halik
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2000
- 25,696
- 1
- 81
Nonsense. That's false for any car, but especially false for the Insight.
The Insight isn't a regular car. Using the A/C commands a significant MPG impact. It can be as much as 25MPG under some conditions, probably more. I wouldn't have been able to get anywhere near the fuel economy I did if I had been using the air.
Having the windows rolled down is negligible. I've never been able to detect a difference, and I've looked.
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Why does it defeat the purpose? If I don't want to use A/C, that's my choice. Do you drive around with the A/C on all the time just because you can? lol
There are Insights that didn't come with A/C, you know. I freely admit that it's nice when I do need to use it, and I do use it - just not out on the open highway - at least, I haven't run into a situation yet where I've felt I've needed to. Then again, I don't use it when I leave work and my car is 110 degrees either - whats the point? It's not like it's going to make that much of a difference on my 7 minute drive home. Certainly not worth the ~10MPG hit. I will use it when we're down in Albuquerque shopping and it's 100 degrees outside, 120 in the car and we're already hot from being outside. But that's about it.
Most of both legs of this trip were pleasant, as it's monsoon season down here so we hit thunderstorms and a few light showers, especially through the mountains. Why would I use the AC unless I felt it was necessary? Don't be ridiculous.
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That's bullshit. For any car. Driving with the windows down doesn't command a 20% decrease in fuel economy "or more". That's laughable. Don't know where they came up with that, but this is obvious unless you've never driven a car before.
When I'm cruising at 120MPG and I turn the A/C on, the instantaneous fuel consumption display will drop to 90-100MPG at best, just to maintain speed.
Rolling the windows up and down does not change my speed or the reading of the fuel consumption display.
Edit: That study tested two cars in a wind tunnel. Hardly representative of the fleet at large, and absolutely not representative of my car or any car that I've driven.
I guess when we drove to Colorado last summer in my fiancee's Civic, I could have actually gotten 45MPG instead of 38MPG if all four windows had been up? Oh wait, 38MPG is normal for a Civic. Haha.
There probably is a MPG hit by having the windows down, but it's not detectable in the Insight, which is hyper sensitive to environmental conditions. If it commanded a 20% decrease, or even a 10% or 5% decrease in fuel economy, I would be able to tell just by simply rolling down the windows and feeling how the car behaves, just like I can tell the difference in the way the car behaves when I turn the A/C on - which does command a minimum 10% decrease in fuel economy.
Edit2: Part of it also might be speeds. I'm a little skeptical that the difference is noticeable at a mere 55MPH. I would be more inclined to believe that there may be a difference at 65 and especially 75MPH+, but I don't drive that fast in the Insight when I'm caring about fuel economy so it's moot anyway.
I have never been able to detect a difference though, and I've always been a 'windows down' person in all of my cars. Driving at 65MPH in my truck from Portland, OR to Grants Pass, OR several times always netted me 13MPG - at night with the windows up, or in the day with the windows down.. didn't matter.
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halik
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2000
- 25,696
- 1
- 81
That's bullshit. For any car. Driving with the windows down doesn't command a 20% decrease in fuel economy "or more". That's laughable. Don't know where they came up with that, but this is obvious unless you've never driven a car before.
When I'm cruising at 120MPG and I turn the A/C on, the instantaneous fuel consumption display will drop to 90-100MPG at best, just to maintain speed.
Rolling the windows up and down does not change my speed or the reading of the fuel consumption display.
Edit: That study tested two cars in a wind tunnel. Hardly representative of the fleet at large, and absolutely not representative of my car or any car that I've driven.
I guess when we drove to Colorado last summer in my fiancee's Civic, I could have actually gotten 45MPG instead of 38MPG if all four windows had been up? Oh wait, 38MPG is normal for a Civic. Haha.
There probably is a MPG hit by having the windows down, but it's not detectable in the Insight, which is hyper sensitive to environmental conditions. If it commanded a 20% decrease, or even a 10% or 5% decrease in fuel economy, I would be able to tell just by simply rolling down the windows and feeling how the car behaves, just like I can tell the difference in the way the car behaves when I turn the A/C on - which does command a minimum 10% decrease in fuel economy.
Edit2: Part of it also might be speeds. I'm a little skeptical that the difference is noticeable at a mere 55MPH. I would be more inclined to believe that there may be a difference at 65 and especially 75MPH+, but I don't drive that fast in the Insight when I'm caring about fuel economy so it's moot anyway.
I have never been able to detect a difference though, and I've always been a 'windows down' person in all of my cars. Driving at 65MPH in my truck from Portland, OR to Grants Pass, OR several times always netted me 13MPG - at night with the windows up, or in the day with the windows down.. didn't matter.
IIRC mythbusters did the same thing and found the windows down to cause more drag than the loss with AC.
That statistic does seem to be widely reported. It doesn't seem to affect the Insight at 50-60mph, which is where I drive most of the time.
Like I said, I would be able to tell that sort of performance hit instantly. When your engine is only producing an estimated 8-10HP at 120MPG to keep you cruising at 55MPH, every single little thing matters. Even a 2-3mph head wind is noticeable. If you notice that big bowl shape in the center of the trip's elevation profile, I cruised that entire stretch at 55MPH and 120MPG both ways. With the windows down.
Regardless, it's not comparable to a regular car anyway. If a regular car can see a 10% MPG hit by using the AC, then the Insight should be considered 30%+. It really is that profound. I'd probably have been lucky to get 60MPG if I had used the A/C the entire trip.
Like I said, I would be able to tell that sort of performance hit instantly. When your engine is only producing an estimated 8-10HP at 120MPG to keep you cruising at 55MPH, every single little thing matters. Even a 2-3mph head wind is noticeable. If you notice that big bowl shape in the center of the trip's elevation profile, I cruised that entire stretch at 55MPH and 120MPG both ways. With the windows down.
Regardless, it's not comparable to a regular car anyway. If a regular car can see a 10% MPG hit by using the AC, then the Insight should be considered 30%+. It really is that profound. I'd probably have been lucky to get 60MPG if I had used the A/C the entire trip.
skyking
Lifer
- Nov 21, 2001
- 22,786
- 5,941
- 146
I think you need to look at the specific vehicle. A larger displacement engine can only go so low on fuel consumption. Adding another 10 HP in engine load might actually move it into a more efficient spot on the power band.
In Eli's case, he is running on the ragged edge of power used vs available power.
TraumaRN
Diamond Member
- Jun 5, 2005
- 6,893
- 63
- 91
I totally see where Eli is coming with A/C use. I'm similar but maybe not as extreme as Eli, I generally won't touch the A/C unless it's a minimum of 88+ degrees, or very very humid. But there is a HUGE difference in A/C use in Ford's hybrid system and in the Insight.
The A/C in my Fusion Hybrid is an electric A/C meaning it's not connected to the engine at all, it pulls straight from the battery. What this means is for the first 5-10 minutes of city driving it negatively effects my mileage by about 8mpg, then once the cabin is cool, it barely effects my mileage, maybe 1-2 MPG which I can live with. This also means on the highway it literally does NOTHING to affect my mileage since it's not a parasitic loss on anything except the battery and on the freeway that doesn't matter. I've driving to my job multiple times with A/C on or with windows down and literally got the same exact mileage. But thats my car, as other people have posted, the original Insight had *just* enough power to begin with and the A/C really negatively effects this.
For what it's worth this morning, I had my cruise at 65mph on my drive into work, and windows down, 36.7miles @ 47.8mpg. Had approximately 2-3mph headwind.
The A/C in my Fusion Hybrid is an electric A/C meaning it's not connected to the engine at all, it pulls straight from the battery. What this means is for the first 5-10 minutes of city driving it negatively effects my mileage by about 8mpg, then once the cabin is cool, it barely effects my mileage, maybe 1-2 MPG which I can live with. This also means on the highway it literally does NOTHING to affect my mileage since it's not a parasitic loss on anything except the battery and on the freeway that doesn't matter. I've driving to my job multiple times with A/C on or with windows down and literally got the same exact mileage. But thats my car, as other people have posted, the original Insight had *just* enough power to begin with and the A/C really negatively effects this.
For what it's worth this morning, I had my cruise at 65mph on my drive into work, and windows down, 36.7miles @ 47.8mpg. Had approximately 2-3mph headwind.
And we all know mythbusters has such strict scientific practice :sneaky:
I'd wager that having the windows cracked a little bit doesn't impact mileage too much at 55mph. Having all of the windows down all of the way is probably a different story.
Eli - I think it's really cool that you're not compromising much on your quest for high fuel efficiency!
QuantumPion
Diamond Member
- Jun 27, 2005
- 6,010
- 1
- 76
You guys crying about losing 25 MPG with air conditioning on need to retake basic math. Air conditioning compressor uses a fixed amount of power to run. But when you measure it in MPG, the amount seems relative when it actually isn't. Going from 100 MPG to 75 MPG is not the same amount of gas usage as going from 50 MPG to 25 MPG.
As you can see you really get diminishing returns for your dollar past 60 MPG.
As you can see you really get diminishing returns for your dollar past 60 MPG.
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I don't think money is the point. It's principle. Eli is a reasonably hardcore super-miler, and using AC impinges on that effort.
I'm not against getting better mileage but I look at it like I could watch my 60" plasma with the AC on and my huge stereo blasting surround sound or a 15" LCD panel with built in speakers with the windows open in an attempt to get my electrical bill as low as I could.
Sure 90+ mpg is a neat feat, but you are stuck driving around an insight and doing things that make the drive less pleasurable (not using AC).
If I had a choice to get 90 mpg in an insight or <15 mpg in one of my cars, I'll choose my cars any day of the week.
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actually just had one of my cars retuned. Likely now I would be lucky to get 12 mpg out of it
, but I don't have to worry about headwinds, running the A/C, unplugging the negative battery cable etc
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OILFIELDTRASH
Lifer
- May 13, 2009
- 12,333
- 612
- 126
I drive 80 with the AC cranked to the max. Stopping at the gas station sucks with a 26 gallon tank and an average of 17.1mpg. I still don't care enough to slow down or turn off the ac though.
I still don't care enough to slow down or turn off the ac though.
QuantumPion
Diamond Member
- Jun 27, 2005
- 6,010
- 1
- 76
Some people want the loudest stereo, some people want the fastest 1/4 mile, some people want the best looking car, is it so surprising that someone would want the most fuel efficient for no other reason than doing it?
Anubis
No Lifer
I am not entirely sure what you were getting at with your first post? It's more than just about money though. It was a "MPG exercise".
I don't try and get 90MPG all the time. Indeed, it would be almost impossible. I don't hypermile in the city, I drive fast relative to everyone else. Sure, the money savings is great, but you have to understand that the car operates on the edge. Using the A/C or having a strong head wind in a regular car might mean a 5MPG hit. But with the Insight, it can literally mean the difference between 45 and 90MPG.
I tend to look at it another way. If you have a car that can get 90MPG, why would you cripple it by using the A/C unless it was absolutely necessary? Even when I drove my Ford Focus I didn't run the A/C whimsically. Only on the hottest days.
I gain far more pleasure from pulling great fuel economy than I would because the cabin is 70 degrees instead of 90. It's all about the wind; 90 degrees doesn't bother me as long as there is air flow. Shrug.
You guys are going to have to do better. Ragging on me because I don't use my A/C is ridiculous.
I do have limits.. But they only seem to be reached in city driving. Like I said, I've always been a 'windows down' type of person - that's how a road trip is supposed to feel to me. If I wanted or cared to drive 80MPH with the A/C on everywhere, I wouldn't be driving an Insight.
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I'm not against getting better mileage but I look at it like I could watch my 60" plasma with the AC on and my huge stereo blasting surround sound or a 15" LCD panel with built in speakers with the windows open in an attempt to get my electrical bill as low as I could.
Sure 90+ mpg is a neat feat, but you are stuck driving around an insight and doing things that make the drive less pleasurable (not using AC).
If I had a choice to get 90 mpg in an insight or <15 mpg in one of my cars, I'll choose my cars any day of the week.
edit:
actually just had one of my cars retuned. Likely now I would be lucky to get 12 mpg out of it
Your first analogy is fair and I don't really know what to say to that other than touche.
However, to give you more insight into my psyche, I do consciously run a swamp cooler instead of a window A/C unit in our house. Why? Because the swamp cooler does 90% of what an air conditioner would do, but draws 50 watts instead of 800 watts...I don't believe you regarding the 90 vs. 15MPG thing though. If you had a car that was capable of getting 90MPG but only got 15MPG due to accessories like A/C and the way you drive, you're telling me you wouldn't try and push the envelope and see what you could get at least once? Remember, I only do this on road trips.
As far as worrying about headwinds, running the a/c.. I enjoy that. I'm a numbers geek. I watch the weather to see which way the wind is blowing, I analyze the elevation profiles of possible routes, and I drive with the windows down if I can.. That's just who I am. The Insight is the perfect car for me in that regard.
Removing the negative cable has nothing to do with anything. I accidentally left the ignition on for a couple of hours; in a regular car the 12V battery would have been dead and you would have needed a jump. The Insight has two batteries; I drained the hybrid battery, but the 12V was fine. The computer wouldn't let the car start with the IMA motor because they thought the hybrid battery was dead. I pulled the negative cable to reset the computers so the car would start with the IMA motor since the 12V starter was not working(which again, would have left you stranded with a regular car). I knew this would happen, and it was easier than push starting the car. Having redundant systems like this is a good thing, not a bad one.
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Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,829
- 3
- 0
I don't believe that driving with the windows down gets you better gas mileage than running the AC. A huge part of the Insight's good gas mileage is its aerodynamics.
Yep, and obviously having the windows down doesn't affect aerodynamics that much.
How am I supposed to prove it to you? You're just going to have to take my word for it. The A/C compressor cycling on in the Insight is like stepping on the brakes. I can't stress enough how much of an overall power decrease it commands.
I wouldn't expect most of you to understand because driving the Insight for maximum fuel economy is much, much different than driving a regular car. It's nearly impossible to maintain lean burn mode with the compressor on. That's the real key. When your engine is only producing ~10HP and you take five away to run the compressor, that's a huge performance hit.
The proof is in the numbers. I averaged 86MPG over 800 miles with the windows down. It would have been physically impossible to average the same numbers, let alone more, with the A/C on. I know these cars, I've been driving them for nearly 4 years. I know how they behave, I know how to get the best fuel economy out of them and most of all I'm painfully aware of what turning the air conditioner on does. I can guarantee you that if any of you hopped into my car, you would struggle to get 70MPG under most circumstances.
FWIW, my previous record of 84.5MPG in Insight #1 was also with the windows down.. lol. I don't care what a couple of websites say. If having the windows down in the Insight commanded even a 5% performance hit, I would be able to tell just by cruising along in a steady state and rolling the windows down.
When you're driving the Insight on the level that I do, it becomes almost an extension of your soul. I can tell exactly what is going on with my car just from the feel of it, whether I'm accelerating, decelerating.. even if it takes me a mile to gain or lose 1MPH.
Let's look at it another way - If I had chosen to bake myself by keeping the windows up AND not use the A/C, I would not have been able to average over 100MPG on this trip. It just doesn't work that way. I was pushing the envelope wherever I could, often pulling up grades at 45-50MPH at 65-70MPG. That wouldn't be possible with the A/C running.
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Due to the shape of the Insight this isn't true. At highway speeds of 60 - 75mph you can lower the windows and see no noticeable drop in mpg performance. I know because I do this with mine also. The wind noise is also lower than most other cars I've driven and much much less than my truck. I only added AC last year and only use it when it truly gets hot. Like Eli said it will cause an immediate 10% mpg drop.
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