No more nukes in Middle East says UN

[2Xtreme21]

Would you show us where we killed people because of the Bush/Gore election? How about locking up reporters? Maybe shutting down the internet because of it? Shutting down TV and radio stations? How the newspapers?

You see every government will kill it's citizens given the right circumstances. Those however aren't the same in different nations.

Imadinnerjacket has little official power. In theory you could be his public enemy and be immune from reprisals. In practice I think you would find it to be risky business to openly oppose him. You notice there's not a lot of that.

I have no argument that Iran is a more totalitarian state than the US is, but to say we're even remotely better than them because we don't engage in the sort of behavior, is a blatant lie. Maybe not to the degree Iran does, but both Obama and Bush (and I'm sure every president beforehand) have been charged on both sides with crimes against freedom with viable proof backing those charges up. The only difference between our president and Iran's, is that our president can push a button and blow up the world; whereas all Imadinnerjacket can do is get on TV and go all Rush Limbaugh about it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I have no argument that Iran is a more totalitarian state than the US is, but to say we're even remotely better than them because we don't engage in the sort of behavior, is a blatant lie. Maybe not to the degree Iran does, but both Obama and Bush (and I'm sure every president beforehand) have been charged on both sides with crimes against freedom with viable proof backing those charges up. The only difference between our president and Iran's, is that our president can push a button and blow up the world; whereas all Imadinnerjacket can do is get on TV and go all Rush Limbaugh about it.

I'm not thrilled with any of our politicians, but they are at least polite enough not to have protesters shot in the streets.

Consider the leadership currently in charge would be the ones who would "rationally" determine how nukes would be used. Perhaps nothing would come of it, but current actions suggest little confidence.

Now if we hadn't virtually given Iran to the hardliners with the policies of the prior administration I'd have little concern. By now Iran may have been the democracy we tried to create in Iraq and then some.

That's at least a generation away now.

 

[Lemon law]

When our failed policies extend to Iran, at this point in time, no one has an iota of evidence either way to say that Iran is not being totally honest that Iran's nuclear program is limited to only the peace time generation of nuclear power in terms of electrical generation.

Yet at the same time we know 100% for certain, that Israel has bypassed the IAEA and has developed Nuclear weapons.

Why do we believe an Israel as they assert that Iran will peg the first nuclear weapon they can not yet produce straight at Israel when it would be Iranian suicide?

As long as Iran stays under the IAEA regs, the larger world has a degree of control in making sure Iran does not develop reactors of the plutonium breeder reactor design that Israel choose.

Like all rational people, I would prefer to see the mid-east become a nuclear weapons free zone. Which means Israel must surrender its nukes.

As for Israeli security, the entire world, Nato, Russia, China can make it crystal clear to surrounding Arab States, if you dare militarily attack Israel with military force, the entire collective world will be on that Arab State like stink on shit. As waves of planes, guns and tanks decimate that Arab military force long short of any Israeli 1948 borders. Maybe something the UN should have done in 1948 but can easily do in spades now.

Once Israeli security is externally guaranteed, we can honestly address all the other relevant issues in terms of a lasting peace in the mid-east.

But Stateless terrorism that simply follows Israeli injustices has to be evaluated differently. Terrorism is only a symptom of Israeli injustice.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

As for Israeli security, the entire world, Nato, Russia, China can make it crystal clear to surrounding Arab States, if you dare militarily attack Israel with military force, the entire collective world will be on that Arab State like stink on shit

And impose sanctions?

There will be hearings, then representatives sent, then wrangling about what the limits of action will be. Then there will be "peace efforts", then sanctions.

When Israel is destroyed there might be a peace keeping force left to sweep up the bodies.

There is no international army, no nation or group of nations which exists to do as you suggest. Every nation acts in what it perceives to be it's own best interests. If Russia or China thinks that it's expedient to slow things down a bit to increase it's share of ME oil then it will.

Remember Operation Ajax if you think I'm mistaken.

 

[SamurAchzar]

But Stateless terrorism that simply follows Israeli injustices has to be evaluated differently. Terrorism is only a symptom of Israeli injustice.

Can you give an example of an occurrence of this "stateless terrorism" aimed at Israeli targets?

As for Israeli security, the entire world, Nato, Russia, China can make it crystal clear to surrounding Arab States, if you dare militarily attack Israel with military force, the entire collective world will be on that Arab State like stink on shit. As waves of planes, guns and tanks decimate that Arab military force long short of any Israeli 1948 borders. Maybe something the UN should have done in 1948 but can easily do in spades now.

Yea, let the nations of the world look after the wellbeing of the Jews. We all saw how great that went circa 1939

Like all rational people, I would prefer to see the mid-east become a nuclear weapons free zone. Which means Israel must surrender its nukes.

Israeli officials hinted that Israel would disarm right after an complete peace solution with the Arab world is achieved. I'm very much for such a solution, aren't you?

 

[Lemon law]

Earth to Sammy, Earth to sammy, the last time an Arab State made a serious run at Israel was 1973. Has Israel disarmed since?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Earth to Sammy, Earth to sammy, the last time an Arab State made a serious run at Israel was 1973. Has Israel disarmed since?

So that's what victors usually do you in your planet? Disarm without a peace agreement? No wonder you had to flee to Earth.

 

[JEDIYoda]

So that's what victors usually do you in your planet? Disarm without a peace agreement? No wonder you had to flee to Earth.

hahahaa....you totally owned Lemon law!!!

The problem with what Lemon Law is trying to say has to do with the fact that Israel`s very survival depends on this sort of deterrent.

let us say that Israel agrees to no nukes. The Arab states attack and massive genocide takes place.....

idiots like Lemon law will say -- opps.....oh well they deserved it.....

 

[SandEagle]

Israel stations nuclear missile subs off Iran:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7140282.ece


From The Sunday Times

May 30, 2010


"Three German-built Israeli submarines equipped with nuclear cruise missiles are to be deployed in the Gulf near the Iranian coastline.
The first has been sent in response to Israeli fears that ballistic missiles developed by Iran, Syria and Hezbollah, a political and military organisation in Lebanon, could hit sites in Israel, including air bases and missile launchers.
The submarines of Flotilla 7 — Dolphin, Tekuma and Leviathan — have visited the Gulf before. But the decision has now been taken to ensure a permanent presence of at least one of the vessels.
The flotilla’s commander, identified only as “Colonel O”, told an Israeli newspaper: “We are an underwater assault force. We’re operating deep and far, very far, from our borders.”
Each of the submarines has a crew of 35 to 50, commanded by a colonel capable of launching a nuclear cruise missile."


well, i guess we all know now that they have German nuclear-equipped subs.

 

[Lemon law]

The JediYoda contention of "let us say that Israel agrees to no nukes. The Arab states attack and massive genocide takes place.....", if far more bullshit sword and shield to justify present Israel Policy rather than having any rational basis in reality.

Tell me JediYoda, what single Arab nation or even coalition of Arab Nations have a ghost of a chance of now attacking Israel????????????? Israel, all by itself could repel them all without resorting to a single nuke, even with one hand tied behind its back.

The Israeli problem is that military might never inspires any love or acceptance, when its those latter two quantities that Israel most needs to ever have any long term security.

 

[SamurAchzar]

The Israeli problem is that military might never inspires any love or acceptance, when its those latter two quantities that Israel most needs to ever have any long term security.

You will be longing for the same love and acceptance when Muslims bomb your town.

 

[irishScott]

irishScott, in saying, "Lemon Law thinks I "bleat", and then compares Israel to Nazi Germany. /Godwin's Law".

Hate to tell you irishScott, you seem to be totally confused if you think I believe in the non existent validity of the so called Godwin's law. I am simply telling you the honest truth and pardon me if I have total contempt on your invalid deflection.

If you don't think Israel is acting exactly like Hitlers Germany in regard to the Palestinians, please tell this forum why not the honest way.

This is the internet, and you take internet political debates way too seriously. But in any case, fine. Off the top of my head:

1. The Palestinians are not being herded into death camps, staved out, deported, or otherwise eliminated as part of some Israeli "final solution".

2. Israel has not attempted to invade or take over its neighbors, despite arguably having the military capability to do so (at least to some). In fact, it willingly gave back territory it won in war.

3. German Jews were still German, and were pretty integrated into German society before Hitler went nuts on them. Palestinians and Israeli Jews have never been the same people.

3a. The Palestinians, by and large, wouldn't want to live with the Israelis even if it was an option, unlike the German Jews who were, as previously stated, integrated into German communities.

4. The Palestinians have their own government, their own organization, and even their own security forces and military after a fashion.

5. Israel actually halted construction of most settlements and met other conditions for discussing peace with Palestinians. Hitler would hardly have done so.

6. Israel pulled out of Gaza a while ago. Hitler would have sent in storm troopers.

Like I said, I could go on, and if I as was as fanatical as you and IHV I could stick around and quote the historical difference for hours. Nice thing about history, the major events are pretty well established outside of the conspiracy circles, so it's easy to compare events.

Oh, and this law you have such contempt for actually has validity on a logical basis. It is a manifestation of the logical argument that comparing one thing to something far more extreme (in the case of Godwin's Law, Nazis and Hitler) renders the comparison invalid as the two comparators are too different to be accurately compared. In one line: Apples and Freight Trains.

 

[Lemon law]

IrishScott, to only address yout first wrong 2.5 out of three points of,

"1. The Palestinians are not being herded into death camps, staved out, deported, or otherwise eliminated as part of some Israeli "final solution".( At best you are half right, Israel has done everything Hitler did to Jews except for herding them into gas chambers. Still same fast shuffle, steal their land, herd them into a concentration camp, and give them no hope. )

2. Israel has not attempted to invade or take over its neighbors, despite arguably having the military capability to do so (at least to some). In fact, it willingly gave back territory it won in war. (100% wrong, Israel without being actually being attacked in 1967&73 used the excuse of possible Arab mobilization to illegitimately seize land it can never own. Other than the US brokered Israeli give back of the worthless can't grow a weed Sinai desert, Israel has not given back anything. And until Obama finally said, oh no you don't, Israel has been ever since been building settlements in East Jerusalem and
the West Bank on land they can never own. )

3. German Jews were still German, and were pretty integrated into German society before Hitler went nuts on them. Palestinians and Israeli Jews have never been the same people. ( Sorry Charlie, simply not true, long before the first Russian Jew emigrated to what is now Israel, an eclectic mix of Palestinians and Arabs occupied and called home, what is now a part of the former British mandate of Palestine. As more and more Jews were imported prior to WW2, some racial tensions developed, but at the same time, many Jews, Arabs , and Palestinians found ways to coexist both peacefully and for the mutual benefit of all. And in terms of the British administrator of the Palestinian mandate the most radical terrorists were Jewish. Then the European nations, the very rascals who created and ignored the Holocaust concocted a brilliant plan to dump all the Jewish refugees they screwed on the Arabs and Palestinians by creating the State of Israel in 1948. As the Brits left, stage left, about two thirds of the land in Israel was then owned by native Palestinians and Arabs and the rest by Jews. Historical point granted, another totally different group, citizens of Arab nations with armies unfairly attacked Israel, and were justly repelled with superior Israel organization. The point being, those Arabs and Palestinians that happened to reside inside of the 1948 borders of Israel had no real arms, did not attack Israel, but because they were weak and powerless, they became the victims of Israeli Nazi tactics. And for no damn reason at all their land was stolen and they were exiled to concentration camps, a shame Israel will never escape. The fact is and remains, a just Israeli State can't be built on that shameful basis, and after 62 years its becoming all the more apparent by the day. )

Some may say that that Israel, holy to three religions can only be be owned Jews, and I ask why can't it be fairly shared by all three groups?

 

[Noobtastic]

The "Gaza strip" is the PC way of defining a concentration camp. The Gazans have no free trade with the outside world, land locked by Israel and Egypt (who is under pressure from Israel) and sea locked (no outside access to Gaza from Mediterrenean sea because of Israel navy), blockaded. Fuel and electricity controlled by Israel... A modern nightmare of a country

Concentration camp?

Way to trivilize the holocaust.

Israel has zero trade obligations with Gaza. Israel is a sovereign state. Gaza is not part of Israel nor is it occupied by it.

Egypt is under pressure from the US, not Israel - but Egypt shut down their borders with Gaza well before Israel.

And unlike Israel, which ships in 10,000 tons of aid a week, Egypt sends squat.

Oh wow, tell me Oric, here is Israel - the enemy - being subject to daily rocket and mortar attacks, and it is escorting aid into Gaza.

Hamas' only expense is military and administration. They have no responsibility because the international community is paying for the Gazans to live.

Look at this concentration camp...

look at this fatty..

Those Gazans must be starving.

What, with their 75 life expectancy (higher than Egypt and Jordan), free money from the UN, Israel, and EU... gosh darnit, give em' more!!!111

Tell me Oric, what has Turkey done for the Palestinians? They've done squat, because Muslims don't give a shit about other Muslims.

I've seen how Turkey totally demolishes their Kurdish enemies and subjects them to apartheid status. I've seen how Egypt discriminates against their Christian minority. I've seen how overwhelmingly-muslim PLO has driven out the Christian minority.

I just love seeing Islamic apologist bitch and whine about the Zionists, when the Zionists treat their enemies better than how their enemies treat themselves.

Earth to Sammy, Earth to sammy, the last time an Arab State made a serious run at Israel was 1973. Has Israel disarmed since?

Why should Israel disarm?

Peace has been established because the Arabs know they can not defeat Israel conventionally.

US support for Israel didn't seriously begin until after the yom kippur war, when Israel became a legitimate threat to global oil.

the Arab states were willing to sabotage their economies for Israel, and Israel was willing to convert the Arab states into a radioactive desert if its sovereignty was threatened again as it was in 73.

Now, for 30 years - peace has been established (informally of course), and while the Arab states continue to call for Israel's destruction, we all know when the war actually begins they'll be begging the UN for a cease-fire 5 hours later.

Just like Hamas and Hezbollah.

I think people like LL are just pissed the Israel/A/P conflict is largely contained. Anything close to a resolution would be an end to his whole world.

He loves to hate Israel. If the Palestinians get their state and the Arabs no longer have their scapegoat, what would happen to LL? Geez...he would disappear.

 

[Oric]

IHV : Here is a recent article for Israel's Daily Haaretz

"How Gaza flotilla drives Israel into a sea of stupidity"

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...rives-israel-into-a-sea-of-stupidity-1.292959

Only one voice spoiled the illusory celebration a little: an Amnesty International report on the situation in Gaza. Four out of five Gaza residents need humanitarian assistance. Hundreds are waiting to the point of embarrassment to be allowed out for medical treatment, and 28 already have died. This is despite all the Israeli army spokesman's briefings on the absence of a siege and the presence of assistance, but who cares?

 

[Lemon law]

Now, IHV, once people have enough food to live, they always hunger for the freedom and self determination that one cannot get imprisoned in Gaza.

In American and the rest of the world, we imprison people, take away their freedom, and put them in Iron cages as a punishment for being bad.

Israel has dome the same things to all its native Palestinians and almost all of its Arabs, not for being bad, but as a collective racial punishment for being non-Jewish, after after Israel stole their land in the bargain.

So please do not try to feed this forum your bullshit about the abundance of Palestinian food which is false in the bargain, and just call it what it is, Israel has JAILED the Palestinian people simply because they are Palestinians and stripped away all their freedom, human rights, self determination, and dignity from them in the process.

IHV, you would scream bloody murder if it happened to you, yet you say nothing when Israel does it to someone else.

With freedom being something every people have an inalienable right to.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Yet at the same time we know 100% for certain, that Israel has bypassed the IAEA and has developed Nuclear weapons.

This is a very disingenuous statement right here to try to paint Israel as a nation which ignored an obligation via a treaty which it never signed in the first place unlike Iran which you go off on a apologist rant to absolve.

 

[Oric]

Iran narrowly wins the UN nuclear battle

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10190356.stm

Israel was the big loser in the nuclear review conference in New York - and Iran the big winner.

The cause of nuclear non-proliferation was haltingly served in that the conference did reach a consensus, unlike the last time, and a number of watered-down measures were agreed to seek ways of strengthening the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). But overall, there was not the decisive strengthening that some states wanted.

Instead, governments rallied round one objective - the concept of a nuclear weapons-free zone in the Middle East. This was first called for 15 years ago but until now neglected.

To its annoyance, Israel found that the US did not block a proposal to hold a one-off conference in 2012 on setting up such a zone. In addition Israel was named for not being a party to the treaty and for not having its nuclear activities under international inspection. Being named like this is always regarded as a diplomatic defeat.

 

[Lemon law]

This is a very disingenuous statement right here to try to paint Israel as a nation which ignored an obligation via a treaty which it never signed in the first place unlike Iran which you go off on a apologist rant to absolve.

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No Duca, I am simply pointing out the hypcracy of Israel as they loudly demand the right to violent enforce the IAEA rules Israel bypassed. Why do we even listen to anything Israel has to say about IAEA rules and Iran?

After all, Iran has the right to withdraw from the non proliferation treaty and then would have the same rights and lofty status as Israel. Is that what you prefer, DucatiMonster696?

 

[Noobtastic]

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No Duca, I am simply pointing out the hypcracy of Israel as they loudly demand the right to violent enforce the IAEA rules Israel bypassed. Why do we even listen to anything Israel has to say about IAEA rules and Iran?

After all, Iran has the right to withdraw from the non proliferation treaty and then would have the same rights and lofty status as Israel. Is that what you prefer, DucatiMonster696?

Israel never signed the NPT and thus does not have to live up to its obligations.

Unlike, say - NK and Iran, which must follow the treaty.

why LL are you so enraged by Israel's 4 decade nuclear program, yet indifferent to Pakistan and India's (not signatory to the NPT), even though they have almost nuked each other in 3 separate conflicts.

Iran is in violation of its NPT treaty and international law by its prolific sponsorship of terrorism and threats against a UN-member state.

Naturally, of course - Lemon Loser must apologize for Israel's fascist enemies.

After all, they aren't Zionist.

Who cares if they're racist, bigots, and committed to the elimination of Jews.

In some way, I wish Iran would get nukes and attack Israel, just so I can say Lemon Law to go fuck himself.

 

[Noobtastic]

Now, IHV, once people have enough food to live, they always hunger for the freedom and self determination that one cannot get imprisoned in Gaza.

In American and the rest of the world, we imprison people, take away their freedom, and put them in Iron cages as a punishment for being bad.

Israel has dome the same things to all its native Palestinians and almost all of its Arabs, not for being bad, but as a collective racial punishment for being non-Jewish, after after Israel stole their land in the bargain.

Closing borders does not make Gaza a prison

Perhaps if Hamas did not call for Israel's destruction and subject its civilians to collective punishment, then Israel wouldn't end trade with Gaza.

ISRAEL IS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO TRADE WITH ANOTHER STATE.

South Korea shut down trade with north korea, which will likely affect millions of people.

Yet, no one accuses SK of collective punishment, even though it won't ship a single grain of rice.

Unlike Israel, which escorts thousands of tons of aid into Gaza even as Hamas seizes said aid - while the Arab states donate SQUAT.

Lemon Law, you have no credibility as you bash Israel for the "blockade" while Egypt does the exact same thing.

Exploitative, racist, and antisemitic - just like every trolling leftist on this forum.

blind to reality.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Now, IHV, once people have enough food to live, they always hunger for the freedom and self determination that one cannot get imprisoned in Gaza.

In American and the rest of the world, we imprison people, take away their freedom, and put them in Iron cages as a punishment for being bad.

Israel has dome the same things to all its native Palestinians and almost all of its Arabs, not for being bad, but as a collective racial punishment for being non-Jewish, after after Israel stole their land in the bargain.

I wonder what the 25% of the Israeli population, which are Muslim Arabs, so-called "Palestinians", who live in Israel in unparalleled freedom and prosperity compared to their own countries, would think about your uninformed drivel.

The problem is Palestinians aren't mature enough for governing themselves, and no country would want to nurture a Taliban terrorist state right near its border, hence the situation in Gaza. Better to keep them unarmed, really, for the sake of the death toll in both sides.

 

[Noobtastic]

I wonder what the 25% of the Israeli population, which are Muslim Arabs, so-called "Palestinians", who live in Israel in unparalleled freedom and prosperity compared to their own countries, would think about your uninformed drivel.

The problem is Palestinians aren't mature enough for governing themselves, and no country would want to nurture a Taliban terrorist state right near its border, hence the situation in Gaza. Better to keep them unarmed, really, for the sake of the death toll in both sides.

What? Facts? LL CANNOT COMPUTE...ERROR...ERROR....

Gaza is the closest thing to a sovereign Palestine, and still LL blames Israel even though not a single Israeli lives in Gaza.

Palestinians are mature enough to govern themselves. Hamas' iron-first rule in Gaza is certainly more functional than any of our puppet governments in Iraq and Afghanistans. Gazans still enjoy a higher standard of living than the millions we have displaced in our overseas wars.

 

[Lemon law]

Gotta love that sammy arrogance in saying, "The problem is Palestinians aren't mature enough for governing themselves, and no country would want to nurture a Taliban terrorist state right near its border, hence the situation in Gaza. Better to keep them unarmed, really, for the sake of the death toll in both sides."

As Israel assumes the white man's burden. An ideal rationale to steal land, hold people in bondage, but Israel will somehow bear the noble sacrifice for every ones benefit????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Funny, that is the oldest piece of bullshit in the world, it justified European colonialism, its justifies slave holding, and it justified Jim Crow in the South. If you believe your own bullshit, you are truly a pathetic human being incapable of rational thought.

And those are your words quoted directly back at you. But to be fair, this forum should grant a chance for you to repudiate your own words or forever be deemed a fool.

 

[Noobtastic]

As Israel assumes the white man's burden. An ideal rationale to steal land, hold people in bondage, but Israel will somehow bear the noble sacrifice for every ones

Israel has not territorial ambitions in Gaza.

It evicted 9,000 of its own people - to create a Jew-free Gaza.

Abbas hailed it as an historic gesture. Palestinians responded by electing a terrorist government.

Can you defend the Palestinians without citing bullshit buzzwords like stolen land zomg11!!!

Guess what LL, you live on stolen land. Go back to Britain you settler.