Not many teachers get credit for working above and beyond thier duties.

[PokerGuy]

Fallacy.

It sounds good until you see than many places have reduced this vacation time, and/or require it to include schooling during the summer (sounds great until you are 50 years old and still taking classes).

Even so, they still get way more vacation than the average corporate drone that gets 10 - 15 days per year.

Many times vacation times like Spring Break are used to catch up on paperwork, which is not adequately accounted for during normal operating hours (you do not get enough prep time for grading, planning, making tests and assignments, etc).

Oh cry me a river, you don't think the average person working in an office works a ton of overtime to get their job done as well? Why is it any different for a teacher? If I work 10 hours of overtime this week to get my job done, you know how much more I get paid? $0. That's because I choose to work a job where there is no paid overtime.

Also, your vacation time is set. Something you will become QUITE aware of when you have kids. Just from the Parental side of it, you may be used to going to the beach, or skiing, or to a resort when YOU want to. When YOU have time or when the rates are low. But once you have a kid, you are STRONGLY encouraged to take it when they have vacation... and so does every other parent's kids.

So what? If you're a police officer, you have to know that you might have to work some nights as well. That comes with the job. If you don't like it, go do something else. If you have kids, you're limited to when you can go on vacation anyway because they are in school. Why is that different than for teachers?

So, unless the teacher is a total F-up, "Vacation" is not as good as it is for the rest of us working people.

Baloney. No matter how you slice it, they have a ton more days off than people who work in other professions. I'm not saying they shouldn't, it's part of the "pro" part of the job, just like there are "con" parts.

 

[Ausm]

Administration does not care about extra effort.

Some parents will appreciate

I think they should Unionize management.

 

[DrPizza]

Then why does my son's band teacher live in a house that's as nice, or better than, mine and drive a Lexus? Yes, I know, isolated case. If a teacher stays with it, and gets a masters, they eventually make pretty decent money. If they coach a sport, they get extra money as well. And when they retire (as early as their mid-late 50s if they want) they have a nice retirement / benefit package.

In my state and many other states, it's not "and gets a masters." A master's degree is demanded. Unless I'm mistaken, statistics say that the average pay for someone with a master's degree is higher than the average pay for a teacher with a master's degree. In my opinion, it's a pointless expectation to get a master's degree; I doubt it improves teaching skills by any significant amount.

Baloney. No matter how you slice it, they have a ton more days off than people who work in other professions. I'm not saying they shouldn't, it's part of the "pro" part of the job, just like there are "con" parts.

Again, unless my memory is incorrect, the total number of hours worked per year by a teacher is very similar or the same to many other professions. Now, as far as the "more days off" - there are a lot of people (e.g., nurses) who work three 12-hour shifts per week and get paid for full time. That's 150 days of work per year; 30-something less than a teacher.

Even so, they still get way more vacation than the average corporate drone that gets 10 - 15 days per year.

Not more than the average corporate drone in other successful countries - (Germany). Perhaps the corporate drones getting screwed over by the mantra "you're lucky our company is even willing to give you the opportunity to work for us, your purpose in life is to work" should do something about it.

 

[Ausm]

Wrong!

Guessing that you have at least a decent HS education; you can thank your rutted teachers.

Many teachers also lecture out in the free world. They just enjoy teaching.

With the Republican's Jhad on Public education, I could see this changing rapidly.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I think they should Unionize management.

And screw the teachers even more?

Unions making decisions for a union.

fox guarding the hen house.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Many private sector jobs don't give overtime for salaried employees either. And in many cases, employees wind up getting the same raise as everyone else. Not universal, obviously, but still the case for many ppeople.

Also, most private sector employees don't get to retire with a nice pension / benefit package after 30 years.

The number of hours expected and given by a teacher significantly outpaces any (legal) industry that does not offer any compensation for those hours (pay OR bonus).

And that Pension plan was paid for by the teachers union. It is not free. AAMOF, those pension funds were raided by Christine Todd Whitmann and never paid back in NJ. So not only do teachers pay for their own retirement, they have that money taken and not returned by the state!

 

[Ausm]

And screw the teachers even more?

Unions making decisions for a union.

fox guarding the hen house.

That sounds more like Wall Street and the Fed. 😉

 

[Ninjahedge]

their "credit" is 3 months off/year (or the free time to work a second job, aka: summer school)

Bullshit.

 

[FerrelGeek]

Yeah - not every school pays more for a masters or gives out yearly pay increases

Not disagreeing with you, but in the 3 differenct school systems that my kids have been in they have received both.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Even so, they still get way more vacation than the average corporate drone that gets 10 - 15 days per year.

I am quite aware of that.

Here's the thing. If it is so great, why are there shortages? Why do so many teachers LEAVE after a few years?

The whole magical "free market" should say that if teaching were so easy, so profitable, and so great that there would be a line of people banging down the door to start.

There isn't. Especially in Math Science and Tech.

Oh cry me a river, you don't think the average person working in an office works a ton of overtime to get their job done as well? Why is it any different for a teacher? If I work 10 hours of overtime this week to get my job done, you know how much more I get paid? $0. That's because I choose to work a job where there is no paid overtime.

The last 5 jobs I have had have either paid OT or have given a bonus based on your OT/productivity for the year. Teachers do not get that.

And after seeing my mother up EVERY NIGHT until 10+ grading papers, making lesson plans and tests and the like, I fail to see where your measly 10 hours even compares.

Who is crying a river now?

So what? If you're a police officer, you have to know that you might have to work some nights as well. That comes with the job. If you don't like it, go do something else. If you have kids, you're limited to when you can go on vacation anyway because they are in school. Why is that different than for teachers?

BIL is a cop. You are really standing on grounds you know nothing about PG.

As I said before, there is a SHORTAGE of qualified teachers (NYC had a problem with that a while back). People do NOT become teachers for the pay, the time off, or any other of the reasons you have stated. THEY ARE FALLACIES.

And, as was stated by another, you have more latitude with a kid than a teacher has when it comes to vacation time and when you can use it.

Baloney. No matter how you slice it, they have a ton more days off than people who work in other professions. I'm not saying they shouldn't, it's part of the "pro" part of the job, just like there are "con" parts.

You really do not know. You know that they are actually not paid for that time "off" right? No paychecks over the summer. Oh, they can work on their own? Not likely. There are not enough tutoring jobs around, and they pay crap. Also, your time is restricted due to the classes you need to take over the summer.

I suggest you read up on this before you repost. And I mean READ, not simply absorb by Internet Osmosis and then regurgitate it all back up on the board.

 

[FerrelGeek]

Correct. Not only that, but in many cases teacher vacation / sick time is cumulative. If you don't take it, you can cash it in when you retire for increased time on the job, i.e., more pension pay. My dad ended his working career as a teacher and that's exactly what he did. In the private sector, you can in some cases accumulate an additional week of vacation but in the end if you don't use it, you lose it. Same goes for sick time. And most companies are pretty stingy with sick time and the ones that give you more sick time start 'taking note' of you if you tend to use most of it each year. Some companies have a policy wher they give you x days per year to use for sick / vacation time; so if you get really sick, you've blown your vacation time for the year. Most companies start you out at 2 weeks vacation and you have to work 5-7 years to get the third and another 5-7 (or more) to get a fourth week.

Even so, they still get way more vacation than the average corporate drone that gets 10 - 15 days per year.

Oh cry me a river, you don't think the average person working in an office works a ton of overtime to get their job done as well? Why is it any different for a teacher? If I work 10 hours of overtime this week to get my job done, you know how much more I get paid? $0. That's because I choose to work a job where there is no paid overtime.

So what? If you're a police officer, you have to know that you might have to work some nights as well. That comes with the job. If you don't like it, go do something else. If you have kids, you're limited to when you can go on vacation anyway because they are in school. Why is that different than for teachers?

Baloney. No matter how you slice it, they have a ton more days off than people who work in other professions. I'm not saying they shouldn't, it's part of the "pro" part of the job, just like there are "con" parts.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Teachers can get burned up quickly and leave.

When they get abused by students; despised by parents, ignored by administration; pushed around by politics that they have no control over; the initial glow of helping a child looses it's luster quickly.

child deserves a D
child throws a fit
Parent shows up after 8 months wondering why the child got a D.
Show them the records.
Parent complains to admin - threatens holy hell
Admin buckles under to Parent
Orders grade change to a C


Next child gets an F
Never showing up for class
No homework
Parents not responding to advisories
Parents complain - F will cause 16 yr old Johnny to have to repeat 8th grade.
Admin bumps Johnny up

 

[PokerGuy]

Again, unless my memory is incorrect, the total number of hours worked per year by a teacher is very similar or the same to many other professions.

If memory serves, the average full time worker works 43 or so hours per week in the US, while the average teacher works about 37 hours. Not sure about that though. That's 6 hours per week difference, or roughly (assuming 8 hours per full day) 38 fewer days of work per year. That's including the hours many claim to work at home on lesson plans and preparation. Good teachers certainly do that (and more!), but I'm sure many of the 'so-so' teachers don't work nearly that many hours as claimed.

Again, I'm not saying they don't deserve it or should work more or anything like that, but I certainly don't want to hear whining about work hours when someone (on average) works 38 fewer days per year than the average worker.

Not more than the average corporate drone in other successful countries - (Germany). Perhaps the corporate drones getting screwed over by the mantra "you're lucky our company is even willing to give you the opportunity to work for us, your purpose in life is to work" should do something about it.

That's a discussion for another thread. You may very well be right about that, but it's not relevant for this thread. Whining about the overtime and lack of recognition for teachers doesn't make sense if the same thing is true for just about every other profession in this country.

 

[PokerGuy]

Teachers can get burned up quickly and leave.

When they get abused by students; despised by parents, ignored by administration; pushed around by politics that they have no control over; the initial glow of helping a child looses it's luster quickly.

Very true, it can be a very thankless job when the parents don't want to participate in the education of the kids.

 

[FerrelGeek]

THIS is the heart of the problem. On the other side, tenure makes it nearly impossible to get rid of poor performing teachers. Both of these issues need to be addressed.

Teachers can get burned up quickly and leave.

When they get abused by students; despised by parents, ignored by administration; pushed around by politics that they have no control over; the initial glow of helping a child looses it's luster quickly.

child deserves a D
child throws a fit
Parent shows up after 8 months wondering why the child got a D.
Show them the records.
Parent complains to admin - threatens holy hell
Admin buckles under to Parent
Orders grade change to a C


Next child gets an F
Never showing up for class
No homework
Parents not responding to advisories
Parents complain - F will cause 16 yr old Johnny to have to repeat 8th grade.
Admin bumps Johnny up

 

[Ninjahedge]

Very true, it can be a very thankless job when the parents don't want to participate in the education of the kids.

Agreed on that one.



PG, on the hour thing, teachers time at home is not documented. If you do not PAY them for time spent (and do not bill a client for it), there is no need for them to log 3 hours a night at home.

Also, with school starting earlier (7:30 in some areas to 3:00) the hours per day are nearly what they are in the business sector. (7 hours per diem, plus teachers are expected to stay 30 minutes a day, and something like 1-2 hours once a week).

Then there are things like the PTA meetings, conferences and after school programs (most do not pay).

The only teachers that get plenty of vacation time and do not work all these hours are the ones that don't give a shit. There is a notable percentage of them too.

The problem is, if you make them vulnerable by removing tenure, all you get is politics (my own HS where the department chair had some... legal problems had his own old boy network in where a few science teachers that had the worst records almost in the STATE were his pals and would never be gotten rid of, but one that was ACKNOWLEDGED BY THE STATE as one of the best was constantly leveraged against....).

The system can't be pruned here and there to fix it without killing it. there are too many factions tied up in it. The problem is, the people that would suffer the worst would be the kids, and 20 years later, the country.

 

[Exterous]

Not disagreeing with you, but in the 3 differenct school systems that my kids have been in they have received both.

It could very well be by state. I know the state of MI made the decision to require continuing education while prohibiting paying more for it

Teachers can get burned up quickly and leave.

When they get abused by students; despised by parents, ignored by administration; pushed around by politics that they have no control over; the initial glow of helping a child looses it's luster quickly.
(snip)

Many schools even tried letting the parents decide whether a kid should repeat a class based on grade. At my wife's school - until the mid point this year - the parents got the final decision. My wife would have seniors in advanced math or spanish that hadn't passed a math or spanish class since middle school but the parents kept moving them 'so they could be with their friends/graduate on time'. I'm sure you can imagine what kind of students they were...

If memory serves, the average full time worker works 43 or so hours per week in the US, while the average teacher works about 37 hours. Not sure about that though. That's 6 hours per week difference, or roughly (assuming 8 hours per full day) 38 fewer days of work per year. That's including the hours many claim to work at home on lesson plans and preparation. Good teachers certainly do that (and more!), but I'm sure many of the 'so-so' teachers don't work nearly that many hours as claimed.

Again, I'm not saying they don't deserve it or should work more or anything like that, but I certainly don't want to hear whining about work hours when someone (on average) works 38 fewer days per year than the average worker.

Well - taking your numbers as accurate that means they work 86% of the hours worked by non-teachers. According to payscale.com the average Masters Degree with 1-4 years of exp will pay $48,000. The average teacher with a Masters and 1-4 years will get $37,000 or 78% of the pay. So it would appear that even adjusted for those reported hours worked teachers are paid less than average for the amount of time they spend working (The average should be about $5,000 more a year to make it even)

 

[EagleKeeper]

7 hours in class; usually at least 30 minutes prior and one hour after = 8.5 hours
2-3 hours a day in the evening working on prep/grading, etc.

That is 10-11 hours of work each day. Only getting paid for 7.

Advanced education - usually on their own time and $$.
May get a $10-$20K boost after completion of a Masters depending on school district policies.

 

[nanette1985]

I majored in mathematics. Real mathematics, not some watered down version for "math education" majors. I have a great big award (that I'll probably frame some day) and a big plaque for being ranked number 1 after my junior year out of ALL the students on campus. (And I accomplished this while working full time AND coaching youth soccer.) I think I have employable skills, and certainly don't feel like I'm in a rut. I think I do a decent job teaching as well. Out of the seniors I teach in calculus, 50% of them are going into engineering; one accepted into aerospace engineering at MIT. I'd say they learned something in math; I've had them for the past two years of classes (plus I had each of those students in my physics class last year - apparently they learned that as well.) Given my skills, the pay isn't great. Then again, for the cost of living in my area, the pay is very good.

Thank you and congratulations.

 

[Fenixgoon]

lol at the bitching about teachers not working.

teachers teach during the day, yes. then they have to go home and grade papers, plan lessons, and do all other sorts of nonsense required of them.

teaching is, quite frankly, damn near a 24/7 job. i can tell you that every teacher i know of puts many hours PER DAY beyond those in the classroom.

 

[FerrelGeek]

Again, some of this is local. In our current school system, the teachers get compensated for EVERY extra-curricular activity: open houses, conferences, recording grades, etc. We have several 'early dismissals' each year, more than any other school system that we've belonged to. They also have 'teacher education days' as well. Coincidently, they fall on election day.

Agreed on that one.



PG, on the hour thing, teachers time at home is not documented. If you do not PAY them for time spent (and do not bill a client for it), there is no need for them to log 3 hours a night at home.

Also, with school starting earlier (7:30 in some areas to 3:00) the hours per day are nearly what they are in the business sector. (7 hours per diem, plus teachers are expected to stay 30 minutes a day, and something like 1-2 hours once a week).

Then there are things like the PTA meetings, conferences and after school programs (most do not pay).

The only teachers that get plenty of vacation time and do not work all these hours are the ones that don't give a shit. There is a notable percentage of them too.

The problem is, if you make them vulnerable by removing tenure, all you get is politics (my own HS where the department chair had some... legal problems had his own old boy network in where a few science teachers that had the worst records almost in the STATE were his pals and would never be gotten rid of, but one that was ACKNOWLEDGED BY THE STATE as one of the best was constantly leveraged against....).

The system can't be pruned here and there to fix it without killing it. there are too many factions tied up in it. The problem is, the people that would suffer the worst would be the kids, and 20 years later, the country.

 

[Exterous]

Again, some of this is local. In our current school system, the teachers get compensated for EVERY extra-curricular activity: open houses, conferences, recording grades, etc. We have several 'early dismissals' each year, more than any other school system that we've belonged to. They also have 'teacher education days' as well. Coincidently, they fall on election day.

Honestly thats part of what annoys me so much. People take places where teachers are paid outrageous sums of money/get insane retirement benefits etc and then apply that to all teachers. Believe me - not everyone gets those things. I can tell you that my wife does not get any extra pay for conferences, chaperoning, or open houses. Most clubs do not offer additional pay for time either

Frankly it sounds like my wife should come work at your school district. Those teachers are spoiled! 😛

 

[nanette1985]

You really do not know. You know that they are actually not paid for that time "off" right? No paychecks over the summer. Oh, they can work on their own? Not likely. There are not enough tutoring jobs around, and they pay crap. Also, your time is restricted due to the classes you need to take over the summer.

Things are different in different places and different fields.

When I was a teacher I had the option of getting checks all year round instead of getting more money in my monthly pay. My daughter the math teacher also has that choice. There are better jobs than tutoring. Daughter does accounting & bookkeeping in the summers - that's what she did during college to pay her college expenses. She's not required to take classes over the summer. She already has her Masters in Math and another Masters in Special Ed - both required to get her job. Teaching Special EdMath is challenging.

 

[sunzt]

anybody that makes a career out of teaching is in a rut or has no employable job skills in the real job market.

LOL this guy is hilarious. Troll of the day award to you, sir.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Honestly thats part of what annoys me so much. People take places where teachers are paid outrageous sums of money/get insane retirement benefits etc and then apply that to all teachers. Believe me - not everyone gets those things. I can tell you that my wife does not get any extra pay for conferences, chaperoning, or open houses. Most clubs do not offer additional pay for time either

Frankly it sounds like my wife should come work at your school district. Those teachers are spoiled! 😛

Chaperoning is paid only slightly more than baby Sitting.

Coaching is paid nominally. If you are a good coach, your pay per hour is dismal.

Conferences and PTA meetings are not paid for.

At least, that is for NJ.