Nvidia does not support D3D? What do you guys make of this?

gplracer

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2000
1,768
37
91
I got this from the forum at voodoo source. What do you think this means?
The user wrote as follows:

I recently was in electronic Boutique looking at the VisionTek GeForce cards when my friend Mike, who is the sales rep came over and said hello. We exchanged hellos and how you been's, but then he asked me what I was looking for and told him I was looking at the GF3's. I told him I saw some demos of the Direct3D and OpenGL games they had running in the store on them and saw how good they looked. The next words that came out of his mouth almost gave me a heartattack. He said, and I quote, "NVidia's video cards do not have Direct3D capability." I was like, "Mike, what the hell are you talking about," needless to say several customers gathered around to listen too. He explained it this way:
"Nvidia cards have DirectX capability but that doesn't mean they have Direct3D capability. NVidia uses a D3D emulator called a Normal Image Processor. Basically its a DirectDraw rendered display put through various buffers and tri-linear filter to give it a blurred look, but there is no Direct3D period. To achive FSAA multi-sampling it adds various subroutines to the NIP to clarify the image and further smooth the display. This is also why multi-sampling suffers a greater frame drop than any other video chip. If you look at the NVidia driver sets and read the manifest you'll notice a DDraw32 driver. This is a Hardware Accelerated DirectDraw NIP rendering driver, and thats it. If you look at various older games such as Final Fantasy 7 and games older than that that use Direct3D you'll notice there is no NVidia support. There are patches especially for NVidia cards but this only removes the hardware Direct3D or a Hardware DirectDraw NIP display. So if you are wanting Direct3D support for a game I suggest you either get an ATI, 3dfx, S3, PowerVR, or Matrox based video card."

Needless to say one kid who was standing right beside myself and Mike put the GeForce3 back on the shelf and picked up a Kyro2 instead.

Well, I downloaded the zipped drivers from NVidia and took a look and he was right. There is a DDraw32 driver but no Direct3D driver at all. I also noticed what he meant when I looked at my old Final Fantasy 7, and other games too. There is no NVidia support. I wonder who would dare challange this but if you do look at the drivers there is no Direct3D driver at all period
 

MasterHoss

Platinum Member
Apr 25, 2001
2,323
0
0
Yes, of course it supports D3D. That's a Microsoft thing--it has to support that...otherwise, no MS dominance and since I play a lot of sports games (which are only D3D) using my nVidia card...

 

TMTCC

Member
Mar 31, 2000
152
0
76
Considering the fact that the GeForce3 was hyped to support most or all of the graphical features of DirectX 8, I find it hard to believe it wouldn't support D3D.
 

Boogak

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
3,302
0
0
I'm more surprised you were able to remember all the technical mumbo jumbo he spewed and type it back out when you came home.
 

Burn

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,104
0
0
I second what Boogak said. If I had that kind of memory my grades in university would be sooo much higher! As for as the info all the "technical" words confuse me, but I think that is BS.
 

Noriaki

Lifer
Jun 3, 2000
13,640
1
71
Interesteing...but why would this guy at EB know this when no one else does? Don't you think that someone on the web (Tom, Anand, the boys at Ace's) would have figured this out long before now if it was actually true?

I don't know about that FSAA taking a big frame hit thing....what's he comparing to?
Voodoo5? Not really fair...3dfx did all their R&D in FSAA, nVidia did it in T&L. The GF doesn't do FSAA as well...the V5 doesn't do T&L (at all).
Kyro2? Uhhh...I don't think it's possible for an immediate mode render to do FSAA as effecinetly as a TBR. Saying an IMR isn't as good at FSAA as a TBR is like saying a Turbo charger makes a car faster.
Besides which...the GF3 actually does FSAA quite well.

I'd be curious to know the truth of this...but I don't think it's true.

I can't even see MS granted WHQL cert to drivers like that.
 

Sohcan

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,127
0
0


<< Don't you think that someone on the web (Tom, Anand, the boys at Ace's) would have figured this out long before now if it was actually true? >>

Also, why haven't programmers like John Carmack and Tim Sweeney never mentioned anything like this? And why did Microsoft pick NVidia's NV2X for the XBox if it doesn't even support their own API?
 

nam ng

Banned
Oct 9, 1999
532
0
0
:) Hehe... That's why some experts worked as sale reps and not good for much else, mumbo jumbo is the only technical requirement.
 

Shazam

Golden Member
Dec 15, 1999
1,136
1
0
You were fed a shovel full of BS.

Tell that little flyboy that he is totally wrong about his facts.
 

gplracer

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2000
1,768
37
91
Well I only believe the things I read here at home :) As for remembering it, I copied and pasted it lol
 

GL

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,547
0
0


<< The only 3D chip to my knowledge, that doesn't have a dedicated 3D engine, but is using Direct3D as its API directly, is NVidia's RIVA 128 chip, currently the fastest Direct3D chip available on the market. >>


Dr. Tom
 

Noriaki

Lifer
Jun 3, 2000
13,640
1
71
Oh yeah that's right, while 3dfx was using Glide as their native API, nVidia deisgned the Riva128 around DirectX/D3D as the native API.

Heheh D3D is to the Riva* line and GeForces as Glide is to the Voodoo family. But no, no D3D support at all in the GF3.
 

SaturnX

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2000
3,415
0
76
OK wait, if your friend says that all the graphics are put through various subroutines etc.. to make the conversion, how are the GF line of cards the fastest at &quot;brute&quot; speed? Wouldn't the subrountines cause at least some slow down?




<< Needless to say one kid who was standing right beside myself and Mike put the GeForce3 back on the shelf and picked up a Kyro2 instead. >>



Yes, and then when he runs it he'll realize the mistake he made (excluding all 2D comments about nVidia) and if my memory serves me right, the KyroII doesn't have T&amp;L correct? Overall from reviews I've read the textures aren't as clear/crisp on the KyroII, but oh well.

--Mark
 

Maverick

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2000
5,900
0
71
The description you give makes it seem like all Nvidia cards run a D3D wrapper of some sort. Wrappers are horrible perfomers.

You say that DirectDraw is used to implement the 3D functions of Direct3D. The performance hit from doing such calculations would be too enormous for this to be true. Even with a dedicated NIP to do these calculations, the operation time would be tremendous.

Ever tried to implement a 3D graphic using only 2D coding libraries? Its a complete pain in the ass and doing anything past simple geometry takes enormous amounts of CPU power. Everything from rotation to translation takes tons of operations. The NIP would have to do a lot more than blurring the images to make this work.

The reason that older games don't have Nvidia support is because they were mostly developed for Glide. They just threw in Direct3D support afterwards. Older versions of Direct3D and Glide don't translate over smoothly and may of the same things done in Glide require the work of a combination of Direct3D and DirectDraw. Nvidia cards weren't set to use both in tandem so they required further patches.
 

gplracer

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2000
1,768
37
91
Well this person is not my friend. I just saw this posted on another board and thought it was interesting so I brought it home.
 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
1
0
nVidia could very well use a wrapper to implement D3D support, just like how you can run a Windows98 emulator on a Mac.
 

Shagga

Diamond Member
Nov 9, 1999
4,421
0
76
Well if my GF3 doesn't support D3D, I feel sorry for all those cards that do support it, cos my GF3 smokes em all without support. Just imagine if they did support the GF3. The box says and I Quote .

<< &quot;Optimised for DirectX and OpenGL acceleration&quot; >>



Of Course nVidia supports D3D. Spend more time here at AT and get the right info. There is some knowledgeable guru's here! :)
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,586
6,131
126
I read and responded to that message a couple months back(not sure if my response was at that board or another one). Anyway, who cares? I mean, look at the benches, if they are using a wrapper they are still at the top for performance.

I really don't think that guy knew what he was talking about.
 

GrumpyMan

Diamond Member
May 14, 2001
5,780
265
136
Who cares, my Vtk G3 does just fine thank you very much. The only wrapper I know of goes on me when I have sex. :eek:
 

Finality

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,665
0
0
You really need to stop listening to sales people. There is a reason why they earn $8/hr

jk of course :)
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
The exact same story was posted on 3dnow.net on 27 may 2001.

He said he got it from another UBB.

Facinating how 3 people had identical conversations with a salesman, came to the same conclusions, and were compelled to post their experience on internet forums isn't it???

3dnow.net thread

As for the credibility of the claims, I'll leave that up to you...

Greg