Nosy government and schools ?

[William Gaatjes]

When it comes to schools, i was not aware that the schools in the USA where really that bad ? I never knew that people where not allowed to make a free choice of which school there children will attend. I am beginning to understand the frustration and hatred against the nosy government in the USA. Because i compare it with what i know in the west of Europe. And people always say that the US is the land of the free. Is this still the case in the US or have things changed dramatically ? And those teacher unions are a disgrace. That is like a maffia.

 

[Brainonska511]

Pulls up lawnchair and grabs a beer...

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You can choose schools. Public school in your area, or any number of private schools.

The teachers' union is not one horrible entity. In some areas, it is okay, in others it is ridiculous. Administrators and parents also shoulder blame.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

OP is English your native language?

 

[Red Dawn]

OP is English your native language?

He's Dutch

 

[William Gaatjes]

He's Dutch

Only the smart people who read figure it out... :thumbsup:

 

[MovingTarget]

Pulls up lawnchair and grabs a beer...

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You can choose schools. Public school in your area, or any number of private schools.

The teachers' union is not one horrible entity. In some areas, it is okay, in others it is ridiculous. Administrators and parents also shoulder blame.

This. Although true public school choice is probably inevitable (with or without vouchers), many American schools would become much more economically and racially segregated if parents could choose any public school to go to. We should address the huge inequalities between neighboring school districts first, otherwise it would be a disaster to allow it.

Parents still have the choice of going to a private school, homeschooling, or moving into another school district. Even then, you can still apply for a transfer of your child if the local school does not offer something that would benefit the child (advanced/special classes, IB programs, vocational programs, etc.) Then there are such entities as magnet schools, charter schools, etc.

These choices exist, but I don't think that this is the issue that many have against "nosy government".

 

[William Gaatjes]

Pulls up lawnchair and grabs a beer...

-------------
You can choose schools. Public school in your area, or any number of private schools.

The teachers' union is not one horrible entity. In some areas, it is okay, in others it is ridiculous. Administrators and parents also shoulder blame.

Interesting, i expected a state to state difference. Is there also a city to city difference ?

You mentioned private schools. Is it fair to state that these private schools have less students per teacher and classroom when compared with public schools ?


To return to the dutch...
I also know there is a lot of problems going on in my own country, but the political establishment is still level headed. I expect it to get worse unfortunately. For the last 30 years economic and college professors have been warning about the decrease in quality of education in the western world and in the Netherlands in particular. Because individual students fail and classes get bigger, education programs get easier. While instead the classes should be small because then the teacher has more time for the individual student. If i look at the 50s, 60s and even 70s, it seemed generally to be different. And on a case per case basis the students should be compared if they have some problems. I think there is the problem. There is a wrong form of feedback going on.

In electronics you have negative feedback by for example the use of an integrator to reduce errors in the desired signal. In this case the amount of students passing with a good amount of knowledge to be as high as reasonably possible and with a working mentality.

But you can also have positive feedback which makes the electronic circuit unstable and oscillating. That is how i see politics is being performed . It is like a circuit without negative feedback to dampen the error.

There is a serious separation going on between the working classes here as well. But as i see in the US, i see the same here. People blame everything but themselves. Students who work hard and do self reflection, no matter the ethnic background succeed in life. While those who blame everything but themselves, hardly get anywhere. Unless they get lucky. I see an increase of opportunistic behaviour in the western world and it worries me. A behaviour that has no planning but a "cease the day, do not worry about tomorrow(Ayn Rand)" mentality . Unfortunately, this mentality is fueled by the low quality programming on television. And is fueled by the systematically reducing the amounts of money for schools. Thus classes get bigger here and the peace of mind among students reduces as well. All this in the Netherlands but also in the other west European countries. I do not like it one bit.

I have always enjoyed movies and relaxation just as much as watching documentaries. And for the last 15 years i have seen a steady decline of quality documentaries. Because the commercial television wants to make money and produce low quality (but cheap)television with high shocking factor. Sex sells and is used often. A good example are reality tv shows or reality tv documentaries. Tv is flushed with those kind of programs.
There is nothing wrong with these kind of programs as long as there is a counter force. And now the only counter force is a bunch religious fundamentalists that unknowingly force anybody who pays attention into the wrong direction. Away from sound reasoning.

OP is English your native language?

No it is not, i do try to reduce the amount of typing errors i make.
I even have a spell checker, but it does not know all words and i have learned the English written language, not the US style.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Pulls up lawnchair and grabs a beer...

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You can choose schools. Public school in your area, or any number of private schools.

The teachers' union is not one horrible entity. In some areas, it is okay, in others it is ridiculous. Administrators and parents also shoulder blame.

Can't choose your school (k-12) anywhere I've been...your kids are assigned based on geographic area or specific bussing agreement. You can put them in private school if you want, but most areas don't have vouchers or any other way to get your taxes back, so you're paying a ton for private school plus losing tax dollars to public (in other words, only the wealthy need apply).

 

[William Gaatjes]

This. Although true public school choice is probably inevitable (with or without vouchers), many American schools would become much more economically and racially segregated if parents could choose any public school to go to. We should address the huge inequalities between neighboring school districts first, otherwise it would be a disaster to allow it.

Parents still have the choice of going to a private school, homeschooling, or moving into another school district. Even then, you can still apply for a transfer of your child if the local school does not offer something that would benefit the child (advanced/special classes, IB programs, vocational programs, etc.) Then there are such entities as magnet schools, charter schools, etc.

Interesting indeed. I will read about that.

These choices exist, but I don't think that this is the issue that many have against "nosy government".

I agree. As usual the problem can be split apart in several smaller problems that seemingly have nothing to do with each other.

 

[Lemon law]

Some of the huge costs increases in K-12 education and in colleges and universities are due to various Federal unfunded mandates. Things like schools being required to make all their buildings handicapped accessible even if they have no such students. Then there is paper work requirements that have caused the bulk of the school budget being spend on administrators rather than teachers, books, and classrooms.

I don't want to sound republican and anti-regulation, but at a certain point it would be far cheaper for the schools to simply hire a few full time people who do nothing but ferry handicap students from class room to class room. There is smart regulation and stupid regulation, but the folks doing the regulation are not the ones who get any feedback on the costs.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Some of the huge costs increases in K-12 education and in colleges and universities are due to various Federal unfunded mandates. Things like schools being required to make all their buildings handicapped accessible even if they have no such students. Then there is paper work requirements that have caused the bulk of the school budget being spend on administrators rather than teachers, books, and classrooms.

I do not understand that.
An elevator is always handy, also for getting heavy equipment to upper floors.
And ramps instead of door doorsteps or not using doorsteps can in my humble opinion not explain large costs. That is a one time investment together with every 3 months service costs for a checkup of the elevator.

I had seen a documentary where i perceive that there are to much counselors that are just not interested in their work or the students. I think these are indeed major costs. As usual there is to much paper work where the relevant information is not stored in anyway. This indeed is a big problem everywhere. Teachers are more important then counselors.

I don't want to sound republican and anti-regulation, but at a certain point it would be far cheaper for the schools to simply hire a few full time people who do nothing but ferry handicap students from class room to class room. There is smart regulation and stupid regulation, but the folks doing the regulation are not the ones who get any feedback on the costs.

I agree fully with that sometimes the advantage of heaving regulations is superseded by the delusional ideas of individuals who have no idea how the regulation should be implemented and if it is practical or just theoretical.

The government should learn about how companies use non profit organizations to create standards.
As is seen many times, companies start a committee or commission of wise people in the field from different companies who analyze and advise solutions that are theorized about and are practical.
Building regulations but also for example the USB specifications from the USB-IF.
But care must be taken these committees do not get to powerful and start to forget the greater good.

 

[Cerb]

I do not understand that.
An elevator is always handy, also for getting heavy equipment to upper floors.
And ramps instead of door doorsteps or not using doorsteps can in my humble opinion not explain large costs. That is a one time investment together with every 3 months service costs for a checkup of the elevator.

New schools are built fine. The problem is that you might have an old school, with very little space to put a ramp. This makes adding a ramp expensive. The walls might not be able to handle rails and such, maybe. Or, a bathroom might have to be butchered, possibly eating into other areas of the school, to make it handicapped-accessible.

Also, that's just one example. There are enough such requirements that schools may have 1/3 or more of their workers work just to handle paperwork, on top of the teachers doing some of it. These things keep getting added to, but not revisited, nor streamlined.

The anti-government sentiment largely comes from the fact that good states have generally gotten worse over time, than before the federal government got its hands in schooling. More subtly, there's the problem that those above about the state level can act without major repercussions, as they are accountable to those above them, but not those below them (in large states, California being the most extreme example, that cutoff level is probably the county). If you run a school, and you know very well the new federal mandate will make things worse, you can't do anything but resign, retire (if you've been there long enough), or implement it.

I don't want to sound republican and anti-regulation, but at a certain point it would be far cheaper for the schools to simply hire a few full time people who do nothing but ferry handicap students from class room to class room. There is smart regulation and stupid regulation, but the folks doing the regulation are not the ones who get any feedback on the costs.

It's anything but anti-regulation. The national school system, as a whole, has almost no regulation as it currently exists. Those who could regulate it are the foxes guarding the hen house.

 

[hal2kilo]

This. Although true public school choice is probably inevitable (with or without vouchers), many American schools would become much more economically and racially segregated if parents could choose any public school to go to. We should address the huge inequalities between neighboring school districts first, otherwise it would be a disaster to allow it.

Parents still have the choice of going to a private school, homeschooling, or moving into another school district. Even then, you can still apply for a transfer of your child if the local school does not offer something that would benefit the child (advanced/special classes, IB programs, vocational programs, etc.) Then there are such entities as magnet schools, charter schools, etc.

These choices exist, but I don't think that this is the issue that many have against "nosy government".

That's the problem with using local property taxes to fund public schools.

 

[MovingTarget]

That's the problem with using local property taxes to fund public schools.

Not necessarily. You need to keep in mind the size of the districts. In areas where districts are county-wide vs. those that have fragmented into multiple city districts, the disparity is not as bad.
In my own state, there is a huge difference between the city schools in Birmingham and the surrounding areas (Vestavia Hills, Hoover, etc.) where property values are astronomical in comparison.
In Mobile, where we had a county-wide system, resources were much more evenly distributed. If it were equalized within every given state, it wouldn't be a problem. County-wide is okay, but not stellar. Further subdivision is what produces the huge disparities that we see.

 

[William Gaatjes]

New schools are built fine. The problem is that you might have an old school, with very little space to put a ramp. This makes adding a ramp expensive. The walls might not be able to handle rails and such, maybe. Or, a bathroom might have to be butchered, possibly eating into other areas of the school, to make it handicapped-accessible.

Of course i can understand this. but what i do not understand is the yearly millions that are spend are not ending up into an ever lasting renovation of an old building. That money is leaking away somewhere else. And if renovating an old building is more expensive then building a new one according to proper guidelines, take that old building down and build a new one. That is what should be done. It is an investment in the future.

Also, that's just one example. There are enough such requirements that schools may have 1/3 or more of their workers work just to handle paperwork, on top of the teachers doing some of it. These things keep getting added to, but not revisited, nor streamlined.

Indeed, i think there is your real problem. No streamlining and removing of useless policies.

The anti-government sentiment largely comes from the fact that good states have generally gotten worse over time, than before the federal government got its hands in schooling. More subtly, there's the problem that those above about the state level can act without major repercussions, as they are accountable to those above them, but not those below them (in large states, California being the most extreme example, that cutoff level is probably the county). If you run a school, and you know very well the new federal mandate will make things worse, you can't do anything but resign, retire (if you've been there long enough), or implement it.

It's anything but anti-regulation. The national school system, as a whole, has almost no regulation as it currently exists. Those who could regulate it are the foxes guarding the hen house.

If there are so less regulations, what is the issue then exactly ?
It seems to be that on a case per case basis something is wrong.
What or who are the foxes in the hen house ?

But i think that in general, schools are seen as a nuisance because in the short term schools will always cost money. Schools and colleges are long term investments for the whole country. That is how an educational system must be seen.

I see it like this :
If the kids are smart, the country will advance. If the kids are kept dumb, do not blame them for not understanding complex issues and for all the problems. It is basic karma. As you sow so shall you reap.

 

[dmcowen674]

Nosy government and schools ?

When it comes to schools, i was not aware that the schools in the USA where really that bad ? I never knew that people where not allowed to make a free choice of which school there children will attend. I am beginning to understand the frustration and hatred against the nosy government in the USA.

Because i compare it with what i know in the west of Europe.

And people always say that the US is the land of the free. Is this still the case in the US or have things changed dramatically ? And those teacher unions are a disgrace. That is like a maffia.

You are comparing an America of the past you know of through history books.

Since roughly 1994 America as you grew up reading about no longer exists.

It is descending into Hell in a Hand Basket

Everybody know this

However thank you for scribing out it from afar.

 

[William Gaatjes]

You are comparing an America of the past you know of through history books.

Since roughly 1994 America as you grew up reading about no longer exists.

It is descending into Hell in a Hand Basket

Everybody know this

However thank you for scribing out it from afar.

Strange, the documents i read and documentaries i had seen where not that old... Can you give some modern day examples ?

 

[CPA]

Some of the huge costs increases in K-12 education and in colleges and universities are due to various Federal unfunded mandates. Things like schools being required to make all their buildings handicapped accessible even if they have no such students. Then there is paper work requirements that have caused the bulk of the school budget being spend on administrators rather than teachers, books, and classrooms.

I don't want to sound republican and anti-regulation, but at a certain point it would be far cheaper for the schools to simply hire a few full time people who do nothing but ferry handicap students from class room to class room. There is smart regulation and stupid regulation, but the folks doing the regulation are not the ones who get any feedback on the costs.

Add in the ridiculous amenities they put into schools nowadays. I don't know where you live, but my city has been building a couple schools a year. A highschool can cost close to $100 million to build.

 

[Cerb]

Indeed, i think there is your real problem. No streamlining and removing of useless policies.

No only that, but the government does not exactly enact policies with the idea of efficacy or efficiency in mind...

If there are so less regulations, what is the issue then exactly ?
It seems to be that on a case per case basis something is wrong.
What or who are the foxes in the hen house ?

If you are lower on the pyramid, you can't do much about anything done by, or chosen by, someone higher. If enough of you in the lower sections agree, however, you can either affect operations, put pressure on those above you, or go above the level of whoever is making the poor decision(s). At some point, any concerned group of teachers, other school workers, or parents, will become ineffective, or ineffectual (FI, students performing poorly in standardized tests leads to more focus on tests, rather than an improvement in teaching the students anything useful, as it becomes a popular issue).

However, Congress is not accountable to the people it's making a decision for. If people in Massachusetts do not want some regressive mandate, but some majority does (assuming their reps are not traditional career politicians), they end up screwed. The U.S. DoE is not accountable to anyone in any classroom. On down from there, you've got a bureacratic pyramid, where each level down (state, sometimes region, county, sometimes city) has to answer to all the levels above it, but not those beneath it, unless a massive portion of them become disagreeable. Once down to school itself, they are stuck with tons of liability, but no real power to choose anything. Those that want to do good are typically hindered by the system(s) in place.

No strings ever seem to come attached, which might say, require improvements in average outcomes, else or stop a program or requirement. Changes made tend to do little to benefit students, and there is no system to balance that. Neither students nor parents, as long as those who dislike the situation remain an inactive and/or small in number, have any authority in the matter. Those in the school system have their own self-interest biasing them as well (disagree, and you can be replaced by someone who agrees, or at least keeps quiet). Home schooling is an option, but it is not a realistic option for most (same with private schools). The President can appoint a few people, sure, but their powers are quite limited.

Foxes: higher echelons of government controlling the school system, including Congress.
Hens: students.
Hen house: school system.
Citizens of majority age concerned about our obviously poor outcomes: person asking if the hen house is being guarded.
Average citizen: confident that their elected and appointed officials are not among the foxes.
School bureaucrat: a fox, or a sheep in fox clothing.

But i think that in general, schools are seen as a nuisance because in the short term schools will always cost money. Schools and colleges are long term investments for the whole country. That is how an educational system must be seen.

Yes. Here, that is somewhat the case, but schools have become more and more a babysitting and child-rearing service, and colleges are becoming glorified vocational schools. IoW, they are becoming more and more an investment in the present.

I see it like this :
If the kids are smart, the country will advance. If the kids are kept dumb, do not blame them for not understanding complex issues and for all the problems. It is basic karma. As you sow so shall you reap.

They are not kept dumb, but conditioned to be that, and to not think about or for themselves. Humans naturally learn. We have evolved such that learning new and different things is pleasurable. We have also evolved to be able to adapt our minds to our environment. As for the latter, schools can have a major impact on mental and emotional development.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Add in the ridiculous amenities they put into schools nowadays. I don't know where you live, but my city has been building a couple schools a year. A highschool can cost close to $100 million to build.

I have not concrete numbers for the entire country, but the examples i was able to find where less than 30 million dollars for ~900 students including material , chairs, computers(not for ~900 students), furniture. And we pay more tax on everything and material is more expensive.

 

[William Gaatjes]

No only that, but the government does not exactly enact policies with the idea of efficacy or efficiency in mind...

If you are lower on the pyramid, you can't do much about anything done by, or chosen by, someone higher. If enough of you in the lower sections agree, however, you can either affect operations, put pressure on those above you, or go above the level of whoever is making the poor decision(s). At some point, any concerned group of teachers, other school workers, or parents, will become ineffective, or ineffectual (FI, students performing poorly in standardized tests leads to more focus on tests, rather than an improvement in teaching the students anything useful, as it becomes a popular issue).

However, Congress is not accountable to the people it's making a decision for. If people in Massachusetts do not want some regressive mandate, but some majority does (assuming their reps are not traditional career politicians), they end up screwed. The U.S. DoE is not accountable to anyone in any classroom. On down from there, you've got a bureacratic pyramid, where each level down (state, sometimes region, county, sometimes city) has to answer to all the levels above it, but not those beneath it, unless a massive portion of them become disagreeable. Once down to school itself, they are stuck with tons of liability, but no real power to choose anything. Those that want to do good are typically hindered by the system(s) in place.

No strings ever seem to come attached, which might say, require improvements in average outcomes, else or stop a program or requirement. Changes made tend to do little to benefit students, and there is no system to balance that. Neither students nor parents, as long as those who dislike the situation remain an inactive and/or small in number, have any authority in the matter. Those in the school system have their own self-interest biasing them as well (disagree, and you can be replaced by someone who agrees, or at least keeps quiet). Home schooling is an option, but it is not a realistic option for most (same with private schools). The President can appoint a few people, sure, but their powers are quite limited.

Foxes: higher echelons of government controlling the school system, including Congress.
Hens: students.
Hen house: school system.
Citizens of majority age concerned about our obviously poor outcomes: person asking if the hen house is being guarded.
Average citizen: confident that their elected and appointed officials are not among the foxes.
School bureaucrat: a fox, or a sheep in fox clothing.

Yes. Here, that is somewhat the case, but schools have become more and more a babysitting and child-rearing service, and colleges are becoming glorified vocational schools. IoW, they are becoming more and more an investment in the present.

They are not kept dumb, but conditioned to be that, and to not think about or for themselves. Humans naturally learn. We have evolved such that learning new and different things is pleasurable. We have also evolved to be able to adapt our minds to our environment. As for the latter, schools can have a major impact on mental and emotional development.

I understand. This pyramid schooling system is indeed very bad. When there is no accountability and the wrong person on the seat, it is bound to go wrong. It is inevitable to go wrong. I think an idea might be to do some research in the spending nature and tax administration of all the officials in that system. In such a system it is inevitable that some will fill their pockets.

Humans naturally learn, yes that is true. But when it is time to be productive, learning is not the most important thing. Thus becoming a large cost on the future company these people will work for. Of course you always need an update or introduction course to get started at the new job. That people can think for and about themselves is indeed very important. Because humans are naturally problem solvers and is a feature that must be cultivated and developed more with each generation and not dumbed down with each generation. It is our evolved strength instead of heaving for example massive claws, massive teeth, better senses, armored skin, poison or superior physical strength.

 

[Hacp]

This. Although true public school choice is probably inevitable (with or without vouchers), many American schools would become much more economically and racially segregated if parents could choose any public school to go to. We should address the huge inequalities between neighboring school districts first, otherwise it would be a disaster to allow it.

Parents still have the choice of going to a private school, homeschooling, or moving into another school district. Even then, you can still apply for a transfer of your child if the local school does not offer something that would benefit the child (advanced/special classes, IB programs, vocational programs, etc.) Then there are such entities as magnet schools, charter schools, etc.

These choices exist, but I don't think that this is the issue that many have against "nosy government".

How about we give everyone back their money and let everyone decide themselves where to send their kids? What happened to personal responsibility? Its gone because we didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. The pussification of the US continues.

 

[MovingTarget]

How about we give everyone back their money and let everyone decide themselves where to send their kids? What happened to personal responsibility? Its gone because we didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. The pussification of the US continues.

Feelings have nothing to do with it. Facts do. Even those without kids have a large stake in an educated, literate population. Are you seriously arguing against the concept of public education? If so, you really take the cake.

Personal responsibility is great, but having that does not absolve one of their responsibility towards others. A child cannot take responsibility and pay for themselves to get a primary/secondary education. Didn't win the genetic lottery? Too bad, you aren't going to school. FAIL.

 

[Hacp]

Feelings have nothing to do with it. Facts do. Even those without kids have a large stake in an educated, literate population. Are you seriously arguing against the concept of public education? If so, you really take the cake.

Personal responsibility is great, but having that does not absolve one of their responsibility towards others. A child cannot take responsibility and pay for themselves to get a primary/secondary education. Didn't win the genetic lottery? Too bad, you aren't going to school. FAIL.

Well guess what? People without kids don't want to be paying for the children of illegals to get through high school. Give the people back their money. Then people can choose which schools they want their children to attend and spend their own money to pay for it. Why should a person pay be forced to pay for the education of a complete stranger? Do you like giving money to strangers? I don't.

 

[MovingTarget]

Well guess what? People without kids don't want to be paying for the children of illegals to get through high school. Give the people back their money. Then people can choose which schools they want their children to attend and spend their own money to pay for it. Why should a person pay be forced to pay for the education of a complete stranger? Do you like giving money to strangers? I don't.

You are delusional. Yes, people without children would want to have more money in their pockets than not. BFD. A tax to support public schools (property tax or otherwise) is necessary for any nation to be successful in modern times. Such a system was one of the first set up here in the US because it was such a good idea.

Private schools, although they provide valuable service, are not a wholesale substitute for educating a population. Within a generation of disbanding public school systems, we would have enrollment at private schools surge and yet we would still have the unwashed uneducated newly illiterate masses knocking at your door, and rightfully so. Public education is a GOOD thing.

Edit: This has nothing to do with illegals or the children of illegals. That is a red herring. As long as Amendment 14 is still in the constitution, we must educate these citizens. Noncitizens? That is deserving of another thread.