North Korea threatening physical response this weekend

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Dec 10, 2005
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The F22 could take off from a carrier. It needs 800ft and the runway on a carrier is just shy of 1000ft.

The USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76) is 1092ft long. Your 1000' number assumes that the plane will take off from the end of the flight deck. Aircraft carriers launch planes by catapult, which is not 1000' long, it's forward of the island, and has blast shields to protect the rest of the deck from hot exhaust.

I see your point about the transport stuff - since the carrier would be going in that direction anyway, you could just carry stuff on deck (assuming you are also not so worried about elements), but the operation of an F-22 from a carrier just seems improbable.

As for the Navy/Marines stuff, the Marines are under the Department of the Navy, so I don't think that's as much of an issue compared with Air Force/Navy things.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
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The Korean Conflict was never ended.
The US and South Korea beat the North all the way back to nearly the Chinese border, that is why China stepped in, they feared we were coming on over the river into China. In other words we should have stopped sooner and never gotten so close to thye border. NK didn't beat squat it was the Chinese + NK that ran us back down to the present DMZ.

The UN isn't worth 2 cents in this or any other conflict. The UN should be disbanded, there are far too many crazies in it to accomplish anything.

As for the civilians in NK. It will be sad but if we had fought Hitler or Japan in WWII like we are trying to fight presently, well we would all be speaking German and Japanese. Do you think NK will care about civilians in SK? No they don't even care about their own.
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
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The Korean Conflict was never ended.
The US and South Korea beat the North all the way back to nearly the Chinese border, that is why China stepped in, they feared we were coming on over the river into China. In other words we should have stopped sooner and never gotten so close to thye border. NK didn't beat squat it was the Chinese + NK that ran us back down to the present DMZ.

The UN isn't worth 2 cents in this or any other conflict. The UN should be disbanded, there are far too many crazies in it to accomplish anything.

As for the civilians in NK. It will be sad but if we had fought Hitler or Japan in WWII like we are trying to fight presently, well we would all be speaking German and Japanese. Do you think NK will care about civilians in SK? No they don't even care about their own.

While I agree with your point on the Korean war and China's involvement your assertion that there are any parallels in the current wars vs ww2 is frankly preposterous. Terrorism has changed the face of battle. Did the Japanese fight for generations as freedom fighters or did the Germans start a insurgency the second the allies occupied that lasted 10 years?
 

Kirby

Lifer
Apr 10, 2006
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The Korean Conflict was never ended.
The US and South Korea beat the North all the way back to nearly the Chinese border, that is why China stepped in, they feared we were coming on over the river into China. In other words we should have stopped sooner and never gotten so close to thye border. NK didn't beat squat it was the Chinese + NK that ran us back down to the present DMZ.

The UN isn't worth 2 cents in this or any other conflict. The UN should be disbanded, there are far too many crazies in it to accomplish anything.

As for the civilians in NK. It will be sad but if we had fought Hitler or Japan in WWII like we are trying to fight presently, well we would all be speaking German and Japanese. Do you think NK will care about civilians in SK? No they don't even care about their own.

I'm no huge fan of the UN, but to say they weren't worth anything in this conflict is absolutely false. It wasn't just the US, but 20+ countries.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
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politically it's stagnated more recently, but there is staunch difference in opinion about NK between the US and ROK. they still view themselves as the same people, and that i don't think that will ever change, so reunification will take precedence over militarism, at least from the ROK's side.

no, reunification is not an attractive prospect for SK and SK knows it. The economic and societal issues that will arise from any attempted reunification makes reunification that much more unlikely. If anything were to go down, it would be a gradual change, and SK's know that their lifestyle/economic power is in jeopardy to pair up with NK.

SK doesn't want military action because they know they will bear the brunt of any damage caused from war... but it does not necessarily follow that reunification is popular anymore.
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
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no, reunification is not an attractive prospect for SK and SK knows it. The economic and societal issues that will arise from any attempted reunification makes reunification that much more unlikely. If anything were to go down, it would be a gradual change, and SK's know that their lifestyle/economic power is in jeopardy to pair up with NK.

Germany thought the same thing...
 

Kirby

Lifer
Apr 10, 2006
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no, reunification is not an attractive prospect for SK and SK knows it. The economic and societal issues that will arise from any attempted reunification makes reunification that much more unlikely. If anything were to go down, it would be a gradual change, and SK's know that their lifestyle/economic power is in jeopardy to pair up with NK.

SK doesn't want military action because they know they will bear the brunt of any damage caused from war... but it does not necessarily follow that reunification is popular anymore.

how many south koreans do you know?
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
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The USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76) is 1092ft long. Your 1000' number assumes that the plane will take off from the end of the flight deck. Aircraft carriers launch planes by catapult, which is not 1000' long, it's forward of the island, and has blast shields to protect the rest of the deck from hot exhaust.

The total runway is the flight deck . All the stuff on deck folds down and under the deck so you have the full length minus about 65ft if needed. They have used the full flight deck in the past to land C130 cargo planes.

The main thing that a f-22 lacks that would help it is a holdback bar mount for assisted launches. And that would be trivial to add if it was really necessary. Otherwise the size and weight are almost identical to the tomcat. A lot of people talk about the airframe in it not being strong enough for carriers but that is far from true. When it was in design they had 1 model of the center fuselage. The difference between the proposed navy version was the addition of swept wings for easy storage. The plane was designed from the start to support heavy stress . It had to be because Mach 2.4 at 60,000 ft is a lot of stress. The main feature for landing, the tail hook is actually still in place. That shows how close they came to making the navy version.

I see your point about the transport stuff - since the carrier would be going in that direction anyway, you could just carry stuff on deck (assuming you are also not so worried about elements), but the operation of an F-22 from a carrier just seems improbable.

As for the Navy/Marines stuff, the Marines are under the Department of the Navy, so I don't think that's as much of an issue compared with Air Force/Navy things.


Here is an interesting photo. Look in the shadows.
carrier.jpg
 
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IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
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pretty awesome we are calling their bluff.

has anyone done that before straight up to the face of N.Korea *(I.E., they draw a line and say don't cross it or else seoul will be a orb of fire, and we cross it and say whats up?)

if so what was the result?

Yes, their bluffs are called all the time and they never do jack shit about it. Any time additional sanctions are threatened, NK threatens war. Whenever these military games/exercises take place, NK threatens war. This belligerence from them is nothing new and is par for the course.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
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That's a museum, the landing distance is about 3600 feet for one of those, and takeoff at 5400. It didn't land on the ship.

Really , I thought it went through all the planes and landed at mach 2 !

It is an example of how much space there is on deck for things like transport of aircraft.

I have been inside most of the planes like the tomcat doing repairs and pulling power modules when I was in the Navy. I'm more familiar than most.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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8000 troops isnt enough to hold one city from NK... they have the 4th largest standing army on earth.

And Saddam had what, the 3rd or 4th at the time when we sent him packing? Troop numbers mean a lot less than they used to. Unless they are able to concentrate all of their men at a single point and we simply dont have enough munitions to decimate them. Their troop strength imo means very little. What is their combat strength? Considering the size of their economy they are probably using 1960s era soviet equipment. That is even worse than Saddams army who had enough oil money to at least use 70s and 80s era equipment.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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Iraq had the 4th largest standing army on earth at the time of the Gulf War(s). You saw how well that went for them.

NK could potentially devastate Seoul with artillery, but without Chinese intervention, the US Air Force and Navy would finish them off in a week, maybe a month, tops. Make no mistake, the US military has no problems conquering an opposing force; the problem is occupation and in the case of NK, I doubt very seriously that we'd be opposed on an occupation like we were in Iraq.

EDIT: And I doubt very seriously that China would intervene, as it would have FAR too much to lose in a conflict over a country that in the grand scheme of things, just doesn't matter to the world and provides no value to China.

If China intervenes. I suspect it will be to remove the north korean govt and replace it with their own puppet. I dont think China wants the United States up against their border. And they know NK is a loose cannon. If war breaks out I really wouldnt be surprised to see an invasion of NK from China. And they will race to keep us from gobbling up too much NK territory.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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And Saddam had what, the 3rd or 4th at the time when we sent him packing? Troop numbers mean a lot less than they used to. Unless they are able to concentrate all of their men at a single point and we simply dont have enough munitions to decimate them. Their troop strength imo means very little. What is their combat strength? Considering the size of their economy they are probably using 1960s era soviet equipment. That is even worse than Saddams army who had enough oil money to at least use 70s and 80s era equipment.

The issue is how good are their defenses and moral? They have had a lot of time to dig tunnels and their terrain is much more defense friendly than an open desert. If they have been indoctrinated well enough this could make for a nasty suprise if not handled properly
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
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Really , I thought it went through all the planes and landed at mach 2 !

It is an example of how much space there is on deck for things like transport of aircraft.

Ah, I wasn't sure what point you were trying to make there.

I have been inside most of the planes like the tomcat doing repairs and pulling power modules when I was in the Navy. I'm more familiar than most.

:thumbsup:
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
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Modelworks

I can't believe a C130 ever landed on a carrier!

The F-22 also likely lacks the beefy landing gear required for carrier landings. I also doubt they can be easily equipped with a tail hook.

It's also been my experience that each service crams every cubic inch of cockpit space in their aircraft with what they think is useful gear. I doubt that there empty spaces for the Navy's landing aids, even if the pilots knew how to use them properly.

And nobody takes off or lands from a carrier without being carrier qualified. I spent time in a RAG squadron saw pilots washed out for failing to Carr-Qual. If you can't do it repeatedly on a piece of runway set up like a carrier deck, they never let them try it at sea. And you won't see anybody operating from a carrier that doesn't know the difference between a "Green Shirt" and a "Red Shirt". I can't see the AF training pilots for months to do something their aircraft weren't really capable of doing.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
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If China intervenes. I suspect it will be to remove the north korean govt and replace it with their own puppet. I dont think China wants the United States up against their border. And they know NK is a loose cannon. If war breaks out I really wouldnt be surprised to see an invasion of NK from China. And they will race to keep us from gobbling up too much NK territory.

That's an interesting point, and one I hadn't considered.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
3,270
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how many south koreans do you know?

friends and my entire extended family, why?

also to the poster that made the east vs west germany comparison... obviously has little to no clue what is really going on inside NK
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
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friends and my entire extended family, why?

also to the poster that made the east vs west germany comparison... obviously has little to no clue what is really going on inside NK

Exactly, East Germany was utopia compared to North Korea. Obviously there was a lot of pain involved with the German reunification but one would think that a Korean unification would be orders of magnitude more difficult.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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East Germans still had the knowledge and memory of a different time before Communism. They also were against West Germany and Berlin was split. They were able to see what capitalism could do. NK has done a ridculously good job of keeping their people in the dark. When i watch documentaries and read articles about first hand accounts. It is the most amazing thing I read. It is like Nazi Germany on crack cocaine. These people are brainwashed into believe Kim Jong is a god sent from the heavens. They know no other life.
You have to remember except for the extremely old everybody alive in NK was either born under brutal Japanese occupation or brutal communist occupation. If these people were ever liberated. It would be an interesting test case in how the human brain copes with finding out everything that had been fed into it from birth was a lie.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
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Modelworks

I can't believe a C130 ever landed on a carrier!
Youtube

The F-22 also likely lacks the beefy landing gear required for carrier landings.
Much depends on the stall speed.
I also doubt they can be easily equipped with a tail hook.

It's also been my experience that each service crams every cubic inch of cockpit space in their aircraft with what they think is useful gear. I doubt that there empty spaces for the Navy's landing aids, even if the pilots knew how to use them properly.

And nobody takes off or lands from a carrier without being carrier qualified. I spent time in a RAG squadron saw pilots washed out for failing to Carr-Qual. If you can't do it repeatedly on a piece of runway set up like a carrier deck, they never let them try it at sea. And you won't see anybody operating from a carrier that doesn't know the difference between a "Green Shirt" and a "Red Shirt". I can't see the AF training pilots for months to do something their aircraft weren't really capable of doing.

Bolded a video link
I will agree that take off/landings are for those that are qualified.

The carrier would proably be used for transport and then use slings to hoist the aricraft off the deck.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Dont underestimate the military might of South Korea. There are US artillery there, along with an airforce base, and Tanks, and Air Cav units, HeavyEngineering Battalions, etc. I wouldnt douth that they have tactical nukes and sub-surface nukes.

Besides the American Military the entire area in north is filled with tank traps and pre-installed pill boxes. Just bombing the area will not make it defeated. All Korean men serve a stint in the military when they are younger. The North korean equipment is not that new compared to what is available today. Fighting men are not enough to win an extended war. It takes lots of supplies to win a war which North Korea just does not have. When the Air Force's A-10'S and the Army's Cobra Attack Helicopters start coming it will make mincemeat out of their armor.
 

Kirby

Lifer
Apr 10, 2006
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friends and my entire extended family, why?

also to the poster that made the east vs west germany comparison... obviously has little to no clue what is really going on inside NK

haha, foot -> mouth.

but every south korean i've met have been really gungho about reunification, or either apathetic about NK in general. even some of my hardcore ROKMC friends.

and i may be a bit biased. when i went to the DMZ the tour guide was preaching it pretty hard.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
3,270
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haha, foot -> mouth.

but every south korean i've met have been really gungho about reunification, or either apathetic about NK in general. even some of my hardcore ROKMC friends.

and i may be a bit biased. when i went to the DMZ the tour guide was preaching it pretty hard.

the idea of reunification was taught in classrooms in SK for a long time now. However, from what I can assess, the newer generation of South Koreans really do not have the same gut-level identification of brotherhood to North Koreans that existed before. Koreans are pretty keen on the idea that we are 'one race', 'one blood' (not going to elaborate on this..), so there is some impetus towards reunification with regards to that.

But South Koreans know how much of a mindfuck North Korea is. In the past 50 years, South Korea has developed bewilderingly fast, so fast that one generation later South Korea is no longer recognizable... however, North Korea has evolved utterly in the opposite direction. The cultural differences between the two Koreas could not be more different, indeed, the difference that separates the two completely dwarfs the division between East and West Germany.

The economic differences are similarly mirrored as well. The fact is that many Koreans are rather apathetic about North Korea, and having so recently pulled themselves by the bootstraps to become a world-recognized economic power, are not likely to be so gung-ho to destroy their relative measure of prosperity for a group of people who only resemble them, but are otherwise alien.

As the old guard of North Koreans die, you have a new crop of people who are born and raised with the gospel of Kim Jong Il and Kim Il Sung from the time they can breathe. The way the state is totally ingrained into the minds of the people cannot be overexaggerated; indeed, many early north korean defectors who suffered at the hands of Kim Il Sung's regime sobbed and cried when they heard he passed away. I remember an interview with a former guard for the abysmal political prison camps talking about how he felt he has lost a father figure. The mental disease inflicted upon North Korea as a whole is real, and I don't think people who are used to making fun of Kim Jong Il as a puppet in Team America understand the depth of this. People have their lives chosen for them and governed by the state, they don't understand what its like to make their own decisions, and they are the farthest thing from anything resembling the mental state of a South Korean.

Add to this a whole nation that is chronically malnourished, with severe consequences for not only their physical stature but mental development as well. I am trying to come up with an example of what a sudden or even gentle reunification would be like, but I cannot.. all I can imagine is that it would be an utter catastrophe for my relatives and friends in Korea. If there is to be any real reunfication there would be a need to undo the permanet physical and psychological damage Kim Jong Il/Kim Il Sung's regime did to the population, but there is no way to do this. I am afraid that any real reunfication would not only face economic barriers but cultural barriers that are not obvious.

I guess I'm ranting at this point, and I haven't really written a lot about SK/NK reunification before, only read, talked to people, and watched BBC documentaries/Korean news and such.. my overall impression is that Korea has waited too long for reunification, and every year that passes by the people are no longer really 'one' people in anything but name...