Nobel Winner Called Racist

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Narmer
If you believe in your quote so much then you should've started this thread WITHOUT reference to Dr. Watson. To do so would imply that you agree with him. Your insistence that you have no opinion on the matter is akin to a Klansman saying he's not racist (I've heard it before). You're not fooling anybody with your assertion that you are independent on this matter but simply trying to argue it from a theoretical POV. Besides, what's the point of theory when it can't be applied to anything? And what's the point of speculation when there is no reason behind it? Stop being shy about this loaded thread you started and admit where you stand.

No, it implies nothing. Yourself, LegendKiller, and a few others are apparently incapable of dealing in abstraction. Instead of actually addressing any of the points I made in the OP in and of themselves, you have instead attempted to apply them to one specific situation in ways that I specifically stated that I never intended. Thus, your arguments are nothing but strawmen. Your (and LK's) idiocy is manifest in your repeated calls for me to state what I think about one specific case, which I have already stated in the OP (i.e. I don't know and I don't care).

As for your trip, I hope you have a friend because that's a lot of mileage. Also, considering the price of gas nowadays, it's simply cheaper, faster, and more convenient to take the bus, train, or even fly.

Amazing. Yet again, you read one line on a forum and suddenly you understand my entire life better than me. I can drive my beater car from St. Louis to Pittsburgh and back for about $150 in gas at current prices. If you can find a plane ticket for less that will get me there tomorrow, please let me know. I've already driven half way and am staying at my parents' house tonight, which is yet another reason I drove - they're going with me the rest of the way. It's good to know that your assessment of my style of travel is just about as effective as your assessment of my OP.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
I have no problems with reading comprehension, thank you. Somehow I made it through various levels of education and job experience with my apparently limited skills.

Genes affect all attributes of an individual. However, without the social structure the development of the natural attributes will inhibit exibition of those attrivutes. This is the key, you can take the smartest people. The fastest, strongest, most agile and remove *all* ability to train those talents and those talents will be completely wasted.

Remove all of the social structure in this country, public schooling, secondary education, books, and turn *every* person into a poor, decentralized, Somalian, and then you think we will score high compared to England?

Finally, I love how you can somehow devine emotions based upon text. Isn't that just awesome, now you know what I am feeling by what I type. Perhaps you should be a bit more analytical and understand the differences between nature and nuture and understand that without nuture, nature is wasted. Without nature nuture doesn't matter.

Attributing *all* of Africa's IQ situations to nature is idiotic and lacks any foundation in psychology, sociology, or anthropology.

People sit around saying that these fields are "soft" sciences, thinking that "hard" sciences such as engineering or other math based studies are so much better. They try to analyze just based upon measurable variables without even looking at the qualitative factors that exist. They fail at looking at all variables, their multiple regression's overall R^2 sucks ass. Why? Because they cannot grasp something that isn't, as a whole, measurable. Nuture.

This is where I am a bit different. I have a BS in Psychology, a BS in history, and a minor in sociology. I also have an MBA in finance and I am a CFA charterholder. I work multi-variable regressions and other statistical quant. analysis all day. I have a good balance of qualitative and quantitative abilities.

Don't think I am emotional. If anything, I am being far more logical and rational than Cyclo because I am looking at all sides of the argument.

Somewhere along the line, you fell off the wagon and lost all ability to reason analytically. Instead, you specifically avoided the intent of the OP and have used every post since to simply demonize me based on a view that I specifically stated that I do not hold. You state that you're completely detached, yet everyone reading your posts can clearly see that that is simply a bald lie. You have actually resorted to appeals to authority and defaming my own education, which I never brought up even in passing in this thread, because you are so far out of water. If you were as educated and detached as you claim to be, then surely you could wage a single, non-fallacious argument against the statements that I have actually made. As yet, all I see are a bunch of straw men, some ad hominems, appeals to authority, and maybe some others with absolutely zero substance. Or, you can keep blathering on like an ignorant retard telling everyone here how stupid engineers are when that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Choose wisely.

 

[Perknose]

Hmmmm. I was always taught that in logical argument one first had to define one's terms, otherwise all that follows has the integrity and validity of the 2000 Florida vote count.

Would anyone like to step up to the plate and define intelligence?

The most my pych profs would venture was that intelligence is what intelligence tests measure -- one big nudge, nudge, wink, wink, circular spasm, or jerk, if you will, of self-referential nonsense.

Isn't "intelligence" merely the crude umbrella term for a constellation of different, though often overlapping and inter-related abilities?

Is the idiot savant who can instantly tell you which day of the week January 3rd, 1948 was really more intelligent than you, or merely an excellent driver?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Can you come to the conclusion that one race is inherently less intelligent than another?

The answer is no, and Perknose is spot on in his assessment of the issue, we can't even define intelligence properly.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Narmer
If you believe in your quote so much then you should've started this thread WITHOUT reference to Dr. Watson. To do so would imply that you agree with him. Your insistence that you have no opinion on the matter is akin to a Klansman saying he's not racist (I've heard it before). You're not fooling anybody with your assertion that you are independent on this matter but simply trying to argue it from a theoretical POV. Besides, what's the point of theory when it can't be applied to anything? And what's the point of speculation when there is no reason behind it? Stop being shy about this loaded thread you started and admit where you stand.

No, it implies nothing. Yourself, LegendKiller, and a few others are apparently incapable of dealing in abstraction. Instead of actually addressing any of the points I made in the OP in and of themselves, you have instead attempted to apply them to one specific situation in ways that I specifically stated that I never intended. Thus, your arguments are nothing but strawmen. Your (and LK's) idiocy is manifest in your repeated calls for me to state what I think about one specific case, which I have already stated in the OP (i.e. I don't know and I don't care).

As for your trip, I hope you have a friend because that's a lot of mileage. Also, considering the price of gas nowadays, it's simply cheaper, faster, and more convenient to take the bus, train, or even fly.

Amazing. Yet again, you read one line on a forum and suddenly you understand my entire life better than me. I can drive my beater car from St. Louis to Pittsburgh and back for about $150 in gas at current prices. If you can find a plane ticket for less that will get me there tomorrow, please let me know. I've already driven half way and am staying at my parents' house tonight, which is yet another reason I drove - they're going with me the rest of the way. It's good to know that your assessment of my style of travel is just about as effective as your assessment of my OP.

I've read your argument and it's stupid. Your reason for being abstract is nothing more than an excuse to be vague and jump to wild conclusions based on hypothetical scenerios. Oh and you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Soft science should never be equated with hard science. People try to do this with economics and its failed many times over. They try to apply the rigidity of math and engineering to the irrationality of human nature. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Your dumb analogy with the dogs is a perfect example of that and I mentioned in my first post that a lot of the issues you're trying to touch upon are socio-economic, not hard science.

Again. stop being vague and tell us what's on your mind, lest we start calling you a racist.

EDIT: Oh and I see that you latched on to the extreme of the alternatives I give you. You and I know that you could've taken a bus or train for cheaper.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Let's go to the metrics, blacks are 15 points lower on the scale than whites, and black females score higher than males on standardized IQ tests that have been modified to decrease the spread in the first place.

Rather than admit there are physical & cognitive measurable differences, we ignore them and bury them in medical texts... We live in an unusual society.

Edit:

A couple points, blacks were selectively bred as slaves, the males for physique/stamina in particular. Most slave owners did not recognize any family structure in their slaves, so they really were selectively bred.

Another factor to consider is that with cattle, the ones that jumped the fence & ran off were outright killed or sold & slaughtered for meat for generations and not bred, resulting in the docile cattle we have now, I suspect a similar mechanism was in place when slaves were bred.

For the record, I think that was fucking horrible & inhuman, but it's real.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Let's go to the metrics, blacks are 15 points lower on the scale than whites, and black females score higher than males on standardized IQ tests that have been modified to decrease the spread in the first place.

Rather than admit there are physical & cognitive measurable differences, we ignore them and bury them in medical texts... We live in an unusual society.

Edit:

A couple points, blacks were selectively bred as slaves, the males for physique/stamina in particular. Most slave owners did not recognize any family structure in their slaves, so they really were selectively bred.

Another factor to consider is that with cattle, the ones that jumped the fence & ran off were outright killed or sold & slaughtered for meat for generations and not bred, resulting in the docile cattle we have now, I suspect a similar mechanism was in place when slaves were bred.

For the record, I think that was fucking horrible & inhuman, but it's real.

Do you have any evidence for any of this?

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Siddhartha
What is the scientific data he is referring to?

generally he just says that such differences should be looked into. there is no scientific evidence yet. he's just against political correctness in general. its all a bell curve thing anyways. from other interviews i've seen he explains he just doesn't like how you can't even ask the question. with the continued advance of genetics he thinks such questions will inevitably be answered in the future.

 

[0roo0roo]

listen to the man himself
http://www.kqed.org/epArchive/R709261000
Wed, Sep 26, 2007 -- 10:00 AM
James Watson
Listen Listen (RealMedia stream)
Listen Download (MP3)
(Windows: right-click and choose "Save Target As." Mac: hold Ctrl, click link, and choose "Save As.")

The program talks with James Watson about his new autobiography, "Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science." Watson is chancellor of Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in New York. Along with Francis Crick and Maurice Wilkins, Watson won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1962 for having revealed the structure of DNA.
Host: Michael Krasny

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Let's go to the metrics, blacks are 15 points lower on the scale than whites, and black females score higher than males on standardized IQ tests that have been modified to decrease the spread in the first place.

Rather than admit there are physical & cognitive measurable differences, we ignore them and bury them in medical texts... We live in an unusual society.

Edit:

A couple points, blacks were selectively bred as slaves, the males for physique/stamina in particular. Most slave owners did not recognize any family structure in their slaves, so they really were selectively bred.

Another factor to consider is that with cattle, the ones that jumped the fence & ran off were outright killed or sold & slaughtered for meat for generations and not bred, resulting in the docile cattle we have now, I suspect a similar mechanism was in place when slaves were bred.

For the record, I think that was fucking horrible & inhuman, but it's real.

Do you have any evidence for any of this?

Google is your friend...

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Let's go to the metrics, blacks are 15 points lower on the scale than whites, and black females score higher than males on standardized IQ tests that have been modified to decrease the spread in the first place.

Rather than admit there are physical & cognitive measurable differences, we ignore them and bury them in medical texts... We live in an unusual society.

Edit:

A couple points, blacks were selectively bred as slaves, the males for physique/stamina in particular. Most slave owners did not recognize any family structure in their slaves, so they really were selectively bred.

Another factor to consider is that with cattle, the ones that jumped the fence & ran off were outright killed or sold & slaughtered for meat for generations and not bred, resulting in the docile cattle we have now, I suspect a similar mechanism was in place when slaves were bred.

For the record, I think that was fucking horrible & inhuman, but it's real.

Do you have any evidence for any of this?

Google is your friend...

I'm guessing no, then.

 

[spittledip]

It is the individual that defines himself. The group does not define the individual. People have much more potential than they realize most of the time. Life circumstances and cultural tendencies and family dynamics and individual belief systems and other factors can either nurture or crush individual potential. There are the extraordinary and exceptions on both ends of the spectrum, but these do not contribute to what is considered "normal."

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Let's go to the metrics, blacks are 15 points lower on the scale than whites, and black females score higher than males on standardized IQ tests that have been modified to decrease the spread in the first place.

Rather than admit there are physical & cognitive measurable differences, we ignore them and bury them in medical texts... We live in an unusual society.

Edit:

A couple points, blacks were selectively bred as slaves, the males for physique/stamina in particular. Most slave owners did not recognize any family structure in their slaves, so they really were selectively bred.

Another factor to consider is that with cattle, the ones that jumped the fence & ran off were outright killed or sold & slaughtered for meat for generations and not bred, resulting in the docile cattle we have now, I suspect a similar mechanism was in place when slaves were bred.

For the record, I think that was fucking horrible & inhuman, but it's real.

Do you have any evidence for any of this?

Google is your friend...

I'm guessing no, then.

Actually, since I grew up in a state that didn't allow slavery and we really didn't understand what in the hell went on during segregation etc, I've read quite a bit about the subject since moving to Texas.

I'm assuming you're black (or a spammer) because of the avatar, and it's pretty freaking sad that you know that little about the issue, there's census data, diaries, books, etc I didn't make it up. If you are black, then IMHO, you have a moral obligation to learn about it, slavery was allowed in the US for >200 years.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
My question is not whether or not Watson is right, nor do I really care whether or not he is right. My question is: what if different races and genders are inherently different? Should we never acknowledge these differences and insist on trying to bin everyone in the same group, despite existing differences that will always cause this to be less than optimal?

The politically correct answer is a resounding YES. In fact, so much so that the issue shouldn't even be brought up or investigated. Watson touched a third rail and for that he will soon be enjoying retirement.

Obviously, I do think that it's a worthwhile question, even if we don't like the answer nor its implications. Sadly, it's highly doubtful that anyone who denounces Watson as a racist will actually attempt to use scientific evidence or reason to refute his claim.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

The good doctor doesn't seem to touch upon the apparent differences between Asians and whites. Does he hold the same belief structure that Asians > the rest of the world in terms of intelligence?

Perhaps he didn't address that issue since it hadn't come up?

My own take is that I won't be at all surprised if, one hundred years from now, the United States is a third world country and China, Japan, and the rest of the Far East comprise the first world. The Asians only suffered as a result of awful philosophy, but now that much of that has been corrected, their economies are improving or have improved dramatically.

According to the London Daily Times ?Black Africans have emerged as the most highly educated members of British society, surpassing even the Chinese as the most academically successful ethnic minority.?[15] In a side-by-side comparison of 2000 census data by sociologists including John R. Logan at the Mumford Center, State University of New York at Albany, black immigrants from Africa averaged the highest educational attainment of any population group in the U.S., including whites and Asians.

It would be nice to have a greater context of knowledge regarding this issue. It's quite possible that the immigrants were self-selected for having higher IQs than other Africans. There is such a thing as a bell curve for intelligence. It's thus very possible that the subset of people in question are at the high tail of the curve.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Let's go to the metrics, blacks are 15 points lower on the scale than whites, and black females score higher than males on standardized IQ tests that have been modified to decrease the spread in the first place.

Rather than admit there are physical & cognitive measurable differences, we ignore them and bury them in medical texts... We live in an unusual society.

Edit:

A couple points, blacks were selectively bred as slaves, the males for physique/stamina in particular. Most slave owners did not recognize any family structure in their slaves, so they really were selectively bred.

Another factor to consider is that with cattle, the ones that jumped the fence & ran off were outright killed or sold & slaughtered for meat for generations and not bred, resulting in the docile cattle we have now, I suspect a similar mechanism was in place when slaves were bred.

For the record, I think that was fucking horrible & inhuman, but it's real.

1. Can you provide a link(s) that supports that the Mandigo breeding program existed and was widely conducted by slave owners?

2. Race is cultural. In the US, an European dominated country, you are afro-american unless you can pass for white. If intelligence was genetically related to race one would expect to see some sort of causal relationship between percentage of European genes and IQ.

 

[Siddhartha]

Controversial DNA scientist retires

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Let's go to the metrics, blacks are 15 points lower on the scale than whites, and black females score higher than males on standardized IQ tests that have been modified to decrease the spread in the first place.

Rather than admit there are physical & cognitive measurable differences, we ignore them and bury them in medical texts... We live in an unusual society.

Edit:

A couple points, blacks were selectively bred as slaves, the males for physique/stamina in particular. Most slave owners did not recognize any family structure in their slaves, so they really were selectively bred.

Another factor to consider is that with cattle, the ones that jumped the fence & ran off were outright killed or sold & slaughtered for meat for generations and not bred, resulting in the docile cattle we have now, I suspect a similar mechanism was in place when slaves were bred.

For the record, I think that was fucking horrible & inhuman, but it's real.

Do you have any evidence for any of this?

Google is your friend...

I'm guessing no, then.

Actually, since I grew up in a state that didn't allow slavery and we really didn't understand what in the hell went on during segregation etc, I've read quite a bit about the subject since moving to Texas.

I'm assuming you're black (or a spammer) because of the avatar, and it's pretty freaking sad that you know that little about the issue, there's census data, diaries, books, etc I didn't make it up. If you are black, then IMHO, you have a moral obligation to learn about it, slavery was allowed in the US for >200 years.

lol. You still can't show me anything, can you? OK, I get it now. You were just lying.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Controversial DNA scientist retires

Good news.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
My question is not whether or not Watson is right, nor do I really care whether or not he is right. My question is: what if different races and genders are inherently different? Should we never acknowledge these differences and insist on trying to bin everyone in the same group, despite existing differences that will always cause this to be less than optimal?

The politically correct answer is a resounding YES. In fact, so much so that the issue shouldn't even be brought up or investigated. Watson touched a third rail and for that he will soon be enjoying retirement.

Obviously, I do think that it's a worthwhile question, even if we don't like the answer nor its implications. Sadly, it's highly doubtful that anyone who denounces Watson as a racist will actually attempt to use scientific evidence or reason to refute his claim.

It's not the critics job to prove his assertions wrong. It's his job to prove himself right. You cannot prove a negative.

 

[CrazyHelloDeli]

Originally posted by: Siddhartha

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Let's go to the metrics, blacks are 15 points lower on the scale than whites, and black females score higher than males on standardized IQ tests that have been modified to decrease the spread in the first place.

Rather than admit there are physical & cognitive measurable differences, we ignore them and bury them in medical texts... We live in an unusual society.

Edit:

A couple points, blacks were selectively bred as slaves, the males for physique/stamina in particular. Most slave owners did not recognize any family structure in their slaves, so they really were selectively bred.

Another factor to consider is that with cattle, the ones that jumped the fence & ran off were outright killed or sold & slaughtered for meat for generations and not bred, resulting in the docile cattle we have now, I suspect a similar mechanism was in place when slaves were bred.

For the record, I think that was fucking horrible & inhuman, but it's real.

1. Can you provide a link(s) that supports that the Mandigo breeding program existed and was widely conducted by slave owners?

2. Race is cultural. In the US, an European dominated country, you are afro-American unless you can pass for white. If intelligence was genetically related to race one would expect to see some sort of causal relationship between percentage of European genes and IQ.

Breeding A Nation

I'm not sure what you mean by Mandigo breeding, but selective and forced breeding to increase numbers of slaves as well as perpetuating desirable "traits" and removing undesirable ones was widespread after the prohibition on slave trade/trafficking in 1820.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Let's go to the metrics, blacks are 15 points lower on the scale than whites, and black females score higher than males on standardized IQ tests that have been modified to decrease the spread in the first place.

Rather than admit there are physical & cognitive measurable differences, we ignore them and bury them in medical texts... We live in an unusual society.

Edit:

A couple points, blacks were selectively bred as slaves, the males for physique/stamina in particular. Most slave owners did not recognize any family structure in their slaves, so they really were selectively bred.

Another factor to consider is that with cattle, the ones that jumped the fence & ran off were outright killed or sold & slaughtered for meat for generations and not bred, resulting in the docile cattle we have now, I suspect a similar mechanism was in place when slaves were bred.

For the record, I think that was fucking horrible & inhuman, but it's real.

Do you have any evidence for any of this?

Google is your friend...

I'm guessing no, then.

Actually, since I grew up in a state that didn't allow slavery and we really didn't understand what in the hell went on during segregation etc, I've read quite a bit about the subject since moving to Texas.

I'm assuming you're black (or a spammer) because of the avatar, and it's pretty freaking sad that you know that little about the issue, there's census data, diaries, books, etc I didn't make it up. If you are black, then IMHO, you have a moral obligation to learn about it, slavery was allowed in the US for >200 years.

lol. You still can't show me anything, can you? OK, I get it now. You were just lying.

Sorry, hard to keep current with the forums when you work the hours I do, didn't mean to insult you, just thought that this stuff was pretty common knowledge.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Let's go to the metrics, blacks are 15 points lower on the scale than whites, and black females score higher than males on standardized IQ tests that have been modified to decrease the spread in the first place.

Rather than admit there are physical & cognitive measurable differences, we ignore them and bury them in medical texts... We live in an unusual society.

Edit:

A couple points, blacks were selectively bred as slaves, the males for physique/stamina in particular. Most slave owners did not recognize any family structure in their slaves, so they really were selectively bred.

Another factor to consider is that with cattle, the ones that jumped the fence & ran off were outright killed or sold & slaughtered for meat for generations and not bred, resulting in the docile cattle we have now, I suspect a similar mechanism was in place when slaves were bred.

For the record, I think that was fucking horrible & inhuman, but it's real.

Do you have any evidence for any of this?

Google is your friend...

I'm guessing no, then.

Actually, since I grew up in a state that didn't allow slavery and we really didn't understand what in the hell went on during segregation etc, I've read quite a bit about the subject since moving to Texas.

I'm assuming you're black (or a spammer) because of the avatar, and it's pretty freaking sad that you know that little about the issue, there's census data, diaries, books, etc I didn't make it up. If you are black, then IMHO, you have a moral obligation to learn about it, slavery was allowed in the US for >200 years.

lol. You still can't show me anything, can you? OK, I get it now. You were just lying.

Sorry, hard to keep current with the forums when you work the hours I do, didn't mean to insult you, just thought that this stuff was pretty common knowledge.

Yeah, I never heard of this before. Disturbing but I'm also wondering how widespread it was?

 

[CanOWorms]

I think that this guy's statements have given the supremacist far-right in Europe a big push.

 

[Noobtastic]

IT'S SCIENCE!

THOSE WHO SAY NAY ARE YOU STUPID CHRISTIANS WHO NEED TO BE PUT DOWN!

XD

/sarcasm