New York Becomes Only State to Offer Free Four-Year College Tuition

[96Firebird]

Wow, I'm a left leaner, but some of you guys are fucking ridiculous.

 

[brandonbull]

good thinking. All of those jobs will be easily replaced by robots sooner than the jobs that require creative and critical thinking (not to shit on trades like that--I think they are awesome--but let's stop deluding ourselves about the nobility of near-obsolete tasks)

No one pities the stagecoach driver.

I would say the tasks typically performed in corporate America are first up to be replaced by robots. Copy-n-paste into spreadsheets or firing off 1000's of emails are obsolete tasks. If you want to lift people up out of poverty, give them knowledge on how to "fish". The road to prosperity is not paved with PhD's or call center jobs.

 

[boomerang]

"You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is the beginning of the end of any nation.
You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

 

[96Firebird]

And yes, people can make education work right now. If they have parents that went to college, and can teach them how to navigate the system. But there are a lot of very smart individuals from families that have never gone to college, and they don't know how to navigate the system, so instead of becoming an engineer, they instead end up as fast food workers, or unemployed, or even worse, in prison, costing tax payers $50k per year possibly for life instead of $20k-$30k per year for four years. Oregon currently spends twice as much on prisons compared to higher education. That's fucked up.

My parents never went to college. My parents didn't know how to "navigate the system", whatever that means. I became an engineer, despite having two parents who collectively made under $60k a year.

I take solace in knowing I am a better person for it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

All we need is four or five years to get my son graduated and my wife retire from her professorship and we can move to another state unless we bail sooner and she gets a job elsewhere like a lot of the best will. Maybe go back to NH and she can teach at Dartmouth part time.

 

[96Firebird]

Same here, if my brother-in-law and sister move with my new nephew, my parents will probably follow since they are both on the verge of retiring. Family is the only thing keeping me here, so if they move I'll get out as well.

I hope nobody actually wonders why people are leaving the state.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I would say the tasks typically performed in corporate America are first up to be replaced by robots. Copy-n-paste into spreadsheets or firing off 1000's of emails are obsolete tasks. If you want to lift people up out of poverty, give them knowledge on how to "fish". The road to prosperity is not paved with PhD's or call center jobs.

Not to mention undergrad work in general. Oh, you have a Bachelor's in biology? You want to do research? Sorry, we had an opening for a Petri dish preparer at $8/hr, but robots replaced you. Get a Master's and we'll see if our RoboPipette hasn't replaced your $14/hr job in a couple of years.

The real problem is that the majority of humans on this planet are probably not intellectually capable of adapting to the ridiculous technology explosion we've enjoyed in just a few hundred years. We don't evolve that fast; only a minority is really cut out for truly intellectual pursuits, so either we change the definition of the PhD into "Extened post-bacc baby care" and basically just extend the welfare state further, or our less-capable need to get of of the gene pool quickly.

 

[fskimospy]

Wow, I'm a left leaner, but some of you guys are fucking ridiculous.

So help us understand, what is ridiculous here?

 

[mect]

My parents never went to college. My parents didn't know how to "navigate the system", whatever that means. I became an engineer, despite having two parents who collectively made under $60k a year.

I take solace in knowing I am a better person for it.

You are an exception (which is great, I don't mean to take away anything from what you did, it is exceptional). The problem is, not everyone is exceptional, but there are individuals that aren't exceptional that can still make significant contributions to society with some support. Yes, there are also people that make it through under the current system. There are many more that get left behind. Which do you think is more valuable to society, you, or the person that didn't make it through because they weren't able to find the resources to navigate that path and instead is stuck at a minimum wage job supplementing their income through social programs for the remainder of their lives. Research shows we will pay for these individuals one way or the other (unless we become comfortable with letting these people and their children just starve in the street). We can either pay for them in a way that we train them to become more productive (and no, this won't be 100% efficient, there are some that still won't make it), or we can pay for their support for the rest of their lives.

 

[fskimospy]

Same here, if my brother-in-law and sister move with my new nephew, my parents will probably follow since they are both on the verge of retiring. Family is the only thing keeping me here, so if they move I'll get out as well.

I hope nobody actually wonders why people are leaving the state.

I sincerely doubt it has much to do with free college tuition. It's mostly that upstate is totally bereft of decent economic opportunities.

Downstate New York has seen a dramatic population increase in recent years despite the fact that the overall tax burden here is higher than upstate. Pretty simple, the NYC area is a money machine and the rest of the state isn't.

 

[mect]

Just to be clear, I don't necessarily support free higher education, this is one area I actually agreed with Clinton over Sanders, I'd prefer affordable education. But free education is far superior to education that is expensive enough to make cost a significant barrier to access. If we can at least control costs so that someone working full time over the summer makes enough to afford attendance, I'd be fine with that, but we need to eliminate this situation where students need to accumulate significant debt to get an education because for many students, even highly gifted ones, this turns them away. We need to make sure education is easily affordable.

 

[fskimospy]

My parents never went to college. My parents didn't know how to "navigate the system", whatever that means. I became an engineer, despite having two parents who collectively made under $60k a year.

I take solace in knowing I am a better person for it.

$60,000 a year between your parents means you grew up in a household that made about 20% more than the median US household income (in 2010). The fact that you grew up in around the 60th percentile for income and successfully went to college is not some sort of incredible feat, it's pretty normal.

I have no doubt that you had to work hard to complete your degree and you should be proud of it, but saying that you were able to overcome the burden of a substantially above average family income is not exactly something you can generalize.

 

[BurnItDwn]

I wonder why New Yorkers who opt not to attend college should be forced to pay for this.

I've never needed to invade a foreign country, why should I pay for the military?

My house hasn't caught on fire, why should I pay for the fire department?

I don't live in a prison and don't commit crimes regularly, why should I pay for police and prison system?

Same argument, just as invalid.

 

[pauldun170]

I sincerely doubt it has much to do with free college tuition. It's mostly that upstate is totally bereft of decent economic opportunities.

Downstate New York has seen a dramatic population increase in recent years despite the fact that the overall tax burden here is higher than upstate. Pretty simple, the NYC area is a money machine and the rest of the state isn't.

I grew up a few miles away from farmland and open space.
It's now all luxury homes, golf courses, winneries, home depot\target\costco etc etc etc
For every person that runs off to Florida\Carolinas\Georgia\Nevada complaining about the cost of living, 20 people replace them.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

You are an exception (which is great, I don't mean to take away anything from what you did, it is exceptional). The problem is, not everyone is exceptional, but there are individuals that aren't exceptional that can still make significant contributions to society with some support. Yes, there are also people that make it through under the current system. There are many more that get left behind. Which do you think is more valuable to society, you, or the person that didn't make it through because they weren't able to find the resources to navigate that path and instead is stuck at a minimum wage job supplementing their income through social programs for the remainder of their lives. Research shows we will pay for these individuals one way or the other (unless we become comfortable with letting these people and their children just starve in the street). We can either pay for them in a way that we train them to become more productive (and no, this won't be 100% efficient, there are some that still won't make it), or we can pay for their support for the rest of their lives.

This assumes that those people are able to do anything with a Bachelor's. The bottom quartile of college graduates makes the same amount as the average high school grad. One in four degrees issued is effectively a waste, and not a solution to fix the kind of person that lives in poverty generation after generation.

 

[fskimospy]

I grew up a few miles away from farmland and open space.
It's now all luxury homes, golf courses, winneries, home depot\target\costco etc etc etc
For every person that runs off to Florida\Carolinas\Georgia\Nevada complaining about the cost of living, 20 people replace them.

Also, this sort of movement just makes economic sense for a lot of people. You can make a lot of money in NYC, build up your net worth, and then move/retire to a cheap area and live like a king.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

So help us understand, what is ridiculous here?

This is set up to crush small colleges and create a monopoly. 10 or 15% reduction in enrolment will do most in. There is a crappy financial aid assist with requires both matching funds from the college AND locking in tuition for the entire duration. Since there's no power to tax there's no equivalent mechanism besides tuition.

My son will be starting in an excellent science honors program and yeah we're kicking in and it's not easy, but worth it. If the institution stays open long enough he'll have a big advantage over the state colleges. If not I suppose there's out of state colleges.

 

[mect]

This assumes that those people are able to do anything with a Bachelor's. The bottom quartile of college graduates makes the same amount as the average high school grad. One in four degrees issued is effectively a waste, and not a solution to fix the kind of person that lives in poverty generation after generation.

This still doesn't equate to the degree being a waste. Even if a person doesn't make any more with a bachelors degree, they are still of greater benefit to the society because they are overall a more educated citizen. They are more informed voters, they are better communicators, and they are more socially aware of the wider world compared to those that don't attain degrees. The benefit of a college degree is not limited purely to a higher salary.

 

[fskimospy]

This is set up to crush small colleges and create a monopoly. 10 or 15% reduction in enrolment will do most in. There is a crappy financial aid assist with requires both matching funds from the college AND locking in tuition for the entire duration. Since there's no power to tax there's no equivalent mechanism besides tuition.

My son will be starting in an excellent science honors program and yeah we're kicking in and it's not easy, but worth it. If the institution stays open long enough he'll have a big advantage over the state colleges. If not I suppose there's out of state colleges.

Free state college tuition is not designed to crush small colleges and create a monopoly, it's designed to make college accessible and affordable. I mean most other developed nations have free or low cost public universities. Do you think those were created in an effort to destroy small schools or do you think they were created because they are a good idea?

Similarly I do not believe that free, universal K-12 education is designed to destroy small private K-12 schools.

 

[Mandres]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Who qualifies for the free tuition - Is it anyone who gets accepted to a NY university? Will NY universities keep admission standards high, or try to start admitting everyone to take advantage of this huge new demand? Do online programs from NY universities qualify? If so, I'm sure there will be an absolute explosion in those programs.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

This still doesn't equate to the degree being a waste. Even if a person doesn't make any more with a bachelors degree, they are still of greater benefit to the society because they are overall a more educated citizen. They are more informed voters, they are better communicators, and they are more socially aware of the wider world compared to those that don't attain degrees. The benefit of a college degree is not limited purely to a higher salary.

That's debatable. A person can easily breeze through a 4-year degree at a low/mid-tier state college with a 2.0 and learn almost nothing, and even if they did learn something, there's an obvious opportunity cost at play. Why does it take four years and tens of thousands of dollars to make some a better communicator or more informed voter? Go join Toastmasters or read the NYT or something.

 

[Brainonska511]

My state has (or at least had) a program that paid tuition for a 4 year degree., but you did have to maintain a minimum GPA (the requirement was pretty low). I think it should be limited to only STEM degrees.

I'm not sure if my state had income restrictions, but if a program like this is going to be offered I do not agree with any income restrictions.

This obsession with STEM is insane. STEM degrees aren't the be all end all. Society would be a pretty boring place if we favored only STEM. Plus, there are many job functions that greatly benefit from non-STEM subjects. If anything, we should be striving for rigorous, well-rounded education that allow people to specialize in the subjects they want to specialize in.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Free state college tuition is not designed to crush small colleges and create a monopoly, it's designed to make college accessible and affordable. I mean most other developed nations have free or low cost public universities. Do you think those were created in an effort to destroy small schools or do you think they were created because they are a good idea?

Similarly I do not believe that free, universal K-12 education is designed to destroy small private K-12 schools.

That will likely be the effect and having been married to a prof who has been in small colleges because she and do a better job even though she earns far less than at a large uni. We're first hand witnesses to how things are, not how they are sold by the pols. No matter really. She'll probably last until retirement but my son will be entering a superb honors science program. Hopefully the college lasts but the chances are not great.

 

[fskimospy]

That will likely be the effect and having been married to a prof who has been in small colleges because she and do a better job even though she earns far less than at a large uni. We're first hand witnesses to how things are, not how they are sold by the pols. No matter really. She'll probably last until retirement but my son will be entering a superb honors science program. Hopefully the college lasts but the chances are not great.

I understand the issue with your wife and that sucks, but as a concept do you view free public college as a bad thing?

 

[UglyCasanova]

My state has (or at least had) a program that paid tuition for a 4 year degree., but you did have to maintain a minimum GPA (the requirement was pretty low). I think it should be limited to only STEM degrees.

I'm not sure if my state had income restrictions, but if a program like this is going to be offered I do not agree with any income restrictions.

TOPS?