New Topic.. Can we Forgive and Forget? Old...Kimmel preempted

[HomerJS]

So you hate Saudi Arabians because of its leader? 🤔

That's like people who hate America because of Trump and won't forgive even when another Biden comes to town.

The attack from the highjackers was nearly 25 years ago. We cannot blame the country for that but OBL and the perpetrators.

Forgive the country while remembering what you please.

And don't forget the Alamo! Damn Mexico!

Pearl Harbor is still a day that lives in infamy. But we forgave Japan.

Big difference the people of SA have no say in who is their leader.

Other countries should despise Americans because they were stupid/selfish enough to elect this racist POS.

 

[Heartbreaker]

It was a war declared on us by a genocidal, murderous regime, one that had made it emphatically clear that it was willing to have all those same civilians die rather than surrender.

Japan could have surrendered at any point as they had known the war was lost for a very long time at that point. They chose not to. Even better, they could have not engaged in a genocidal war of conquest to begin with.

Should we have instead allowed this murderous, genocidal, expansionist regime continue and rebuild itself so it could try again? If so, no thanks. If not, what was your better solution?

This is a false dichotomy. The choices aren't commit mass atrocities against civilians, or let them rebuild.

You can attack mainly military/infrastructure targets, you don't need to drop napalm and nukes on civilians.

The Atomic Bombings of Japan Were Based on Lies

The persistence of discredited arguments justifying the bombings — and their integration into the culture of American exceptionalism — is, by now, laughable. Their existence underscores the need to reevaluate the key arguments that demonstrate the fundamentally needless nature of employing atomic weapons against Japan.

 

[Paratus]

This is a false dichotomy. The choices aren't commit mass atrocities against civilians, or let them rebuild.

You can attack mainly military/infrastructure targets, you don't need to drop napalm and nukes on civilians.

The Atomic Bombings of Japan Were Based on Lies

Ah you wanted to bomb them back to the stone age and then interdict any supplies going to the islands so they couldn’t rebuild their military infrastructure.

How many civilians starving to death over how many years in that scenario would have been acceptable to you?

 

[Pens1566]

This is a false dichotomy. The choices aren't commit mass atrocities against civilians, or let them rebuild.

You can attack mainly military/infrastructure targets, you don't need to drop napalm and nukes on civilians.

The Atomic Bombings of Japan Were Based on Lies

Might be possible now, but the tech of the time ('45) didn't exactly allow for destroying the enemy's war fighting capability without collateral civilian damage. Especially when military targets are present in population centers.

 

[Fenixgoon]

This is a false dichotomy. The choices aren't commit mass atrocities against civilians, or let them rebuild.

You can attack mainly military/infrastructure targets, you don't need to drop napalm and nukes on civilians.

The Atomic Bombings of Japan Were Based on Lies

Yup, I remember my history teacher mentioning this part in Particular

Instead, historical evidence more strongly indicates America’s desire to circumvent the need for negotiations with the Soviet Union over the future of East Asia.

Show Russia we have working bombs so they won't challenge the US in the post-war

 

[fskimospy]

This is a false dichotomy. The choices aren't commit mass atrocities against civilians, or let them rebuild.

You can attack mainly military/infrastructure targets, you don't need to drop napalm and nukes on civilians.

The Atomic Bombings of Japan Were Based on Lies

1) Japanese military production often took place in smaller individual shops located in population centers. Not possible to bomb them in a way that wouldn't cause large civilian casualties.

2) How long do you do this for? Indefinitely? The Japanese government was never going to surrender voluntarily. So how do you end the war?

 

[Brainonska511]

1) Japanese military production often took place in smaller individual shops located in population centers. Not possible to bomb them in a way that wouldn't cause large civilian casualties.

2) How long do you do this for? Indefinitely? The Japanese government was never going to surrender voluntarily. So how do you end the war?

Precision bombing as we know it today was also basically non-existent and not very accurate. The USAAF had hard times even flattening larger factories in Japan.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Precision bombing as we know it today was also basically non-existent and not very accurate. The USAAF had hard times even flattening larger factories in Japan.

You guys are really working hard to justify napalming civilians. Are you trying a position in ICE?

But I get it. Atrocities are OK, when it's your side doing them.

 

[Brainonska511]

You guys are really working hard to justify napalming civilians. Are you trying a position in ICE?

But I get it. Atrocities are OK, when it's your side doing them.

You're working really hard to ignore the contemporary evidence and what US planners knew or did not know about the makeup of Japanese wartime industry and US capabilities. Hence why I suggest you pick up Richard Frank's book instead of relying on historical accounts that analyze things after the fact and rely too heavily on people's faulty memories that make them look better than they really were.

 

[HomerJS]

The kIngdom that killed Khashogii, dismembered him, and put his remains in a suitcase is staging a COMEDY festival:

Today’s generation of comedians prefer to use their hard-won liberties not as a weapon against the powerful, but as a license to operate free of any ethical obligations whatsoever. For these comedians, “freedom of speech” means the freedom to say anything you want, including to be cruel to racial minorities, women, trans people and immigrants; to associate with conspiracy theoristsand lend their platforms to politicians set on undermining democracy.

US comedians defend decision to play in Saudi Arabia: ‘They’re paying me enough to look the other way’

US comedians defend decision to play in Saudi Arabia: ‘They’re paying me enough to look the other way’

If these comedians go there and tell the truth about Saudi Arabia I will respect their decision.

But I need to remind people I remember when entertainers and athletes took firm stances like refusing to play South Africa. Bob Marley did play South Africa but spoke up for the rebel soldiers.

Let's see these comedians sets. If they omit talking about the government the Royal Family ir anything they would talk about here I will lose respect for all of them.

Some are claiming they haven't been given restrictions. Some have said there are restrictions. Who do we believe? Maybe the bigger stars will be given their restrictions once they arrive and will have to redact parts of their sets.

Jessica Kirson, one of three women on the festival’s lineup, once said of the plight of female comedians in the Middle East: “They’re not allowed to talk about the government or the royal family. Or they’re not allowed to curse or talk about sex. We are so fucking privileged here.”

Riyadh headliners likely had to agree to those same proscriptions. Although Jefferies and Davidson said in separate conversations that they had not received any content guidelines from the festival’s organizers, the comedian Atsuko Okatsuka recently posted a screenshot of the proposed contract she received (and turned down) from the festival’s organizers. The section she shared, titled “Content Restrictions”, forbade material that denigrates “The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, including its leadership, public figures, culture, or people”, as well as the country’s legal system.

 

[outriding]

If these comedians go there and tell the truth about Saudi Arabia I will respect their decision.

But I need to remind people I remember when entertainers and athletes took firm stances like refusing to play South Africa. Bob Marley did play South Africa but spoke up for the rebel soldiers.

Let's see these comedians sets. If they omit talking about the government the Royal Family ir anything they would talk about here I will lose respect for all of them.

Some are claiming they haven't been given restrictions. Some have said there are restrictions. Who do we believe? Maybe the bigger stars will be given their restrictions once they arrive and will have to redact parts of their sets.

Thinking about this.. maybe have a skit that talks about chopping up people and determining which suitcase would work best.

did not name any names..

 

[fskimospy]

You guys are really working hard to justify napalming civilians. Are you trying a position in ICE?

But I get it. Atrocities are OK, when it's your side doing them.

You are working really hard to avoid answering a simple question:

What would you have done instead to end the war? Be as specific as possible.

 

[Heartbreaker]

You are working really hard to avoid answering a simple question:

What would you have done instead to end the war? Be as specific as possible.

How would I end a war that was already ending, with a beaten Japan ready surrender?

As the link I posted indicated, Japan's military capability was largely destroyed, and they were already on brink of collapse and looking for surrender terms. There was ZERO need to drop two nuclear bombs on civilians.

The Japanese navy, as an example, had for the most part been sunk by the spring of 1945, allowing for near-total Allied control of the seas around Japan. Moreover, the Japanese air force had been so thoroughly obliterated that American bombers attacked with near impunity. The routine firebombing raids over Tokyo, including the devastating attacks on March 9 and 10, 1945, that claimed 100,000 lives, exemplify this. During the period between March 9 and June 15, 1945, out of around 7,000 bombing missions, only 135 American planes were lost, underscoring the extent of American air supremacy over Japan.

Alperovitz further highlights that the Japanese had initiated peace envoy missions as early as September 1944, reaching out to figures like Chinese Nationalist leader Chiang Kai-shek by December 1944 and engaging with the USSR in April 1945. That the Japanese were interested in negotiating a peace was well known. Moreover, the Americans knew that there was a potential for a surrender without necessitating an invasion as early as April 1945, provided there was clarity in the surrender terms.

Americas own generals were against it because it was unnecessary:

Key Reason Why America's Top Military Leaders Opposed The Atomic Bomb

Drop It. In August of 1945, the United States dropped atomic bombs on the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The attacks killed over 100,000 people laid waste to the cities and motivated Imperial Japan towards a surrender. The bombings remain controversial to this day, but many are unaware that seve

worldwarwings.com

“The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.”

– General Dwight D. Eisenhower

“It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.”

– Admiral William Leahy

 

[fskimospy]

How would I end a war that was already ending, with a beaten Japan ready surrender?

As the link I posted indicated, Japan's military capability was largely destroyed, and they were already on brink of collapse and looking for surrender terms. There was ZERO need to drop two nuclear bombs on civilians.



Americas own generals were against it because it was unnecessary:

Key Reason Why America's Top Military Leaders Opposed The Atomic Bomb

Drop It. In August of 1945, the United States dropped atomic bombs on the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The attacks killed over 100,000 people laid waste to the cities and motivated Imperial Japan towards a surrender. The bombings remain controversial to this day, but many are unaware that seve

worldwarwings.com

Japan was ready to surrender but ONLY if their governance structure remained untouched. Meaning they could rebuild, exactly as I said.

Also, if they were so ready to surrender why did it take two? Doesn’t that completely undermine the argument? Also, after the second bomb there was an attempted coup to continue the war. Can you explain that?

Is your idea that had we just waited a month or two they would have surrendered? That seems absurd on its face.

 

[Brainonska511]

How would I end a war that was already ending, with a beaten Japan ready surrender?

As the link I posted indicated, Japan's military capability was largely destroyed, and they were already on brink of collapse and looking for surrender terms. There was ZERO need to drop two nuclear bombs on civilians.



Americas own generals were against it because it was unnecessary:

Key Reason Why America's Top Military Leaders Opposed The Atomic Bomb

Drop It. In August of 1945, the United States dropped atomic bombs on the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The attacks killed over 100,000 people laid waste to the cities and motivated Imperial Japan towards a surrender. The bombings remain controversial to this day, but many are unaware that seve

worldwarwings.com

1) Eisenhower, as the supreme commander in Europe is a poor source for determining the stance of Japan. He wasn't really privy to those intellence reports from a separate theater under a different command structure.

2) Japan wasn't ready to surrender at all, and contemporary evidence supports that. At most, they had floated some unofficial trial balloons with the USSR that went nowhere and had no official or strong backing from the people in charge. And they were preparing for a huge fight in Kyushu to bloody the Americans and try to use that as leverage for a peace where they could keep all their illegitimate holdings in Korea and China

3) People's after the fact recollections are not useful for assessing what people knew at the time decisions were made to use the atom bomb. Hiroshima was also a major army group headquarters and was in fact the headquarters for the command covering Kyushu island, the initial target for the invasion of Japan under Operation Downfall.

 

[Heartbreaker]

1) Eisenhower, as the supreme commander in Europe is a poor source for determining the stance of Japan. He wasn't really privy to those intellence reports from a separate theater under a different command structure.

2) Japan wasn't ready to surrender at all, and contemporary evidence supports that. At most, they had floated some unofficial trial balloons with the USSR that went nowhere and had no official or strong backing from the people in charge. And they were preparing for a huge fight in Kyushu to bloody the Americans and try to use that as leverage for a peace where they could keep all their illegitimate holdings in Korea and China

3) People's after the fact recollections are not useful for assessing what people knew at the time decisions were made to use the atom bomb. Hiroshima was also a major army group headquarters and was in fact the headquarters for the command covering Kyushu island, the initial target for the invasion of Japan under Operation Downfall.

Douglas MacArthur, the Top General in the Pacific theater was also against using Atomic weapons, and felt the demand for unconditional surrender was what dragged the war on. Are you going to claim he was out of the loop as well?

I'm not going to convince people that grew up being told a lily white story of American Exceptionalism, that insists on the necessity of nuking a beaten country.

The same kind of one sided propaganda, Trump and allies want to return to.

Negotiations bad, Nuking civilians good. ... America, Fuck yeah! Comin' again to save the motherfuckin' day, yeah!

 

[Brainonska511]

Douglas MacArthur, the Top General in the Pacific theater was also against using Atomic weapons, and felt the demand for unconditional surrender was what dragged the war on. Are you going to claim he was out of the loop as well?

I'm not going to convince people that grew up being told a lily white story of American Exceptionalism, that insists on the necessity of nuking a beaten country.

The same kind of one sided propaganda, Trump and allies want to return to.

Negotiations bad, Nuking civilians good. ... America, Fuck yeah! Comin' again to save the motherfuckin' day, yeah!

I'm not talking about propaganda. I'm talking from the stance that I've actually read stuff by historians who looked at the contemporary evidence and what Japan was or wasn't willing to do (they weren't anywhere close to surrendering, even after the massive firebombing ). It's important to not rely on post-war dick measuring contests between services or perspectives that whitewashed things because of anti-nuclear sentiment decades later or recolor things completely by information learned only after the fact.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Some are claiming they haven't been given restrictions. Some have said there are restrictions. Who do we believe?

U.S. comic Tim Dillon says Saudi Arabia fired him from comedy festival over jokes about slavery

American stand-up comedian Tim Dillon says he's been dropped from the Riyadh Comedy Festival bill after jokes about the country's alleged use of forced labor.

www.cbsnews.com

He lost a $375,000 paycheck. I think that was done on purpose to bring other comedians in line. No one's gonna throw away their millions (especially people like Bill Burr). I think their plan is to go there, make easy money, come back and then joke the crap out about their time there. It could be enough to make us forgive them. But it's all speculation on my part at this point.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I'm not talking about propaganda. I'm talking from the stance that I've actually read stuff by historians who looked at the contemporary evidence and what Japan was or wasn't willing to do (they weren't anywhere close to surrendering, even after the massive firebombing ). It's important to not rely on post-war dick measuring contests between services or perspectives that whitewashed things because of anti-nuclear sentiment decades later or recolor things completely by information learned only after the fact.

I can see that you've made up your mind, and it's the justifications you were taught in school as a child.

Unsurprisingly the Japanese see it differently:

Were the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombings necessary?

Was it necessary to drop the bombs on civilian population centers to demonstrate the power of the weapons?

www.japantimes.co.jp

 

[Brainonska511]

I can see that you've made up your mind, and it's the justifications you were taught in school as a child.

Unsurprisingly the Japanese see it differently:

Were the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombings necessary?

Was it necessary to drop the bombs on civilian population centers to demonstrate the power of the weapons?

www.japantimes.co.jp

I see you've made up your mind, but you should really read this because contemporary perspectives say otherwise. It's not about "views of a child". It's literally what people thought and knew at the time, both in Japan and in the US government and military.

Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire: Frank, Richard B.: 9780141001463: Amazon.com: Books

Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire [Frank, Richard B.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire

www.amazon.com

 

[igor_kavinski]

The Japanese brought the calamity of the bombs upon themselves with their genocidal warcrimes. It was pure Karma. Who did it or how it happened isn't the point. The point is, you do evil, sooner or later, you pay.

 

[Fenixgoon]

The Japanese brought the calamity of the bombs upon themselves with their genocidal warcrimes. It was pure Karma. Who did it or how it happened isn't the point. The point is, you do evil, sooner or later, you pay.

So we're in for some serious karma given all the horrible things the US has done over the last 75+ years on the international stage?

 

[igor_kavinski]

So we're in for some serious karma given all the horrible things the US has done over the last 75+ years on the international stage?

Isn't it already happening with trump and maga shit? And the dems are not much better. The US is between a rock and a hard place.

 

[nakedfrog]

If these comedians go there and tell the truth about Saudi Arabia I will respect their decision.

But I need to remind people I remember when entertainers and athletes took firm stances like refusing to play South Africa. Bob Marley did play South Africa but spoke up for the rebel soldiers.

Let's see these comedians sets. If they omit talking about the government the Royal Family ir anything they would talk about here I will lose respect for all of them.

Some are claiming they haven't been given restrictions. Some have said there are restrictions. Who do we believe? Maybe the bigger stars will be given their restrictions once they arrive and will have to redact parts of their sets.

I guess Dave Chappelle decided to go the other direction.

“Right now in America, they say that if you talk about Charlie Kirk, that you’ll get canceled,” the comedian Dave Chappelle quipped on Saturday at the Riyadh Comedy Festival, the first event of its kind in Saudi Arabia. “I don’t know if that’s true, but I’m gonna find out.”
A headline act, Mr. Chappelle was met with whoops, cheers and applause as he told an audience of 6,000, “It’s easier to talk here than it is in America.”
...
Like other comedians at the event who said they felt muzzled by American political correctness, Mr. Chappelle reveled in making uncouth jokes in Saudi Arabia. Yet he overlooked an eight-year crackdown that has led to many of the country’s writers, businesspeople, activists, clerics and social media influencers being arrested.

https://archive.is/EjvYZ

 

[nakedfrog]

Isn't it already happening with trump and maga shit? And the dems are not much better. The US is between a rock and a hard place.

Yes, the Dems ARE much better. Absolutely not perfect, but that's a dumb fucking thing to say.