Nuke this . . . FUD

[zinfamous]

Tim Sweeney is smarter than all posters in this thread combined. Maybe smarter than all posters on Anandtech combined. He's of the caliber of John Carmack.

Tim Sweeney also has always been a reasonably quiet guy. In the sense that he was never really outspoken. Always polite. Always cautious. For Sweeney to say something like this, he must really feel this way.

And lastly, Sweeney has always been pro-Microsoft. They were one of the first companies to claim that games-for-PC were not worth it, and all profits were at consoles. He's also not been pro-Linux, but kept defending Windows. He's not an OpenGL adept (like Carmack) but has been defending DirectX. I find it very surprising that Carmack is attacking Microsoft. And defending Steam.

Is he? Because he knows about video games and the video game industry and tech?

Strange qualification for smarts. I have no idea who Jim Sweeney is, but from the text of the article it is abundantly clear that no real research was performed behind these claims.

 

[Dahak]

The only way for them to do this to Steam is to attack the Win32 platform as a whole. <snip>

I see this as somewhat a non issue, for this to be true as as Sabrewings mentioned they would have to break WIN32, and they will not ever do that.

They will loose all the Enterprise/Large business revenues they get from Windows sold to them which amounts into the Billions, so no I do not see that happening

 

[PrincessFrosty]

This is exactly why Valve invested in the steam machines and put effort into maintaining their own OS/Linux Distro, specifically to start ending the dependency of their business on Microsoft and Windows. That has been a long time brewing and is kind of a very forward looking way of re-positioning the business.

I don't think steam OS is going anywhere, it's more of an emergency fire axe that you smash and get access to in time of emergency, the fact it exists and is there to be upgraded and worked on is a great way of forcing Microsoft hand and making sure they do not make things like Steam impossible to use.

I dislike the way that MS has gone with their new OS's we really peaked at Win7 and everything after that has been downhill but I continue to upgrade really for access to DirectX, so unless we see a mass migration away from that to OpenGL I don't see the threat of a Windows monopoly ever being broken for PC gaming.

I think with PCs now getting into the era where general day to day OS usage being so lite vs what hardware we have, or put another way hardware starting to become a solved problem, we can start looking at powerful alternatives such as apps in Open source OS's like Linux launching windows in VMs in order to emulate DirectX and all the windows dependencies modern games have. Right now direct emulation on Linux is pretty bad and a PITA to get working.

 

[wanderer27]

I can verify windows 10 works perfectly fine with steam.
Backward compatibility on very old games can be a problem but we're talking about DX5 or 6 games, something about that version is no longer supported. I still don't get the point, are you saying MS will do something to prevent steam from running and valve will have no way of patching/complying?

Conjecture on my part, but the impression I get from this piece is that UWP is UAC on Steroids.

Access to to the Win System is getting more and more difficult for third party applications. From this, I would think the System allowing access to external (Network) Services is going to be even more challenging/restricted.

For new software developed specifically for Win 10 this may not be too bad, but for legacy or not specific (exclusive) Win 10 programs I could see some possible authentication issues.

This is where I think things could break more than anything else.

I don't know enough about UWP though to nail it down. There's not really enough detail in the first Article.


From the other link, here's the heart of the issue :

The specific problem here is that Microsoft’s shiny new “Universal Windows Platform” is locked down, and by default it’s impossible to download UWP apps from the websites of publishers and developers, to install them, update them, and conduct commerce in them outside of the Windows Store.

It’s true that if you dig far enough into Microsoft’s settings-burying UI, you can find a way to install these apps by enabling “side-loading”. But in turning this off by default, Microsoft is unfairly disadvantaging the competition. Bigger-picture, this is a feature Microsoft can revoke at any time using Windows 10’s forced-update process.

From just this part of it, I can see all kinds of Headaches for users.

Just look at some of the issues (some) users have getting things to install and run now (Steam Forums).

Folks here reading this are not your average Joe Sixpack/Suzy Homemaker, or whatnot, for the most part we're pretty good at getting things working, but I think even we have a few challenges once in awhile.
The average user could have real problems with this.

In regards to future Patching causing issues, yeah, I could see MS integrating this into the OS under the guise of increased Security.

Antitrust issue ?
I would certainly think so, but that hasn't stopped them in the past (IE), and once this gets into to the System . . .

How long did it take the IE issue to get resolved?
It drug on for years.

We get torqued when we can't access our games for a few hours, how do you think this is going to play out?
I think this may be what Sweeney referring to as Steam breaking, and that Steam is mentioned as it's the largest distribution platform.

I don't know, the more I dig, the more I think Sweeney may actually be onto something.



.

 

[Gryz]

Is he?

Yes.

Because he knows about video games and the video game industry and tech?

He doesn't just "know about videogames and tech". He is one of the few individuals who created videogame tech.

He's the guy who designed, created and programmed the Unreal engine himself in the nineties. He's been the leading architect for the Unreal engine since then. (After all, he's one of the founders of Epic Games). He's a purely technical guy, trying not to waste too much time on marketing and other fluff. If there is one person in the games industry who knows what he's talking about, it's Sweeney.

But you probably like some bloggers and dudes on twitter better .....

 

[nerp]

If what I'm getting out of things (may well be incorrect) looking between the lines so to speak - Origin, or basically any Online or Client based gaming is going to have issues.

It is my understanding that Win 10 does not play nice with a lot of software, not just gaming software.
Now in these cases, MS is likely saying it's part of the new OS improvements aka Security features.

Too me, that sounds like they're locking things down more and more, so it may just be part of the process that things will not work as well, or it could be something more.

I don't know, but from what little I've heard, I think there could be a little something to this.


.

That's false. There's nothing to it. Windows 10 does not "not play nice" with games. If anything, it performs better.

 

[nerp]

Conjecture on my part, but the impression I get from this piece is that UWP is UAC on Steroids.

Access to to the Win System is getting more and more difficult for third party applications. From this, I would think the System allowing access to external (Network) Services is going to be even more challenging/restricted.

For new software developed specifically for Win 10 this may not be too bad, but for legacy or not specific (exclusive) Win 10 programs I could see some possible authentication issues.

This is where I think things could break more than anything else.

I don't know enough about UWP though to nail it down. There's not really enough detail in the first Article.


From the other link, here's the heart of the issue :



From just this part of it, I can see all kinds of Headaches for users.

Just look at some of the issues (some) users have getting things to install and run now (Steam Forums).

Folks here reading this are not your average Joe Sixpack/Suzy Homemaker, or whatnot, for the most part we're pretty good at getting things working, but I think even we have a few challenges once in awhile.
The average user could have real problems with this.

In regards to future Patching causing issues, yeah, I could see MS integrating this into the OS under the guise of increased Security.

Antitrust issue ?
I would certainly think so, but that hasn't stopped them in the past (IE), and once this gets into to the System . . .

How long did it take the IE issue to get resolved?
It drug on for years.

We get torqued when we can't access our games for a few hours, how do you think this is going to play out?
I think this may be what Sweeney referring to as Steam breaking, and that Steam is mentioned as it's the largest distribution platform.

I don't know, the more I dig, the more I think Sweeney may actually be onto something.


.

You're digging in the wrong places and pretty much 100% wrong on all fronts. UWP is nothing like UAC at all. You need to learn some fundamentals, much like your misinformed hero. It's a shame to see someone so misguided and wrong and unable to see the actual facts that are freely available. But we all know how people with bias tend to seek out things that support their misconceptions rather than seek truth to challenge their assumptions.

 

[zinfamous]

Yes.

He doesn't just "know about videogames and tech". He is one of the few individuals who created videogame tech.

He's the guy who designed, created and programmed the Unreal engine himself in the nineties. He's been the leading architect for the Unreal engine since then. (After all, he's one of the founders of Epic Games). He's a purely technical guy, trying not to waste too much time on marketing and other fluff. If there is one person in the games industry who knows what he's talking about, it's Sweeney.

But you probably like some bloggers and dudes on twitter better .....

No, I don't read blogs and I don't follow twitter (I've read maybe 5 tweets in my life that were linked for whatever reason).

So, he's smarter than us about video games. That's fine, but I don't care. I don't read video game "news" or blogs, or any sort of blogger anywhere.

Video game..."news" barely passes as interesting. I do like general tech from time to time, and while much more relevant than video games, it just isn't one of those things that captures my day to day--so my ignorance regarding Mr Sweeney is very much real.

But when you consider what Microsoft has already weathered in the past re: IE and WMC, there is simply no way that they wouldn't be facing massive antitrust lawsuits if they actively (or even unexpectedly) implemented this through Win 10 updates. One can argue the legitimacy of the arguments for those earlier plaintiffs, but the fact is that the EU hammered them because of the very same practice.

It makes zero sense that Microsoft would actively seek to repeat the exact same behavior that cost them in the past, much less allow it to happen if their updates and software implementation in Win 10 started pushing this kind of behavior. It also doesn't make any sense from a pure profit standpoint for Microsoft. They aren't going to beat Steam and they know it. Locking out a far more significant percentage of that available market in favor of your own niche market is simply stupid.

 

[TeknoBug]

A Gears of War dev says this? Who publishes Gears of War again?

FUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUD

For what reasons would MS want to botch Steam? It's not like game dev/publisheers on Steam will want to release games on MS Store. MS are already in trouble with anti-trust and some monopoly crap.

And this is actually a time when PC gaming is on the uprise, more popular than ever.

At this point in time I'm surprised that Valve hasn't made their own gaming-focused/friendly operating system, and console as well.

Yeah totally... oh wait.

Right now direct emulation on Linux is pretty bad and a PITA to get working.

Working great for me, running qemu-kvm booting Win 10 Pro off a physical disk with GPU passthrough and I play Project CARS, Planetside 2 and Cities: Skyline often but have a bunch of other games as ewll.

 

[wanderer27]

You're digging in the wrong places and pretty much 100% wrong on all fronts. UWP is nothing like UAC at all. You need to learn some fundamentals, much like your misinformed hero. It's a shame to see someone so misguided and wrong and unable to see the actual facts that are freely available. But we all know how people with bias tend to seek out things that support their misconceptions rather than seek truth to challenge their assumptions.

He's not my Hero, he's a Software expert and game Developer referenced in the Article(s).

There are several ways for this to be implemented, the quotes I referenced from the second Article is the basis of the second part (above) of my understanding of how this works or what the potential issue is.

I didn't write the Article, I'm just trying to decipher it - exact details aren't given.

 

[norseamd]

Irony detector might need an upgrade, I am not sensing it....

For sure.

 

[Artorias]

Gabe was a Microsoft guy and I'm sure he knows what's up, I'm sure Microsoft don't need reminding that Steam is a major contributor to Windows continued usage.

 

[imaheadcase]

I will say that steam is oddly slow on the gaming PC I've been using lately (i7, 24GB RAM, EVO SSD, GTX980 Ti, Windows 10). It takes Steam awhile to startup & load.

That has nothing to do with win 10 though, the more games you buy, the more it takes to load.

 

[Mem]

I think it's pure FUD, Steam and Microsoft OS go together like bread and butter, Microsoft knows this, they won't do anything to damage that for PC gamers.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Gabe was a Microsoft guy and I'm sure he knows what's up, I'm sure Microsoft don't need reminding that Steam is a major contributor to Windows continued usage.

Reminds me of a great story I heard. When valve got steam working good enough that it was growing, MS asked Gabe to come in and talk about how vista(?) could improve the experience. Gabe heads over all excited that he's finally getting some respect from his old colleagues but the meeting turned out to be a high pressure pitch for MS to buy valve & steam. Gabe literally gave them the finger and walked out.
I don't know how true it is but it doesn't sound that unlikely.

 

[DaveSimmons]

I've been a Windows application software developer since back when MS was choking the life out of Netscape, Borland, Watcom, etc. and forcing companies to bundle their Internet Explorer with unrelated products in order to be able to use the user interface "common controls." Want a pull-down list? You gotta bundle IE.

Back in the '90s, Sweeney would have been correct.

Then MS was convicted of abusing their monopoly power.

The company culture has changed a lot in the last 20 years, and especially in the last decade.

MS used to put near zero effort into making the OS and application secure, now they are a leader in offering tools and design methods for security. For example my C++ compiler now nags me if I try to use the old string copy function instead of the new secure version that prevents buffer overruns.

MS has made public APIs that used to be secret, made C# an ISO standard, even made .Net open source.

Since Sweeney offers no evidence for MS having a secret evil plan and has been proven wrong about UWP, I'm going to say "Citation Needed" before accepting his FUD.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Yes.

He doesn't just "know about videogames and tech". He is one of the few individuals who created videogame tech.

He's the guy who designed, created and programmed the Unreal engine himself in the nineties. He's been the leading architect for the Unreal engine since then. (After all, he's one of the founders of Epic Games). He's a purely technical guy, trying not to waste too much time on marketing and other fluff. If there is one person in the games industry who knows what he's talking about, it's Sweeney.

But you probably like some bloggers and dudes on twitter better .....

That doesn't make him above ridicule for spouting off nonsense.

 

[Zenoth]

Wait...

Is Steam Machine actually a thing? It's popular? (Genuine question). That's what some of you guys were referring to about sarcasm and me missing some sort of point? It's true, I completely forgot about it when I replied in my previous post. That's how much of a thing it is to me I guess.

I don't think that Steam becoming progressively worse over time would be a potential "threat" (as it seems to be according to some already) if Valve's Steam Machine and SteamOS were already absorbing the 'shock' as we speak. I sincerely wonder if Steam Machine could "save" Valve in the worst case scenario that's supposed to happen in about five years (when using Steam on Windows 10 would be so bad that we'd be considering 'switching over' to Windows Store). I put enough money on my PC as it is (to make it a decent gaming device), not sure if I would spend (waste) even more on yet another "gaming-dedicated" machine specifically just for my Steam library to work "better".

 

[Anon_lawyer]

I see this as somewhat a non issue, for this to be true as as Sabrewings mentioned they would have to break WIN32, and they will not ever do that.

They will loose all the Enterprise/Large business revenues they get from Windows sold to them which amounts into the Billions, so no I do not see that happening

This, this this. Killing Win32 is for all practical purposes killing Windows for the bulk of the installed base. If it ever happens, it will be decades from now when everyone has so thoroughly migrated to UWP that no one even remembers a Win32 app. And even if that ever happens, deep in the bowels of most Fortune 500s will be some old Win32 apps that must be kept running somehow.

Sweeney seems to have a hugely exaggerated view of the importance of gaming to Windows. Although there have been some good signs recently, Microsoft's approach to PC gaming has mostly fluctuated between benign neglect (slowness of DirectX updates for example) and malign neglect like GFWL. It has always been too small a part of the Windows market to really get much focus. They're not going to blow up Windows just to dominate PC gaming.

If anyone is interested, Peter Bright at Arstechnica gives a thorough debunking here: http://arstechnica.com/information-...microsoft-will-use-windows-10-to-break-steam/

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Yes.

He doesn't just "know about videogames and tech". He is one of the few individuals who created videogame tech.

He's the guy who designed, created and programmed the Unreal engine himself in the nineties. He's been the leading architect for the Unreal engine since then. (After all, he's one of the founders of Epic Games). He's a purely technical guy, trying not to waste too much time on marketing and other fluff. If there is one person in the games industry who knows what he's talking about, it's Sweeney.

But you probably like some bloggers and dudes on twitter better .....

Ah yes, the appeal to authority tactic. No sale. there are a multitude of reasons why the topic of discussion here is highly unlikely to occur. Some have already been pointed out.

Epic is not what it used to be either. Fergusson and Bleszinski left, Tencent bought 48.4 percent of the company, and now the company suddenly has a lot of focus on the PC free-to-play space. The Xbox division looks to have done some horse trading, picking up the Gears franchise and Fergusson in short order. A little reading between the lines about how all of that went down, and my guess is that Sweeney has an axe to grind. :sneaky:

 

[DaveSimmons]

This, this this. Killing Win32 is for all practical purposes killing Windows for the bulk of the installed base. If it ever happens, it will be decades from now when everyone has so thoroughly migrated to UWP that no one even remembers a Win32 app. And even if that ever happens, deep in the bowels of most Fortune 500s will be some old Win32 apps that must be kept running somehow.

Sweeney seems to have a hugely exaggerated view of the importance of gaming to Windows. Although there have been some good signs recently, Microsoft's approach to PC gaming has mostly fluctuated between benign neglect (slowness of DirectX updates for example) and malign neglect like GFWL. It has always been too small a part of the Windows market to really get much focus. They're not going to blow up Windows just to dominate PC gaming.

If anyone is interested, Peter Bright at Arstechnica gives a thorough debunking here: http://arstechnica.com/information-...microsoft-will-use-windows-10-to-break-steam/

Yes, I should have mentioned enterprise / corporate development as a reason why this won't happen.

.Net is used for most new development now, but:
a) Billions of lines of "mission critical" code in win32-using C/C++ and VB exist.
b) A lot of .Net code still drops down to Win32 using p/invoke and such for APIs that are still missing from .Net.

What might happen is Steam will start being forced to show a few UAC prompts when doing things like updating game files if you installed Steam to c: > program files instead of to another drive. The horror!

 

[Stg-Flame]

*Looks at perfectly operational Win 7 OS*

*Goes back to gaming without any issues or cares in the world*

 

[cmdrdredd]

This, this this. Killing Win32 is for all practical purposes killing Windows for the bulk of the installed base. If it ever happens, it will be decades from now when everyone has so thoroughly migrated to UWP that no one even remembers a Win32 app. And even if that ever happens, deep in the bowels of most Fortune 500s will be some old Win32 apps that must be kept running somehow.

Sweeney seems to have a hugely exaggerated view of the importance of gaming to Windows. Although there have been some good signs recently, Microsoft's approach to PC gaming has mostly fluctuated between benign neglect (slowness of DirectX updates for example) and malign neglect like GFWL. It has always been too small a part of the Windows market to really get much focus. They're not going to blow up Windows just to dominate PC gaming.

If anyone is interested, Peter Bright at Arstechnica gives a thorough debunking here: http://arstechnica.com/information-...microsoft-will-use-windows-10-to-break-steam/

Not to mention that their attempt to bring Xbox games to Windows hasn't been that great of an experience. From mGPU support not included to memory leaks and generally poor performance. Quantum Break for example ran pretty badly for me.

 

[tdawg]

*Looks at perfectly operational Win 7 OS*

*Goes back to gaming without any issues or cares in the world*

*Looks at perfectly operational Win 10 OS*

*Goes back to gaming without any issues or cares in the world*

 

[StinkyPinky]

Tim Sweeney is smarter than all posters in this thread combined. Maybe smarter than all posters on Anandtech combined. He's of the caliber of John Carmack.

Tim Sweeney also has always been a reasonably quiet guy. In the sense that he was never really outspoken. Always polite. Always cautious. For Sweeney to say something like this, he must really feel this way.

And lastly, Sweeney has always been pro-Microsoft. They were one of the first companies to claim that games-for-PC were not worth it, and all profits were at consoles. He's also not been pro-Linux, but kept defending Windows. He's not an OpenGL adept (like Carmack) but has been defending DirectX. I find it very surprising that Carmack is attacking Microsoft. And defending Steam.

Sorry, but why is Sweeney smart? Because he makes video games?