NOAA: Past Decade Warmest on Record According to Scientists in 48 Countries

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Poptech

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Aug 31, 2007
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Cap and Trade forces a True Cost onto a Product. What I mean by that is: A Products Price does not always factor in all Costs incurred by that Product. One example would be an Automobile which causes damage to Roadways. When you Buy the Auto, the damage to Roadways is not part of the Price you Pay. Gas Taxes and other such things is where that Cost is recouped and channeled towards Roadway Maintenance.

Likewise, the Cost of Fuel at the pump currently does not include the True Cost of CO2 Emissions. In essence everyone has been using Fossil Fuels at a huge discount for Centuries now. A large part of Fossil Fuels price advantage is due to that factor(not all, but much). Cap and Trade helps ascertain the Market Value of that.
No it doesn't, it simply increases the cost of energy and thus the costs of doing anything in the economy. Your argument is for a CO2 tax not cap and trade which is just as bad. Nothing the government does helps ascertain market value, that is an oxymoron.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Again this makes sense only if you don't understand economics. Greece suffers from a bloated bureaucracy and out of control entitlement spending, a picture perfect failure of bog government.


Of course big government is bad, I am pro-liberty and economic prosperity. Cutting is easy, start with all entitlements and just about everything but defense and the court system.

No, it's not easy. Hence why Republicans never actually do it. They just talk about doing it when they need the Votes.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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No it doesn't, it simply increases the cost of energy and thus the costs of doing anything in the economy. Your argument is for a CO2 tax not cap and trade which is just as bad. Nothing the government does helps ascertain market value, that is an oxymoron.

Uhh, no, it's not. I am talking about Cap and Trade.

"Nothing the government does helps ascertain market value, that is an oxymoron."

With all due respect, you're an Idiot. C&T has been hugely successful in the past and it did indeed help ascertain Market Value. Sorry, but Fail.
 

Poptech

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No, it's not easy. Hence why Republicans never actually do it. They just talk about doing it when they need the Votes.
I agree they do not do it, that does not mean it is hard to do. It is rather quite simple,

Cutting Federal Spending (PDF)

- cut federal spending from 21 percent to 16 percent of gross domestic product over 10 years, as detailed in this chapter;
- terminate, privatize, or transfer to state governments more than 100 programs and agencies, including those involved in agriculture, education, housing, and transportation;
- reform Social Security by cutting the growth in government benefits and adding a system of private accounts;
- cut Medicare spending growth and move toward a health care system based on individual savings and choice;
- convert Medicaid into a block grant and freeze federal spending; and impose a statutory cap on the annual growth in total federal outlays.
 

Poptech

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Uhh, no, it's not. I am talking about Cap and Trade.

"Nothing the government does helps ascertain market value, that is an oxymoron."

With all due respect, you're an Idiot. C&T has been hugely successful in the past and it did indeed help ascertain Market Value. Sorry, but Fail.
No unlike you I actually understand economics. Explain to me how severely increasing the cost of energy helps the economy.

Only markets can determine market value. A system of scarcity via government fiat has nothing to with market value.

Cap & Trade Is Not A Market Solution (Robert P. Murphy, Ph.D. Economics)
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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I agree they do not do it, that does not mean it is hard to do. It is rather quite simple,

Cutting Federal Spending (PDF)

When State Government Budgets balloon out of control, then?

When Medicare no longer has Funds to adequately provide Healthcare, then?

When SS/Private Accounts no longer provides adequate Income for Seniors, then?

When Medical Savings Accounts can't pay for required Medical Care, then?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,858
6,394
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No unlike you I actually understand economics. Explain to me how severely increasing the cost of energy helps the economy.

Only markets can determine market value. A system of scarcity via government fiat has nothing to with market value.

Cap & Trade Is Not A Market Solution (Robert P. Murphy, Ph.D. Economics)

If you truly understand Economics, then you are fully aware that Fossil Fuels are not currently Pricing in all Costs associated with Fossil Fuel use. That's because the Markets have no reason to do so and will never have a reason to do so unless that Cost is added via fiat. The Market is simply not a cure all or Universal tracker of all things.

Just more mantra spoken by an Ideologue.
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
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Warmed a little over the past decade. So? Never said otherwise.

I think some people forget WHAT is being challenged. The main challenge isn't whether the earth warmed up a little or not. What is being challenged is the CAUSE of the warming, whether man-made or a natural cause.

So don't bash others over the head with "SEE SEE IT WARMED UP!!!" duh we know that, that isn't the point.

Anyone who says that the globe does not naturally fluctuate in temperature at all is stupid. We had an ice age, and came out of the ice age. All before the industrial revolution and all that. Then we had it colder in the 70s again, and have warmed back up from that. So if the earth has naturally fluctuated before, the hype over being a little warmer now is just retarded.

I read a good article on the whole global warming thing. It's point of discussion was cloud cover, and how it is assumed that it simply works one way. But it asked the question, what if the assumption is wrong, and it actually works the other way? In other words, a negative feedback system instead of a positive feedback system, balancing vs spiraling out of control? It was a good read.

Oh. And I think my sig sums it all up. CO2 is evil. Stop breathing.
 
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Poptech

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When State Government Budgets balloon out of control, then?
State governments need to be drastically cut as well.

When Medicare no longer has Funds to adequately provide Healthcare, then?
So? Medicare should be abolished and all government taxes and regulations on the healthcare industry removed. This includes repealing all government laws that created the current insurance system.

When SS/Private Accounts no longer provides adequate Income for Seniors, then?
The only reasons seniors cannot afford healthcare is because of government intervention in the healthcare industry.

When Medical Savings Accounts can't pay for required Medical Care, then?
In a true free-market medical savings accounts would be able to pay for required care. People don't even understand what the current problems are.

Health Care Mystery: What'll That Cost? (Video) (6min) (ABC News)
Sick in America (Video) (41min) (ABC News)

A Four-Step Health-Care Solution (Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Ph.D. Professor of Economics)
A Way Out of Soviet-Style Health Care (Milton Friedman, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Economics, Nobel Prize for Economics)
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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State governments need to be drastically cut as well.


So? Medicare should be abolished and all government taxes and regulations on the healthcare industry removed. This includes repealing all government laws that created the current insurance system.


The only reasons seniors cannot afford healthcare is because of government intervention in the healthcare industry.


In a true free-market medical savings accounts would be able to pay for required care. People don't even understand what the current problems are.

Health Care Mystery: What'll That Cost? (Video) (6min) (ABC News)
Sick in America (Video) (41min) (ABC News)

A Four-Step Health-Care Solution (Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Ph.D. Professor of Economics)
A Way Out of Soviet-Style Health Care (Milton Friedman, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Economics, Nobel Prize for Economics)

If you want all that stuff gone, why wuss out and not just kill it then? I suspect for the same reason no one has tried to do what you suggest, that is it's not easy in the slightest.

That said, the Canadian Feds did a variation of the pass costs onto the Provinces(States) as part of their successful campaign to eliminate the Deficit. The part you'll not like is that they also cut everything including the Military as well as increasing Taxes and Fees across the board. Approx 4 years of pain, but once the Deficit was gone the Economy benefited tremendously as Government no longer was in Competition for Credit and Debts were being Paid also increasing the Funds circulating in the Economy.

Cuts alone won't work.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
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I can't provide you with TENS of thousands, but how does this do you?

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/06/04/1003187107.full.pdf+html

From the abstract:

Obviously you didn't read my previous link which dealt with that exact "paper" , here's part of it.

"This vindictive search for heretics was the basis for Prall's collaboration with a grad student and Stephen Schneider, who passed away recently, on the paper I criticized in my response at Real Climate.

It is easy to see that their goal was not to further scientific or public understanding of the credibility of scientists discussing climate change. That's because they didn't use any of the quality control checks that are a normal part of social research or bibliometrics, which is the fancy term invented to describe counting the titles of publications in a database because you don't want to read them all.

They started off by breaking the rules. It is possible to discover the names of the people researched in their paper by following a link in the paper to Prall's website. This violates the guarantee of anonymity that is the cornerstone of research. There is no excuse, nor explanation.

Of course, the reason the link is there is to create the blacklist. They sacrificed any supposed research goals in order to show the world their list of the Damned. (And of course, to make sure that any young scientists will get the message that dissent is dangerous, some of the petitions and letters are decades old.)"
 

Poptech

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If you truly understand Economics, then you are fully aware that Fossil Fuels are not currently Pricing in all Costs associated with Fossil Fuel use. That's because the Markets have no reason to do so and will never have a reason to do so unless that Cost is added via fiat. The Market is simply not a cure all or Universal tracker of all things.

Just more mantra spoken by an Ideologue.
Not ideology but economic understanding. Externalities are not market failures,

Why Externalities Are Not a Case of Market Failure (PDF) (Brian P. Simpson, Ph.D. Professor of Economics)
 

Poptech

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If you want all that stuff gone, why wuss out and not just kill it then?
Lack of economic education and emotional attachment to government programs and spending.

That said, the Canadian Feds did a variation of the pass costs onto the Provinces(States) as part of their successful campaign to eliminate the Deficit. The part you'll not like is that they also cut everything including the Military as well as increasing Taxes and Fees across the board. Approx 4 years of pain, but once the Deficit was gone the Economy benefited tremendously as Government no longer was in Competition for Credit and Debts were being Paid also increasing the Funds circulating in the Economy.

Cuts alone won't work.
You missed where I said the states need to drastically cut costs as well. I have no problem with cutting military spending too. I just do not wish to eliminate the military. Increasing taxes however is not necessary with proper cuts as I demonstrated,

Downsizing the Federal Government

Cutting Federal Spending (PDF) (The Cato Institute)

Those who do not understand economics believe that you must raise taxes to get rid of deficits as they fail to recognize why the deficit exists in the first place, wasteful government spending.
 

Poptech

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Obviously you didn't read my previous link which dealt with that exact "paper" , here's part of it.
Here is my complete annihilation of this paper,

Google Scholar illiteracy in the PNAS

A recent paper published in the PNAS, "Expert credibility in climate change" is being used as propaganda to claim that 97% of all climate scientists agree with the IPCC and the need for government action on climate change. An analysis of this paper does not support these conclusions.

PNAS reviewers and author's William R. L. Anderegg, James W. Prall, Jacob Harold and Stephen H. Schneider are apparently Google Scholar illiterate since searching for just the word "climate" with an author's name will bring results from non-peer-reviewed sources such as books, magazines, newspapers, patents, citations, duplicate listings and all sorts of other erroneous results. Such as 16,000 from the Guardian, 52,000 from Newsweek and 115,000 from the New York Times. There is no "peer-reviewed journal only" search option in Google Scholar.


Cherry Picking:

It is clear the authors cherry picked away skeptics using subjective criteria,
we imposed a 20 climate-publications minimum to be considered a climate researcher.
So if a scientist published only 19 or less papers on the climate he is not considered an "expert". They did this intentionally as they noted,
researchers with fewer than 20 climate publications comprise ≈80% the UE group.
Volume of publications does not indicate scientific truth nor does it denote expertise. It cannot be ignored that skeptics extensively publish peer-reviewed papers so they have to use this propaganda to subjectively define "experts". An objective criteria for determining if an author has done climate research would be if an author has or has not published a paper on the climate. Expertise is simply an opinion and who is considered an expert will change based on who you talk to.


Climate Patents:

By default Google Scholar is set to search both "articles and patents" yet no mention of searching only for articles is in the paper. So why were they searching for patents and how is a patent that contains the search word "climate" a relevant "climate publication"?


Verification:

An attempt to reproduce the results using their methods was unsuccessful,
we collected the number of climate-relevant publications for all 1,372 researchers from Google Scholar (search terms: "author:fi-lastname climate")
Using their search terms: "author:fi-lastname climate" I searched Google Scholar for the infamous CRU director Phil Jones,

author: P-Jones climate

Results: 6,580

The first result listed is "Very high resolution interpolated climate surfaces for global land areas" by author Peter G. Jones of the International Center for Tropical Agriculture, Cali, Colombia.

The third result listed is "Organizational climate: A review of theory and research by author Allan P. Jones of the Department of Psychology, University of Houston.

The seventh result listed is "Psychological climate: Dimensions and relationships of individual and aggregated work environment perceptions by author Allan P. Jones of the Department of Psychology, University of Houston.

Clearly these were not papers by Phil Jones of the CRU on climate change.

Looking on Prall's list of IPCC AR4 Working Group 1 Authors referenced from their Supplemental Information you see Phil Jones listed with 724 climate publications not the 6,580 that I found using their search method. A link is provided under "GS queries" for Phil Jones labeled "CLIM", clicking on this link brings a surprising revelation, the search term is changed to "author: PD-Jones climate". When their paper explicitly said "author:fi-lastname climate" and no mention is made of including the middle initial. It appears Prall added the middle initial arbitrarily to the authors on the list further undermining the consistency of their results. Using this search term I again searched Google Scholar,

author: PD-Jones climate

Results: 5,370

The fifth result down is "Climate since A. D. 1500", a 1992 book by Phil Jones not a peer-reviewed paper.

Chapter 13 from the same book is found later in the same results as a separate listing, "13 Climatic variations in the longest instrumental records", thus counting the same book twice.

The book's introduction is also found later in the same results "Climate since AD 1500: Introduction", now counting the same book three times but it gets worse,

Citations for this book are counted over 20 times in Google Scholar, further inflating the erroneous results. No mention of turning off citations is in their paper as this feature is on by default in Google Scholar and in the "CLIM" link from Prall's page.

The climate total number of 724 for Phil Jones on Prall's list is unverifiable using the methods outlined in their paper and appears to be made up.

It is clear they used the total number of climate publications because this is explicitly stated in their paper,
We ranked researchers based on the total number of climate publications authored.
However no verification of these results was done by the authors as they only mention,
We verified, however, author identity for the four top-cited papers by each author.
It appears they only verified the top four results for their "citation analysis" not for the total amount of results using the search word "climate" for each of the 1372 authors. As documented here, without complete verification it is not possible to draw any meaningful conclusions that include erroneous results.

Conclusion: the study is worthless due to Google Scholar illiteracy and Cherry Picking.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,858
6,394
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No completely logical and relevant for the question at hand.

Fail. The paper deals with Externalities, True. However, it deals with them in a totally different sense than what this Issue deals with it. The Market has no Mechanism to Prevent CO2, that's where it fails in this case. We can't wait for Negative affects to occur and People to begin Suing or taking other such Legal Actions. That is simply not an option here and due to the lack of that option, the Price of CO2 needs to be front loaded.

Your Ideology does not work here, sorry.
 

Poptech

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Aug 31, 2007
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Fail. The paper deals with Externalities, True. However, it deals with them in a totally different sense than what this Issue deals with it. The Market has no Mechanism to Prevent CO2, that's where it fails in this case. We can't wait for Negative affects to occur and People to begin Suing or taking other such Legal Actions. That is simply not an option here and due to the lack of that option, the Price of CO2 needs to be front loaded.

Your Ideology does not work here, sorry.
Wrong, the negative affects must be demonstrated before you can make this claim. Otherwise you can use this argument for anything you feel like.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,858
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Wrong, the negative affects must be demonstrated before you can make this claim. Otherwise you can use this argument for anything you feel like.

Like I said, this is why this doesn't work in this situation. Your Ideological position is not capable of addressing this situation.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
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Not ideology but economic understanding. Externalities are not market failures,

Why Externalities Are Not a Case of Market Failure (PDF) (Brian P. Simpson, Ph.D. Professor of Economics)

I like a good deal of content from Mises, but that article is a particularly repulsive turd from start to finish. It is riddled with errors, and poorly written. It makes one insightful point, and that is that it is misleading to conflate positive and negative externalities into a unified analysis of market - er - optimization. Other than that, pretty much all the arguments made in that thing fall flat on their faces. For example, the assertion, made at great length, that the purported negative externality imposed by a single consumer on other consumers in an otherwise free market would precipitate an avalanche of compensatory payments ignores the patently obvious fact that the positive externalities created by the payment would exactly offset the negative externality (by definition of the market clearing itself - a fact which should be trivially obvious to anyone claiming to be an economist!). There are similar fundamental errors throughout...
 

Poptech

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Aug 31, 2007
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I like a good deal of content from Mises, but that article is a particularly repulsive turd from start to finish. It is riddled with errors, and poorly written. It makes one insightful point, and that is that it is misleading to conflate positive and negative externalities into a unified analysis of market - er - optimization. Other than that, pretty much all the arguments made in that thing fall flat on their faces. For example, the assertion, made at great length, that the purported negative externality imposed by a single consumer on other consumers in an otherwise free market would precipitate an avalanche of compensatory payments ignores the patently obvious fact that the positive externalities created by the payment would exactly offset the negative externality (by definition of the market clearing itself - a fact which should be trivially obvious to anyone claiming to be an economist!). There are similar fundamental errors throughout...
I disagree, here are other papers on the same subject,

Environmentalism and Economic Freedom: The Case for Private Property Rights (PDF) (Walter Block, Ph.D. Professor of Economics)
Pollution Externalities: Social Cost and Strict Liability (PDF) (Peter Lewin, Ph.D. Professor of Economics)
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,858
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What situation? Your imagination?

Reality. If the Externalities paper were followed and GW/CC forced millions from their homes, according to that very paper they would have No Recourse as the Cause could not be pinned on a Single Source, but be a Community Source. It completely fails there.

Keep on repeating the Mantra, but it doesn't address this Externality.
 

Poptech

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Reality. If the Externalities paper were followed and GW/CC forced millions from their homes, according to that very paper they would have No Recourse as the Cause could not be pinned on a Single Source, but be a Community Source. It completely fails there.

Keep on repeating the Mantra, but it doesn't address this Externality.
Your alarmist rhetoric regarding forced migration is sci-fi fantasy not based on empirical reality. There is no mantra just economic reality.

The Pigou Problem (PDF) (John Nye, Ph.D. Professor of Economics)

FYI after November all hopes of crippling the U.S. economy with energy taxes will be a pipe dream.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,858
6,394
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Your alarmist rhetoric regarding forced migration is sci-fi fantasy not based on empirical reality. There is no mantra just economic reality.

The Pigou Problem (PDF) (John Nye, Ph.D. Professor of Economics)

FYI after November all hopes of crippling the U.S. economy with energy taxes will be a pipe dream.

Negative. Fail, sorry.