Not many teachers get credit for working above and beyond thier duties.

[Exterous]

I have no need to prove anything to you. I also have no need to convince you of anything. You can believe whatever wrong things you want to believe.

I'll continue to believe what I know, from experience, to be true.

Please - thats the cheap easy way out. Basically 'I can't find anything beyond my own tiny and insignificant experiences to prove my point so I'll just go with 'I don't need to prove anything''. If what you say is true it should be pretty damn easy to prove it given that we live in an age of unparalleled information access.

But - hey - you have fun sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "Lalalalala I believe what I want even though there is nothing really supporting my view it lalalala"

 

[zsdersw]

Please - thats the cheap easy way out. Basically 'I can't find anything beyond my own tiny and insignificant experiences to prove my point so I'll just go with 'I don't need to prove anything''. If what you say is true it should be pretty damn easy to prove it given that we live in an age of unparalleled information access.

But - hey - you have fun sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "Lalalalala I believe what I want even though there is nothing really supporting my view it lalalala"

The bolded part demonstrates how idiotic about this you're being. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes, we do live in an age of unparalleled information access... but that doesn't mean the information that's out there is accurate, factual, current, or relevant.

 

[Exterous]

The bolded part demonstrates how idiotic about this you're being. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes, we do live in an age of unparalleled information access... but that doesn't mean the information that's out there is accurate, factual, current, or relevant.

Really? You think your experiences with the nation's school system is more than tiny and insignificant? I would be curious to know what makes it more than that. Nothing you have posted so far has given any indication that it is otherwise. There are over 140,000 schools in the US - how many of those do you have experience with? Is your sampling statistically varied enough to represent an accurate sampling?

I'll admit that my own experiences are tiny and insignificant which is why I bothered to do research on it. I also would have thought that you would be able to apply rational analysis of information and sources but perhaps that is asking too much (I did supply you with a document that analyzed the official state wide documents for every charter and public school in the state - which I will bet that you never bothered reading)

Look - I am pushing you so much because at times it seems like you have a good head on your shoulder but you can't seem to get past your own bias. (At least thats what it looks like when you can't back anything up) I am challenging you to prove it because, at the moment, your beliefs don't seem to be based on anything concrete. That makes you no better than the people who denounce gays because, based on their limited experiences, its a choice and they can cherry pick a couple factually incorrect/distorted sources to show its bad for society

Good data is good data. It doesn't support a side because of what the side stands for. You got close with the national salary piece. Thats why I dug into it so much. I would love it if they included more detail about the sourcing and breakdown of their information. Maybe Michigan is an anomaly but without knowing the % of charter schools they did not get information from and the % of opinionated vs factual information you shouldn't really base much off of it

If you can provide evidence to actually back up your claims then I will admit I was wrong (I've even done it before in P&N) - hell, I'll even start a new thread titled 'I was wrong' but until then all the evidence I have read (including whats here in this thread) and based my stance off of supports my claim and discredits yours

I hope for better from you, particularly because critical thinking seems to be a rarity today, but perhaps I was wrong and you are just a smart idiot (Not that that necessarily matters to you in the slightest)

Anyway - I'll leave you alone now if you want. If you do ever come up with anything substantial, even if its a ways down the road, feel free to PM it to me. I am almost always up for data analysis and a re-evaluation of my stances on important issues

 

[zsdersw]

I don't particularly care whether you believe me or not. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is.

 

[Exterous]

I don't particularly care whether you believe me or not. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is.

And you care so little you felt the need to tell me that. Apparently you cared enough to spend the time typing that.

I still think its interesting you tell me that I am wrong yet cannot actually prove that I am by disproving the evidence I have provided. But, hey, why try to be different than the people who believe the earth is flat or that gays are evil and be burdened by the need to substantiate your beliefs

 

[zsdersw]

And you care so little you felt the need to tell me that. Apparently you cared enough to spend the time typing that.

A few seconds; not very precious.

I still think its interesting you tell me that I am wrong yet cannot actually prove that I am by disproving the evidence I have provided. But, hey, why try to be different than the people who believe the earth is flat or that gays are evil and be burdened by the need to substantiate your beliefs

I've been to nation-wide conferences for school administrators (AASA, in particular) where many of these same issues come up and are discussed. From the conversations I've had with school administrators from around the country I am very confident in the aggregate of my opinions as expressed in this thread.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Someone didn't like his teachers in high school, eh?
Tell us more how conservatives feel about teachers, please.

Explain your "rationale" for extrapolating from one person's opinion as a representation of how conservatives feel about teachers, please.

Did you ever take a logic class while you were in school?

 

[Exterous]

A few seconds; not very precious.

And the time continues to mount...

I've been to nation-wide conferences for school administrators (AASA, in particular) where many of these same issues come up and are discussed. From the conversations I've had with school administrators from around the country I am very confident in the aggregate of my opinions as expressed in this thread.

Well, its good to know that you can just ignore/dismiss studies comparing charter and public schools - not that I find it all that surprising given that you couldn't even be bothered to read what I linked. I know that the AASA has never once officially even hinted that unions were the sole cause of a states educational financial problems. I also know for a fact that the AASA has given speaking time to the authors of the report I linked in order to better evaluate the role of charter schools in our system so even the AASA deems the information contained in it important, valid and relevant

 

[zsdersw]

Well, its good to know that you can just ignore/dismiss studies comparing charter and public schools - not that I find it all that surprising given that you couldn't even be bothered to read what I linked. I know that the AASA has never once officially even hinted that unions were the sole cause of a states educational financial problems. I also know for a fact that the AASA has given speaking time to the authors of the report I linked in order to better evaluate the role of charter schools in our system so even the AASA deems the information contained in it important, valid and relevant

They don't have to officially hint at it for it to be a common experience for many of their members.

 

[Exterous]

They don't have to officially hint at it for it to be a common experience for many of their members.

Many members =/= an entire state. Wouldn't you think that if there was an entire state that had one single point of failure for the education system that the AASA would officially mention it? Or the anti-union crowd? That there would be some news story somewhere pointing it out? Or some study? Yet there is nothing at all out there that says unions are would be the sole cause of a states educational financial problems

 

[zsdersw]

Many members =/= an entire state. Wouldn't you think that if there was an entire state that had one single point of failure for the education system that the AASA would officially mention it? Or the anti-union crowd? That there would be some news story somewhere pointing it out? Or some study? Yet there is nothing at all out there that says unions are would be the sole cause of a states educational financial problems

AASA is a national organization; when many members from across the country are saying similar things it's more than just a state-level problem.

School administrators have to be guarded in what they say officially, like anyone else under public scrutiny.

 

[PokerGuy]

I know that the AASA has never once officially even hinted that unions were the sole cause of a states educational financial problems.

I haven't read every post in this thread, so forgive me if I missed this, but who claimed unions were the sole cause? They are one of the big causes, but definitely not the sole cause.

 

[zsdersw]

I haven't read every post in this thread, so forgive me if I missed this, but who claimed unions were the sole cause? They are one of the big causes, but definitely not the sole cause.

I did.. because they are, in many districts in some states. In others it is, as you say, among the biggest causes.

 

[Ninjahedge]

That is a fallacy.

It is a classic blame game. Focus the fault on one entity and claim their existence is the main reason for failure and that without removing it you will not fix the problem.

So, even when many other things contribute, they are never fully focused on.

Also, if the unions were eliminated, and the problems STILL did not go away, there is very little chance of them coming back. Breaking an organization has lasting effects. Kick out the keystone to organized labor and it will take a lot of time and effort to rebuild that arch.

 

[zsdersw]

That is a fallacy.

Says you. But you have as much of a right to be wrong as anyone else.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Says you. But you have as much of a right to be wrong as anyone else.

Yes says me. You keep saying a lot of things Z, but with very little proof thereof.

You blame everything on the Unions, but cannot find any proof of that. You are refuted with costs or operation and scores compared between (comparable) institutions and you still dance around Wisconsin.

The Union Monster is the big white elephant that many things will solve all their problems if taken for its tusks.

All it does is turn the Education department into the next governmental Wal-Mart at the expense of our children.

An expense that NOBODY will see for a good 10-20 years when the majority our kids get doubly ass-whooped by "average" kids from other countries.

 

[zsdersw]

Yes says me. You keep saying a lot of things Z, but with very little proof thereof.

You blame everything on the Unions, but cannot find any proof of that. You are refuted with costs or operation and scores compared between (comparable) institutions and you still dance around Wisconsin.

The Union Monster is the big white elephant that many things will solve all their problems if taken for its tusks.

All it does is turn the Education department into the next governmental Wal-Mart at the expense of our children.

An expense that NOBODY will see for a good 10-20 years when the majority our kids get doubly ass-whooped by "average" kids from other countries.

Wrong. Nothing provided about costs or operation and scores has refuted what I said. I've said the following:

1. 80-90% of public school personnel costs are for union member salaries/benefits, with only 10-20% for administration and other non-union employees.

2. A contract-mandated 4% raise for union members will cost the district a lot more than a 4% raise (or even an 8% raise) for administrators and other non-union employees. This is simple math: when a huge chunk of the employees are union.. a raise that all union employees get will cost a lot more than a raise provided to the much smaller group of non-union employees.

3. Union contracts made in one year that require raises in subsequent years, whether or not the school can afford it in those subsequent years, are what breaks school budgets... and the key problem that union reforms/elimination will address.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Wrong. Nothing provided about costs or operation and scores has refuted what I said. I've said the following:

1. 80-90% of public school personnel costs are for union member salaries/benefits, with only 10-20% for administration and other non-union employees.

How many people are teachers and how many are admin?

Also, eliminate the janitorial and maintenance staff from those numbers and look at the disparity of funds spent compared to actual number of people employed.

2. A contract-mandated 4% raise for union members will cost the district a lot more than a 4% raise (or even an 8% raise) for administrators and other non-union employees. This is simple math: when a huge chunk of the employees are union.. a raise that all union employees get will cost a lot more than a raise provided to the much smaller group of non-union employees.

That raise is also a misconception. That 4% is for the whole shebang. the problem I have seen is that the numbers used are usually for the district and not separated between union and non. So 4% goes to everyone. 3% is actually what the union gets. That is TOTAL, not a step up in the ladder. So if the ladder has the teacher with 10 years experience getting a $1000 raise for getting to year 11, that is subtracted from the pool.

Fully experienced teachers that have been working there long and have gotten to the top of the scale get very little (as an example, I am familiar with one individual who was earning approximately $80K after 20 years in and a masters degree plus 60 in math/science. Their raise was $500. That does NOT compare to the "free market")

3. Union contracts made in one year that require raises in subsequent years, whether or not the school can afford it in those subsequent years, are what breaks school budgets... and the key problem that union reforms/elimination will address.

You would rather have time, and money wasting negotiations EVERY YEAR? That simply does not work. there is no "profit sharing" in public service. Your school will not have a "good year" and offer "bonuses". If a municipality cannot plan its finances more than a year in advance (with stipulations) then they are poor planners. BUSINESSES should not do this either, but they do, to the long term detriment of their own companies.

Blaming POSSIBLE bad times coming is not a viable excuse for short shrifting someone unless there was some equitable recompense if things were NOT as bad as anticipated.

 

[zsdersw]

How many people are teachers and how many are admin?

Also, eliminate the janitorial and maintenance staff from those numbers and look at the disparity of funds spent compared to actual number of people employed.

From a budget perspective, you cannot eliminate custodians, secretaries, and aides because they're also union (AFSCME, usually).

That raise is also a misconception. That 4% is for the whole shebang. the problem I have seen is that the numbers used are usually for the district and not separated between union and non. So 4% goes to everyone. 3% is actually what the union gets. That is TOTAL, not a step up in the ladder. So if the ladder has the teacher with 10 years experience getting a $1000 raise for getting to year 11, that is subtracted from the pool.

Fully experienced teachers that have been working there long and have gotten to the top of the scale get very little (as an example, I am familiar with one individual who was earning approximately $80K after 20 years in and a masters degree plus 60 in math/science. Their raise was $500. That does NOT compare to the "free market")

Steps and lanes in teacher pay scales are even more expensive than general percentage salary raises.. and don't help make whatever point you were trying to make. I'd like teacher pay to be merit-based. That way there wouldn't be a top end of the scale beyond which you wouldn't get anything extra.

You would rather have time, and money wasting negotiations EVERY YEAR? That simply does not work. there is no "profit sharing" in public service. Your school will not have a "good year" and offer "bonuses". If a municipality cannot plan its finances more than a year in advance (with stipulations) then they are poor planners. BUSINESSES should not do this either, but they do, to the long term detriment of their own companies.

Blaming POSSIBLE bad times coming is not a viable excuse for short shrifting someone unless there was some equitable recompense if things were NOT as bad as anticipated.

No, I'd rather not do negotiations at all. Yes, schools do have "good years" and "bad years"... as most schools' funding is determined by enrollment figures. If enrollment goes down they receive less state funding, up they get more. When enrollment goes down and union contracts force personnel costs higher, guess what happens? A busted budget.

 

[EagleKeeper]

While school/teacher unions may not be the millstone ; they are an albatross that should be removed.

And also more accountability by the upper administration to the taxpayer. Many times the school boards act as if they are the ones in charge and the taxpayer needs to grant the genie.

Administration needs to be pared down based on school size and handed responsibility/control to run the school.

 

[zsdersw]

And also more accountability by the upper administration to the taxpayer. Many times the school boards act as if they are the ones in charge and the taxpayer needs to grant the genie.

Administration needs to be pared down based on school size and handed responsibility/control to run the school.

Absolutely.