And why is that? How many terrorirst acts by Hezbollah can you point out in say, the last 5 years?
And why is that? How many terrorirst acts by Hezbollah can you point out in say, the last 5 years?
You must have missed the memo about Hezbollah's rocket attacks on Israeli civilian populations from Lebanon on almost a daily basis for the last five or six years.. ever since Israel withdrew from Lebanon under the treaty they signed. :roll:
Under that treaty, Lebanon promised to disarm Hezbollah and take command of their souther regions to stop the attacks. Of course, that's before they pulled the kidnapping stunt to escallate things to where they are, now. :|
The problem is of course that there is a very thin line between terrorism and armed resistance. Most people would e.g. not consider the French resistance during WWII to be a terrorist organization despite the fact that their methods were very similar to Hezbollah's.
The same can be said about ANC 20 years ago, the fact that most people considered them to be freedom fighters is because they liked the apartheid system. Mandela was the head of ANCs armed branch before he went to jail (as far as I remember that WAS the reason why he was sent to jail) and despite that I haven't heard anyone (outside of SA) call him a terrorist.
I.e. it depends on your point of view.
The same can be said about ANC 20 years ago, the fact that most people considered them to be freedom fighters is because they liked the apartheid system. Mandela was the head of ANCs armed branch before he went to jail (as far as I remember that WAS the reason why he was sent to jail) and despite that I haven't heard anyone (outside of SA) call him a terrorist.
I.e. it depends on your point of view.
Unlike all of your other examples, this was Hezbollah coming onto Israeli soil to kill Israeli civilians, not the other way around.
They took Israeli soldiers as POW. Israel kidnaps people (mostly civilians) from Lebanon, Gaza, Italy, you name it, regularly. Yet I don't see you proclaiming Israel a terrorist state.
Yup. When it's your guys, they are Freedom Fighters, when it's the enemy then they are terrorists. Actually even if it's the SAME guys, like it happened in Afghanistan.
But it's not even this... most people here have no idea what Hezbollah is, they swallow what the media throw at them, but in fact have never been in the Middle East and often never out of the US altogether...
Hezobollah is a political party, a grassroot social development organization, a media and broadcasting organization AND also has a security branch.
The security branch is, in my opinion, guilty of what could be called terrorism. But this doesn't mean everything called Hezbollah is a terror organization. In this exact moment while we type Hezbollah is handing out food, water, clothes and a roof to those lebanese people who lost their houses during the war. They are organizing school for those children who have been displaced. Are these people terrorists because they are part of Hezobollah? And I can remember at least 4 diplomats from Lebanon, including one operating in the US who was part of the Hezbollah political party... how come this "dangerous terrorist" was sipping Martini with people from Georgetown University and the State Department?
Read the story of Lebanon and Hezbollah and you would understand why it's so complex. American media often like everything in black and white, too bad reality NEVER is so easy.
In the '80s most people in Hezbollah security forces were not even muslims, and they still have quite a lot of maronites, and laic people. One of the balles Hezbollah has been fighting for a decade now was actually about the women's rights inside Lebanon.
So many people here speak about things they do not know, banalizing situations so intricated it's hard even for diplomats and scholars specialized in ME affairs to understand and handle.
With all due respect, Harvey (I say this because I enjoy reading your posts and very often find myself agreeing with you), virtually all of the rocket attacks on Israel in the last few years came from Hamas, i.e. mostly from the Gaza strip. Their military wing I don't hesitate labeling terrorists -- suicide bombers targeting civilians are the scum of the earth. Hizbullah started shelling Israel when they started bombing Lebabon. The only attacks by Hezbollah I remember were in the disputed Shebaa farms (where the kidnapping allegedly took place -- keep in mind that in the beginning many reports said the soldiers were in fact in Lebanon), and arround the border (e.g. tit-for-tat shootings, small arms and mortar fire at IDF posts, etc.) As I said, Hezbollah has not been been firing rockets at N. Israel in the last 5-6 years (I'm too lazy to go search for earlier attacks).
And I don't remember Israel and Lebanon signing any treaty. Lebanon and Israel are still officially at war. After Hezbollah kicked Israel out of Southern Lebanon, they (H.) took over that region, arrested and gave to Lebanon's government all collaborators who didn't manage (or were not allowed -- so much for Israel's gratitude) to escape to Israel, and have been ruling there happily ever after.
I might be wrong, but as far as I remember Hezbollah was attacking the Shebaa farms which they (and a lot of other people) consider to be part of Lebanon.
I.e from Hezbollahs point of view the settlers in that area are a part of an occuping military force.
Note that I am NOT saying that I agree with Hezbollah. I am merely saying that the reason why Hezbollah has a lot of supporters is because they do have "real" causes; they are not just a bunch of religious lunatics.
The good news is that this also means that it is definitly possible to TALK to Hezbollah. The only way to solve this conflict will be use diplomacy. Israel (and at least indirectly the US) will have to sit down and negotiate with Hezbollah the same way the British government eventually agreed to talk to the IRA (Sinn Fein).
We have got far too much now of people who can only think in two ways on relations with others: enemy and all out war, or not enemy.
When both sides have that limited view, you get war, because neither side has alternatives. This is why in the cold war, when an otherwise inevitable world war with the Soviets had to be avoided because the cost of nuclear war was too high, it was very difficult, and the chances of nuclear war were close in a very dangerous way, and the pressures stifled came out in other directions from proxy wars from Viet Nam to Afghanistan, to our nations' paranoia and blind hate for an enemy they could only verbally attack. The world was changed as both superpowers put puppets into power across the world, as America made Japan into an economic success through policy to have an alternative to China, as third world nations were used as pawns.
We need leaders who can do more, who can look at the situations and find ways to have peace with others who may not agree with us on many things, who can get peace from conflict, rather than conflict from diversity.
We need to listen to enemies. Sometimes, if not usually, they have a point, too. Sometimes we're in the wrong, and conflict in defending that is immoral. At worst, we hear things we say are not right and choose war anyway.
This is a fine line in this case, and we absolutely must protect our right to air and to hear the side of Hezbollah, while placing a line at doing business with them. If there's no money changing hands, the right to air the views is required for our freedom.
Contrast this to the famous saying, 'I do not agree with what you say, but I will fight for your right to say it'.
Our real problem lies not with the enemy's voice being heard, but with the issues in our own media, such as the few companies who now own the vast majority of all media, and the corporatism causing censorship.
Perhaps in WWII the patriotic duty was to volunteer to fight Hitler. Today, the patriotic duty is to exercise your right to free speech in a way which challenges the excessive restrictions. It's a hero who goes to jail for broadcasting Hezbollah views to protect free speech, especially if he disagrees with the views - just as the ACLU defended the right of the Nazis to march, despite disagreeing with their views and at great cost to their membership.
When both sides have that limited view, you get war, because neither side has alternatives. This is why in the cold war, when an otherwise inevitable world war with the Soviets had to be avoided because the cost of nuclear war was too high, it was very difficult, and the chances of nuclear war were close in a very dangerous way, and the pressures stifled came out in other directions from proxy wars from Viet Nam to Afghanistan, to our nations' paranoia and blind hate for an enemy they could only verbally attack. The world was changed as both superpowers put puppets into power across the world, as America made Japan into an economic success through policy to have an alternative to China, as third world nations were used as pawns.
We need leaders who can do more, who can look at the situations and find ways to have peace with others who may not agree with us on many things, who can get peace from conflict, rather than conflict from diversity.
We need to listen to enemies. Sometimes, if not usually, they have a point, too. Sometimes we're in the wrong, and conflict in defending that is immoral. At worst, we hear things we say are not right and choose war anyway.
This is a fine line in this case, and we absolutely must protect our right to air and to hear the side of Hezbollah, while placing a line at doing business with them. If there's no money changing hands, the right to air the views is required for our freedom.
Contrast this to the famous saying, 'I do not agree with what you say, but I will fight for your right to say it'.
Our real problem lies not with the enemy's voice being heard, but with the issues in our own media, such as the few companies who now own the vast majority of all media, and the corporatism causing censorship.
Perhaps in WWII the patriotic duty was to volunteer to fight Hitler. Today, the patriotic duty is to exercise your right to free speech in a way which challenges the excessive restrictions. It's a hero who goes to jail for broadcasting Hezbollah views to protect free speech, especially if he disagrees with the views - just as the ACLU defended the right of the Nazis to march, despite disagreeing with their views and at great cost to their membership.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
"The European Union decided to take the channel off European satellites last year."
If even the European union thinks it is bad then that should be a sign.
"A popular Arabic satellite television channel, which often glorifies terrorism and violence, has been named a Specially Designated Global Terrorist (SDGT) entity by the U.S. Treasury Department. "
That is why he was arrested. It is not about freedom of speach, but doing buisness with a "terrorist" entity.
More wonderful news about Hezbollah tv:
"Al Manar had previously been placed on the State Department?s terrorism exclusion list in December 2004. This restriction barred its employees from traveling to the United States. In that same month, France?s highest administrative court banned a satellite provider from broadcasting the channel in France.
Formed in the early 1980?s and funded by Iran, Hezbollah is responsible for the death of hundreds of innocent civilians; the organization has frequently targeted Americans, Israelis and Jews around the world. "
http://www.adl.org/main_Terrorism/al_manar_sdgt.htm
If even the European union thinks it is bad then that should be a sign.
"A popular Arabic satellite television channel, which often glorifies terrorism and violence, has been named a Specially Designated Global Terrorist (SDGT) entity by the U.S. Treasury Department. "
That is why he was arrested. It is not about freedom of speach, but doing buisness with a "terrorist" entity.
More wonderful news about Hezbollah tv:
"Al Manar had previously been placed on the State Department?s terrorism exclusion list in December 2004. This restriction barred its employees from traveling to the United States. In that same month, France?s highest administrative court banned a satellite provider from broadcasting the channel in France.
Formed in the early 1980?s and funded by Iran, Hezbollah is responsible for the death of hundreds of innocent civilians; the organization has frequently targeted Americans, Israelis and Jews around the world. "
http://www.adl.org/main_Terrorism/al_manar_sdgt.htm
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
I think you need to study history a little more before you go comparing things that are happening today to World War 2. Everything we have done to stop terrorism is a minor inconvienence compared to the effects World War 2 had America.
quote:"We will not change our way of life by your actions! We are Americans and we are FREE! We will hunt you down and do what is necessary but we will not have secret prisons or wiretap our own citizens without warrants or hold foreign nationals without due process.
The second we have another 9-11 type attack on America all the people jumping up and down and complaining about all this will all of a sudden start yelling that the government should have done more to prevent such and such attack. We are in a war with people who think that 50,000 dead in New York city would be a good idea, it might be a good idea to remember that.
That is EXACTLY what michaelpatrick33 was talking about. He didn't say what we've DONE to fight terrorism is minor compared to fighting WWII, he's saying the level of popular hysteria seems comparable. And he's right, just listen to the commentary lately...you'd think the terorrists had destroying the east coast and were rapidly making their way across middle America. The threat they pose has been overblown. Which is not to say they pose no threat, just that the "end of the world" attitude a lot of people seem to display is not really based on reality.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
I guess it comes down to what side of the argument you are on.
If you are anti-Bush then we have done all this (phone taps, prisons, tracking the flow of money etc) for nothing, or very little danger.
And if you are pro-Bush we have done very little to alter our way of life.
If you are predisposed to think of Bush as an evil powergrabber, that is what you see.
And on the other side you see Bush as someone just trying to defend our country.
Captain Obvious FTW! lol
I actually totally agree with you on that. People will believe what they want to hear. See below for proofReally?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5149464.stm
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati...465.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed
And we don't even start to go back in time to the Iran/Contra, Haiti, Liberia and Chile golpe days...
By the way... I think Hezbollah broadcasts should be banned in the US based on the content, not the source. If they do
You need to read up on Shebaa Farms. It is not part of Lebanon, but Syria, and the only reason the claim was ever advanced was to give Hezbollah an excuse to continue existing after Israel withdrew from Lebanon (ie, they claimed they would fight until Israel left Lebanon; Israel did, so they made up a blatant lie). Syria never had any intention of actually allowing Lebanon to annex it (check that out too), but it served their purpose to not refute the claim outright.
There are plenty of direct quotes from UN officials available regarding the outrageous lie and the UN's reaction to it, just use Google and you will be both disgusted and astounded with what you find.
Hezbollah is a known terrorist org. It's is the largest terrorist group in the middle east, with more then 20,000 combat ready members.
Try comparing it with somebody screaming "Bomb!" on an airplane. Free speech or security issue?
You decide.
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