NJ Teacher's Union refusing minor paycut

[BlahBlahYouToo]

1st let me say i think the teachers union does far more damage on how well children learn then it helps. it spends far to much time protecting shitty teachers and doign stupid shit like this to be usefull.


but really if you think they only work th e9 months you are insane.

they have to go for training in the summer, summer school and many other things.

also many go to work early and are pretty much "on call" nearly all night.

uhh, no. i have several friends that are teachers and other than grading tests and prepping lesson plans "after hours", they have the easiest schedule ever.
and i say "after hours" because their hours are 8-3pm, not your typical 9-6. when they get home, they put in another couple of hours so it evens out in the end.

they get like 2-3 weeks off during the school year for various breaks. every summer, they bug me to go out, travel, go on trips because they have nothing else to do.

and what is this on call you speak of?

 

[MJinZ]

haha mjinz is one of those guys who does unpaid overtime.

Real men punch the clock every day and get paid for their overtime. This isn't Walmart.

If you've never heard of salary, then there is no point to this conversation.

 

[PingSpike]

I've thought about changing careers and becoming a teacher because it looks like a seriously plum gig. Lots of time off, solid pay (actually around here it seems a lot better then average in the private sector...not sure what planet they are on where they think their salary is lower then most other stuff), totally BADASS pension that just can't be gotten elsewhere (I'm not even planning on retiring! Just planning on dying!), basic healthcare benefits, paid training, regular hours and the big one JOB SECURITY (Don't have sex with the students and otherwise you're pretty set)

But I figure that house of cards would probably collapse before I got there because the unions keep refusing to take tiny concessions to keep the jobless public at bay while the whole economy is in the shit. They have so much good will to burn up, but around here they can't even go without a raise for one year while the economy is way in the toilet so they're starting to look pretty damn greedy. I think it was a shitty paying job in the 70s or something so everyone still kind of thinks they're suffering, but they keep drawing a lot of attention to themselves every time some one wants them to pay part of their health insurance, which I think is a mistake. They should try to fly under the radar.

And, since its a union shop you know the new guys are the ones who are going to get screwed first. They'll grandfather in the old ones with all the benefits, slap a 401k on the new ones, maybe lower the starting salaries. Probably healthcare will go up, but who's doesn't? It'll still be a pretty good gig, but I don't think I want to retrain unless I can get that pension. And the real thing is, it is really really hard to get into the system in the first place around here since its such a sweet setup no one ever leaves and there's a ton of competition for the few job openings that come up. I don't have a family member already in the system to get me a job so it'd be really hard to break in. Around here, that's the easiest way.

 

[StageLeft]

The same way you measure performance for any other kind of worker?

Evaluations from parents
Evaluations from students
Student performance on standardized tests
Observers that sit in on random classes

It's the biggest stymie ever that teachers still have not seemingly found a good way to measure their own performance. All they do is poke holes in options that do come along to measure it.

Fact: if your performance cannot be measured you probably aren't performing at all.

It's not brain surgery. My daughter's teacher right now kicks huge ass, state testing or not. I know it and would praise her in any review as I'm sure every other parent in that class would do. Of my teachers in school some were ok, one I liked a decent bit, a few I thought were fvcking garbage, just sh*t terrible teachers. This is not so mystical as the teachers' union tries to portray it as being.

Agree with all of pingspike's last post.

 

[rudder]

Lets see you take a pay cut first and then get back to us.

He makes $157,000 per year. I bet if you looked at the number of hours worked... he probably makes the same hourly rate as teachers.

 

[episodic]

incase you haven't noticed virtually EVERYONE has taken a paycut of some kind. delusional dumb cunts

Wow. I love how all of my statements were ignored and then reduced to this? I don't think I need to say anymore.

 

[episodic]

You forgot to reconcile this with the fact that NJ is getting curb stomped fiscally now. It has no damn money. There HAVE to be cuts OR big tax increases. Cristie is probably the first politician since the dawn of man who's actually (mostly) doing what he said he'd do in his election. It's scaring the hell out of these teachers. Beautiful.

So how about doing what I said instead of doing it to teachers. Cut administration. Cut superintendent salaries. Cut bussing. Cut standardized testing. Lots of places to cut before you cut teachers.

 

[episodic]

Honestly, I don't think teaching IS a very skilled job. As Red Dawn put it earlier I think its basically become a babysitting position.. if you can teach them to read during that process, then you are a step ahead.. But honestly, couldn't most CPA's step in and teach high school math.. Couldn't most engineers teach science courses? Couldn't any personal trainer handle the gym? Couldn't anyone reasonable well read teach literature?



-------------

Ha. And I'll say it again - HA! - most accountants wouldn't survive a day in a public high school. I'd say 3/5 would leave at lunch and never return. Not every class is an honors class. Keep this in mind.

 

[episodic]

Sports are a vital part of child development and have a very valid place in the school environment.

Social development, self-respect, discipline, and the lessons of winning and losing are all important.. and all provided by sports.

So let the parents pay for the sports. Have community teams. Provide PE - sure. . . but not all the money and craziness associated with sports.

 

[episodic]

Well, I think you'd have to set realistic performance targets for the teachers to hit based on the circumstances.

You actually expect that anyone will do that? Heck look at the performance standard now. ALL children will need to be 100% proficient by 2013-2014. Anyone who has a middle school understanding of statistics knows this is impossible - but this is the benchmark schools will be judged by. So that is one of many reasons why teachers have tenure - to protect them from unrealistic demands from the outside world.

 

[Blackjack200]

You actually expect that anyone will do that? Heck look at the performance standard now. ALL children will need to be 100% proficient by 2013-2014. Anyone who has a middle school understanding of statistics knows this is impossible - but this is the benchmark schools will be judged by. So that is one of many reasons why teachers have tenure - to protect them from unrealistic demands from the outside world.

ok, how do you propose we get rid of bad teachers and keep (and reward) the good ones?

I disagree with most of the shit said about teachers in this thread, especially the crap about it being a "dream job" (lol, wtf?) but I've never heard a good argument why tenure is necessary or even a good thing.

 

[ModerateRepZero]

Ha. And I'll say it again - HA! - most accountants wouldn't survive a day in a public high school. I'd say 3/5 would leave at lunch and never return. Not every class is an honors class. Keep this in mind.

Yes, you need more than subject knowledge to be able to teach (just think of the classic Ben Stein "Bueler...Bueler..." scene), and people have different ways of learning. If teaching was only about ensuring Mensa candidates learned the right information, teaching would be a snap. But in most cases teachers will have to accommodate a wide variety of students who differ in their ability and also capacity/method of learning.....especially if the teacher is forced to handle "mainstreamed" learning disabled students.

 

[ModerateRepZero]

I disagree with most of the shit said about teachers in this thread, especially the crap about it being a "dream job" (lol, wtf?) but I've never heard a good argument why tenure is necessary or even a good thing.

Afaik, the main reason for tenure is to protect academic freedom. Now that makes sense for college professors, but generally speaking grade-school teachers don't engage in any academically controversial work or activities. I'm all in favor of limiting tenure to academic protection.....tenure can and has been used to shield incompetence, which is terrible practice, especially considering the due process already in place.

 

[ShawnD1]

So let the parents pay for the sports. Have community teams. Provide PE - sure. . . but not all the money and craziness associated with sports.

This. Nobody gives a shit about school sports where I live, but people still play sports. This idea that kids will only play sports if it's part of school is absurd.

 

[episodic]

ok, how do you propose we get rid of bad teachers and keep (and reward) the good ones?

I disagree with most of the shit said about teachers in this thread, especially the crap about it being a "dream job" (lol, wtf?) but I've never heard a good argument why tenure is necessary or even a good thing.

Fine here we go:

1. Have a team composed of teachers who are nationally board certified in the subject area to evaluate lessons, to sit in on classes unannounced, and who interview a broad spectrum of kids that the teacher teaches in a private manner. Ensure these teachers do not teach at the district and that they have no personal conflicts with the teacher. Allow them liberal access to the teacher's record. Have these evaluations randomly - not everyone gets evaluated yearly (cost and time involved would be more intense). Interview colleagues. Interview the school principal. Interview the counselor. Interview parents from different socio economic and racial groups which are all fairly represented. With all of these interviews you should have a good measure of a teacher's ability. Design an improvement plan that EVERY teacher gets. Do not make it punitive - UNLESS - not followed or ignored. Teachers who do not follow these improvement plans should then be disciplined.

Say 30% of the staff should go through this each year - new teachers yearly until a certain point decided locally. When next evaluated the teacher would need to have a detailed folder full of proof of their attempts to follow the improvement plan. End standardized testing totally. The only tests colleges look at are grade point averages, difficulty of classes taken, and ACT/SAT scores. This should be enough.

After 5-10 excellent ratings and national board certifications, allow these excellent teachers to be evaluators.

2. Allow teachers academic freedom. Most people don't realize that teachers (especially math and English) are FORCED to teach scripted curriculums. It is crazy to evaluate professionals for regurgitating a scripted curriculum that tells you to be on page 97 problem 10 at a certain date. These decisions are political, yet the teacher gets blamed when they do not work. Allow every teacher to do it their way. You will get wonderful diversity and maybe not wreck the souls of so many talented professionals. Principals should review lesson plans and ensure that the teachers are teaching the proscribed curriculum and follow up with some class visits. In other words, all teachers have to teach histograms - but leave it up to the teacher to design the lesson.

3. Allow teachers more planning time. Teachers could design wonderful interdisciplinary units with other teachers more often if they had more time.

4. Ensure you have top of the line principals. They are paid excellent salaries.

5. Back teachers up as an authority figure. End the discipline mess in most schools. If you can't behave and let others learn, you need a special alternative program.

6. Give teacher's respect and recognition. All they get is dumped on. The reality is that most teachers cannot change a student's background in 50 minutes a day 9 months of the year. You have an occasional superstar in the field - such as Jaime Escalante was. Is this not true of every field? No one expects every NBA player to be as good as Michael Jordan, yet everyone seems to have these unrealistic expectations for teachers. Everyone knows that home is where education and respect begins. I don't know what ever happened to the common sense that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't really make them drink.

7. Allow teachers to earn extra money for tutoring, doing weekend extensions with kids, etc. Don't expect them to walk on water for free. I know alot of teachers get 'some' extra pay for doing these things, but it is normally not that good.

8. Realize that the median pay for teachers vary widely. In some states you are lucky to start in the mid 20's and retire 20 years later in your lower 40's. Many many states go from around low 30's on the pay scale to mid 40's. Only a few states do much better than this.

 

[cumhail]

You forgot to reconcile this with the fact that NJ is getting curb stomped fiscally now. It has no damn money. There HAVE to be cuts OR big tax increases. Cristie is probably the first politician since the dawn of man who's actually (mostly) doing what he said he'd do in his election. It's scaring the hell out of these teachers. Beautiful.

You mean like when he said this:
http://www.christiefornj.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=468&Itemid=64

 

[Patranus]

Classic
(along the same lines - doesn't deserve its own thread)

A group of Oakland parents, frustrated by a nearly two-year battle to remove a reportedly abusive teacher, went on strike Thursday, pulling their children out of school and onto a picket line at the district's downtown headquarters.

Close to 80 percent of Lazear Elementary School's 300 students didn't show up for school Thursday - a loss of almost $9,000 in state funding for the day - and apparently a wake-up call for district and teachers union officials who met with the parents Thursday afternoon to try to resolve the issue.

Thursday's strike exemplified one of the more common complaints in public education. Too often, the solution to bad teachers is to shuffle them to another school to avoid the costly two-year process to fire them - what is known as a dance of the lemons.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/04/15/MN6E1CVBM6.DTL

Thank you unions - you have done wonders for this country.

 

[DrPizza]

Fine here we go:
2. Allow teachers academic freedom. Most people don't realize that teachers (especially math and English) are FORCED to teach scripted curriculums. It is crazy to evaluate professionals for regurgitating a scripted curriculum that tells you to be on page 97 problem 10 at a certain date. These decisions are political, yet the teacher gets blamed when they do not work.

Huh? Scripted? For my geometry class, I have 74 performance indicators that my students may be tested on during their state exam. Last Friday was the last day of the 3rd quarter. I have 8 weeks left. I'm done. I've frequently gone well beyond the curriculum and push students with much more difficult problems than they'd find on their state exam. I got to choose which textbook I was going to use - I rarely use the textbook. I have high hopes for about 1/3 of my class to get 100's on their state exam (my wife is going to kill me, because a 100% = dinner at a nice restaurant.) But scripted? Other than a list of 74 performance indicators, and needing to make sure I follow IEPs to the letter, I have complete autonomy in the classroom. My students just completed a video project for their last unit, learning how to use a variety of common software applications in the process to edit clips that they filmed, etc.

My physics class had fun today (next week is our Spring break, so this is the last day before a week off) doing a lab with jello jigglers by cutting them into lenses so they understood how lenses work via refraction, etc. Neigher are in the curriculum - jello jigglers or lenses (lenses were in the curriculum until about 8 years ago.) Again, autonomy in the classroom. Without tenure, there's no f-ing way I'm going to do anything other than teach exactly what I'm supposed to teach. I would fear going beyond the curriculum because some helicopter parent might complain that I'm making the course too hard for their child by going beyond the state curriculum so often.

While I'll agree - tenure makes it hard to get rid of bad teachers in schools, it's absolutely necessary to protect the good teachers. Furthermore, tenure is necessary for the good teachers to stand up to the administration when making decisions that are in the best interests of the students, particularly when standing up to the board of education when the board is charged with balancing the best interests of the children with the costs to the district. Without tenure, school boards, or rather, groups within the community could work to get control of school boards, not for the interests of the students, but for their own interests (most likely cutting taxes.) Without tenure, it's impossible for anyone to criticize their actions or take a stand.

 

[Patranus]

While I'll agree - tenure makes it hard to get rid of bad teachers in schools, it's absolutely necessary to protect the good teachers.

Why is tenure "necessary" to "protect" good teachers?

That statement contradicts itself.

Protect them from what?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Why is tenure "necessary" to "protect" good teachers?

That statement contradicts itself.

Protect them from what?

He answered the question you posed; but cut out of your snipped quote.

Teachers are at war with the students; parents and administration.

The good teachers need protection from bogus retaliation so they can do the job expected of them

 

[ShawnD1]

Why is tenure "necessary" to "protect" good teachers?

That statement contradicts itself.

Protect them from what?

It's always easy to tell when someone has never had a real job in their entire life.

Go ahead and speak out against your boss. Point out everything they are doing that is hurting the company and exactly why they should be replaced. There's no way this will backfire. Tenure is not needed to protect your job.

 

[episodic]

Huh? Scripted? For my geometry class, I have 74 performance indicators that my students may be tested on during their state exam. Last Friday was the last day of the 3rd quarter. I have 8 weeks left. I'm done. I've frequently gone well beyond the curriculum and push students with much more difficult problems than they'd find on their state exam. I got to choose which textbook I was going to use - I rarely use the textbook. I have high hopes for about 1/3 of my class to get 100's on their state exam (my wife is going to kill me, because a 100% = dinner at a nice restaurant.) But scripted? Other than a list of 74 performance indicators, and needing to make sure I follow IEPs to the letter, I have complete autonomy in the classroom. My students just completed a video project for their last unit, learning how to use a variety of common software applications in the process to edit clips that they filmed, etc.

My physics class had fun today (next week is our Spring break, so this is the last day before a week off) doing a lab with jello jigglers by cutting them into lenses so they understood how lenses work via refraction, etc. Neigher are in the curriculum - jello jigglers or lenses (lenses were in the curriculum until about 8 years ago.) Again, autonomy in the classroom. Without tenure, there's no f-ing way I'm going to do anything other than teach exactly what I'm supposed to teach. I would fear going beyond the curriculum because some helicopter parent might complain that I'm making the course too hard for their child by going beyond the state curriculum so often.

While I'll agree - tenure makes it hard to get rid of bad teachers in schools, it's absolutely necessary to protect the good teachers. Furthermore, tenure is necessary for the good teachers to stand up to the administration when making decisions that are in the best interests of the students, particularly when standing up to the board of education when the board is charged with balancing the best interests of the children with the costs to the district. Without tenure, school boards, or rather, groups within the community could work to get control of school boards, not for the interests of the students, but for their own interests (most likely cutting taxes.) Without tenure, it's impossible for anyone to criticize their actions or take a stand.

Asked my cousin who teaches 7th grade about this. Many high school teachers do have more 'freedom'. Where she works they have a pacing guide and a curriculum they have to follow to the letter.

 

[Patranus]

It's always easy to tell when someone has never had a real job in their entire life.

Go ahead and speak out against your boss. Point out everything they are doing that is hurting the company and exactly why they should be replaced. There's no way this will backfire. Tenure is not needed to protect your job.

Teachers are not hired to run schools. That is the job of the principal. Maybe if they spent their time teaching instead of taking on the administration "good" teachers wouldn't be threatened with termination.

Teachers are the employees.
The principal is the boss.

Its not rocket science.

 

[nonlnear]

It's always easy to tell when someone has never had a real job in their entire life.

Go ahead and speak out against your boss. Point out everything they are doing that is hurting the company and exactly why they should be replaced. There's no way this will backfire. Tenure is not needed to protect your job.

The problem is not that the employees need protection. That is just a bad kludge to compensate for the perverse management structure. The executives are not accountable to the shareholders, and are only barely accountable to the customers. When your market and revenue are guaranteed by the state, you lose accountability at the top, which is why administration has such a free hand with the employees. If schools weren't latched onto the government tit, you would see a diversity of management structures. You might see some teacher owned schools, or parent owned co-ops arise that bring such a breath of organizational fresh air, you'd wonder what the hell we were thinking back in the stone ages of monolithic state education.

 

[episodic]

The problem is not that the employees need protection. That is just a bad kludge to compensate for the perverse management structure. The executives are not accountable to the shareholders, and are only barely accountable to the customers. When your market and revenue are guaranteed by the state, you lose accountability at the top, which is why administration has such a free hand with the employees. If schools weren't latched onto the government tit, you would see a diversity of management structures. You might see some teacher owned schools, or parent owned co-ops arise that bring such a breath of organizational fresh air, you'd wonder what the hell we were thinking back in the stone ages of monolithic state education.

Or more likely you'd get the 'big box' schools come in and homogenize everything in the name of slashing cost and raising shareholder profits.

Low salaries - check
Crappy health insurance - check
No security - check