:thumbsdown:
It's that kind of retarded logic that gets people like Bush elected President.
Most of America changed their mind about the war after realizing they were snookered.
- Jul 28, 2006
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You are forgetting that Hillary was in the White House herself for 8 years and I am sure had access to tons of intelligence information about Iraq and WMD.
The whole ?cherry picked? argument does not work with her more than anyone else because of that. Also have you ever noticed that Bill Clinton never makes that argument when talking about Iraq, even he thought Iraq still had WMD.
Let?s also not forget that regime change was a Clinton policy as well, he just never took any real action to bring it about.
- Jul 28, 2006
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Craig I don?t think anyone else is using that as an excuse. It was VERY clear what they were voting for. They voted to authorize the President to use force if he felt it was necessary.
Even your own quote from her shows the big flip-flop
It has only been in the last few months that she has gone from being for the war to against the war. You can trace her steps, she has done this in a slowly well calculated way, like everything the Clinton?s do.
I think it will be fun in the next year to watch the people who voted for the war try to out do each other as the anti-war candidate.
OrByte
Diamond Member
- Jul 21, 2000
- 9,303
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all of that is conjecture PJ.
As for this flip flopping business of Hillary's. Rainsford said it best in your OTHER flip flopping thread and I quote:
Some of you might remember a thread I posted a fairly long time ago complaining that many conservatives seem to be only able to see things in black and white, and that their overly simplistic view of EVERYTHING is what drove me away from their side in the first place. Well, this is exactly what I was talking about. The concept that something may have been a good idea at one point, but is no longer a good idea, never seem to occur to them. The constant attacks on people "flip-flopping" might sound clever to them, but they look like absolute morons to the rest of us.
Things can change quite quickly in a war...what was a useful idea over a year ago may no longer be the best move. This is so basic I feel silly explaining it, but apparently it's not quite so obvious to the intellectual car wreck that is Republican ideology.
Send a note to your GOP handlers PJ, the flip flopping argument is soooo last election. Gotta come up with new material!
- Jul 28, 2006
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OrByte I think it is less about Hillary and the flip-flop and more about how she tries to pander to her audience. As the link conjur shows. Hillary says she would have not started the war in Iraq in front of an anti-war Democratic audience.
However just a day before when speaking in front of a Jewish group she talked about what a great threat Iran is and how she would not rule out using force against them.
As I said in the OP, this worked for Bill because he had amazing charisma and warmth, but Hillary lacks all of that. While the press ignored Bill for saying X to one group and Y to another they will point out every time Hillary tries to do the same.
I wonder, is it possible that Obama and Hillary will beat each other up so much in the next year that the door is opened for someone else to sneak in? Such as a Bill Richardson or another moderate Democrat?
However just a day before when speaking in front of a Jewish group she talked about what a great threat Iran is and how she would not rule out using force against them.
The next time she speaks in front of a group of Iranian Americans, I am sure she will talk about the great historic relationship between our countries and how she wants to strengthen those ties.
As I said in the OP, this worked for Bill because he had amazing charisma and warmth, but Hillary lacks all of that. While the press ignored Bill for saying X to one group and Y to another they will point out every time Hillary tries to do the same.
I wonder, is it possible that Obama and Hillary will beat each other up so much in the next year that the door is opened for someone else to sneak in? Such as a Bill Richardson or another moderate Democrat?
i dont support hillary in any way...but..
i think that when it comes to war that the peoples opinion should be taken into account..most people think that the war wasnt worth it..most want out, but want a way that isnt going to end up in genocide....i dont really think its wrong of politicians to change their view to go along with that of the people...i hate these super principled people that could give a crap less what the people say..at least her behavior reflects a willingness to reflect the views of the people..unlike bush who just basically says you guys dont know wtf youre talking about ..IM THE DECIDER
i think that when it comes to war that the peoples opinion should be taken into account..most people think that the war wasnt worth it..most want out, but want a way that isnt going to end up in genocide....i dont really think its wrong of politicians to change their view to go along with that of the people...i hate these super principled people that could give a crap less what the people say..at least her behavior reflects a willingness to reflect the views of the people..unlike bush who just basically says you guys dont know wtf youre talking about ..IM THE DECIDER
Googer
Lifer
- Nov 11, 2004
- 12,576
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Joe Liberman never flip flops. His views are about as steady as the Rocky Mountains during a hurricane. Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, and Nancy Pelosi are about as instable as New Orleans Levys during Hurricane Katrina; they just can't take the pressure and give in.
she isn't a flip flopper. her position on he war hasn't changed. saying she wouldn't have supported the invasion if she was given accurate information (instead of being given lies, falsehoods) is not changing her position.
Googer
Lifer
- Nov 11, 2004
- 12,576
- 7
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Where did she say that? I know you can't provide me with a quote, because she never said that. She said "Saddam Had weapons of Mass Destruction" and that's a fact.
EDIT:
John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi both said the same thing as Hillary, "Saddam has WMDs" "Or Saddam is a Threat to peace and democracy".
Link to Liars and Back tracking.
Oh, for fvck's sake!! Will you all just fvcking STOP with this BS?!?!
Goddamn.
Kerry, Pelosi, Clinton, Kennedy, whoever did NOT, I repeat did NOT have the same intel as the Bush administration. They only saw the scrubbed version of the NIE. They were not made aware of the doubts every intelligence agency had about Saddam's WMDs and its "program-related activities". So, you can stop beating that dead horse. Even the bone are turned to dust from all the beating.
- Jul 28, 2006
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Oh would you quit with the BS!!!
Hillary was in the White House for 8 years!!!!!! She had access along with her husband to all the intelligence, not just the so called 'white washed' version.
BTW Has Hillary ever came out and said she based her decision to go to war because on the faulty intelligence provided to her? Or is that just a story the left likes to pass around to explain how their great leaders could vote for something as awful as war?
If you'd bothered to click the link I posted that you edited out, you'd see she made that claim which is a valid one for the reasons I also stated above which you edited out.
And, btw, would you mind posting a link proving Hillary had access to classified information? I'll assume that Laura has equal access so I'll take a link to that one, too.
RED ALERT, POOFERJOHN:
1998 intelligence <> 2003 intelligence.
Or, are you trying to say it was ok to invade Iraq on 5 year-old intel???
If you'd bothered to read the article at the link I posted above you'd see she made that valid claim in 2004.
Originally posted by: Tab
Yea...
I don't like Hilary much, I don't like McCain and I really just don't like anyone running for office. So, who do I vote for?
Chuck Hagel.
Or worst comes to worst, Dave.
JD50
Lifer
- Sep 4, 2005
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Hey genius, he didn't edit anything out, you posted that link in a different post.
Do you have proof that they only saw the "scrubbed version"? I'm kinda curious, because I have never seen anything showing that they had different intel. We at least know that BJ Bill had the same intel and came to the same conclusion. But I see that you conveniently dismiss that every time this argument comes up.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
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You've got to see the documentary 'Why we fight' .. one of the world's most politically entrenched and profitable industries is tied to every facet of intelligence and politics, and puffing up for conflict wherever possible is good business for those involved.
Intel can't be trusted if you know that it's being twisted to shape the fortunes of a select group by the tune of trillions each decade that more hyped-up wars are sold as 'patriotic'. People are becoming numbed to it, just as Hitler's adventures eventually rocked Germany into a mode of constant war.
dennilfloss
Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
Oh no! A sophisticated politician who uses her brains and understands history, nuances, subtleties and context! Can't have that. We need a good-vs-evil, the-world-is-black-and-white, stay-the-course, using-common-words president.:roll:
So I did. Shoulda gone to bed sooner.
Of course I dismiss it every time. You CANNOT use 5 year-old intel to justify the 2003 invasion. Anyone who tries to is a fool.
As for proof, start reading:
THE STOVEPIPE by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
How conflicts between the Bush Administration and the intelligence community marred the reporting on Iraq?s weapons.
SELECTIVE INTELLIGENCE by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
Donald Rumsfeld has his own special sources. Are they reliable?
The new Pentagon papers - By Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski
A high-ranking military officer reveals how Defense Department extremists suppressed information and twisted the truth to drive the country to war.
Hijacking Catastrophe - by Karen Kwiatkowski (Lt. Col. USAF retired)
Hijacking Catastrophe is powerful, understated, straightforward and educational. In a single meticulously organized hour of evidence and analysis, viewers are treated to a thoughtful explanation of modern American empire, neo-conservatism as a driving force for the current Bush administration.
Video (right-click and Save As)...this requires Real Player (I use Real Alternative) to view
Or, read the book!
What Bush Was Told About Iraq
Key Bush Intelligence Briefing Kept From Hill Panel
Insulating Bush
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5403731">Full text: Conclusions of Senate's Iraq report
Report on the prewar intelligence assessments </a>
Also, note that the NIE that was made available to Congress was released just a few days before the vote on the IWR. And, that NIE was hastily prepared:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB129/part11-nie.pdf
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A43220-2004Jul11?language=printer">Report Says CIA Distorted Iraq Data
Senate Panel Cites Exaggerations in Paper Made Public in 2002</a>
You can really follow the flow of events here:
PBS Frontline: The Dark Side
After 9/11, Vice President Richard Cheney seized the initiative. He pushed to expand executive power, transform America's intelligence agencies and bring the war on terror to Iraq. But first he had to take on George Tenet's CIA for control over intelligence.
I know very little. I know that everything inside me told me that war in Iraq was wrong, that Bush wanted it and that the endlessly changing reasons we had to go to war were lies and fabrications. This was as clear and obvious to me as my right hand. I have no use whatsoever for people's claims they were misled by intelligence and all he other horse sh!t that was dreamed up to stampede the American people into this suicide mission. People who were pro-war, in my opinion are intuitively defective, they have poor judgment and lack humility. They should dismiss from themselves any notion that their opinions can have any validity whatsoever and stop believing in themselves. Their opinions were and can again become dangerous to humanity. If you were for the war please stop voting. Please stop presenting your opinions as if they are worth something. Listen, instead, to other people and try to find out how to listen to your heart. Thank you.
I know very little, but I know that the war was wrong and that the Democrats who voted for it did so either because they are mentally defective as I described above, or because they were cowards who knew that an anti war vote would likely lose them an election. So they are either defective or the kind of slime that would pay others blood for their re-election.
I don't know much, but I know that people can grow and learn deeper wisdom or they can change their minds when the think it will win them an election. I know, therefore, because I can't read minds, that people who were pro war when it was convenient and all the rage and who are now against it and are also politicians may still be the same scum they always were.
I don't know much, but I will vote for somebody who was against the war when it was politically expensive to be against it over anybody who is now against it.
If I don't have that opportunity, because all the people who are intuitively defective are still sure they know what they are doing, and they are, then I will vote for the one who seems to me to be intuitively less defective. Politics is the art of the possible and with so many defectives and so much insanity, not too much is possible.
The war in Iraq is a reflection of who we are. It is our madness writ plain. It is the expression of our intuitive depth and spiritual development. We are a land of Barbarians and a place full of Barbarian pride. We have lost the capacity for organic shame.
I know very little, but I know that the war was wrong and that the Democrats who voted for it did so either because they are mentally defective as I described above, or because they were cowards who knew that an anti war vote would likely lose them an election. So they are either defective or the kind of slime that would pay others blood for their re-election.
I don't know much, but I know that people can grow and learn deeper wisdom or they can change their minds when the think it will win them an election. I know, therefore, because I can't read minds, that people who were pro war when it was convenient and all the rage and who are now against it and are also politicians may still be the same scum they always were.
I don't know much, but I will vote for somebody who was against the war when it was politically expensive to be against it over anybody who is now against it.
If I don't have that opportunity, because all the people who are intuitively defective are still sure they know what they are doing, and they are, then I will vote for the one who seems to me to be intuitively less defective. Politics is the art of the possible and with so many defectives and so much insanity, not too much is possible.
The war in Iraq is a reflection of who we are. It is our madness writ plain. It is the expression of our intuitive depth and spiritual development. We are a land of Barbarians and a place full of Barbarian pride. We have lost the capacity for organic shame.
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
- 392
- 126
Good luck with that. The BushCo shills aren't here to address fact and reason. They're here to parrot the propaganda points, blow smoke, and flee to their next diversion when cornered. We might as well get used to it. Whether PJ is a paid shill or merely auditioning for the job, expect to see his daily swiftboatings through the 2008 elections. He will continue repeating the same disinformation incessantly, never once acknowledging all the previous times it has been exposed as lies.
Spreading propaganda is the only place the Bush administration isn't a total failure. Their "Stay the course" isn't just Iraq. They know how to stay on-message, no matter what.
Edit: typo
Hillary's a lawyer AND a politician.......which pretty much means that whenever sound is coming from her mouth, it's pretty much assured she's lying!
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