New Mafia II PhysX ON/OFF video.

[Keysplayr]

Pretty cool. Shows detailed PhysX on or off comparisons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8D2Kql392c

I'm going to mess with this game some more today.

 

[dguy6789]

So now we need Nvidia PhysX for gun shell casings to appear on the ground? This looks like yet another very obvious case of removing detail that could easily be done without PhysX to make PhysX look good. The link amounts to nothing more than an Nvidia commercial.

 

[dpodblood]

I would have to agree. It just looks like they have scaled back the graphical detail.

 

[Keysplayr]

So now we need Nvidia PhysX for gun shell casings to appear on the ground? This looks like yet another very obvious case of removing detail that could easily be done without PhysX to make PhysX look good. The link amounts to nothing more than an Nvidia commercial.

You should probably watch the video again if the only extra things you saw, were gun shell casings.
It's a video to demonstrate Mafia II with PhysX on and PhsyX off. Of course Nvidia is going to show it off, along with the makers of Mafia II.
Why wouldn't they?
Try to run PhysX ON with it running on the CPU. I'll try in a little bit, but I don't know if I can force that while having an PhysX capable GPU in the system.
Maybe somebody with an AMD GPU setup can try it and see. I'll give it a go in a few.

 

[dguy6789]

I have no doubt it would run poorly if you enabled PhysX but had it run without GPU acceleration; that's the idea. There are plenty of other games that have debris scattered about the ground that don't require PhysX. I was much more impressed with the PhysX of Cryostasis.

Can anyone really look at the "without physX" screenshots of the video and honestly think "yup, that's a great representation of what a 5970 can do, that is what your games will look like if you don't have Nvidia"

 

[Keysplayr]

I have no doubt it would run poorly if you enabled PhysX but had it run without GPU acceleration; that's the idea. There are plenty of other games that have debris scattered about the ground that don't require PhysX. I was much more impressed with the PhysX of Cryostasis.

Look, it doesn't seem like GPU PhysX isn't going away anytime soon. I don't see why it can't be enjoyed or received better than it has been. Proprietary? For PhysX to run on a GPU, I say yes. But PhysX runs on CPU's as well. Just not at the level of GPU's can run it.
So enjoy it, not a big deal.

 

[MrK6]

So now we need Nvidia PhysX for gun shell casings to appear on the ground? This looks like yet another very obvious case of removing detail that could easily be done without PhysX to make PhysX look good. The link amounts to nothing more than an Nvidia commercial.

Exactly. Again, 90% of these effects were done in Max Payne, almost ten years ago, but now they all of a sudden need PhysX. Ironically, a lot of those scenes are more realistic with PhysX off. Bullets, especially .45 ACP's shot from tommy gun, don't chew up pavement into tons of pieces. Sometimes I wonder if developers have ever discharged a firearm in their lives.

 

[Keysplayr]

I have no doubt it would run poorly if you enabled PhysX but had it run without GPU acceleration; that's the idea. There are plenty of other games that have debris scattered about the ground that don't require PhysX. I was much more impressed with the PhysX of Cryostasis.

Can anyone really look at the "without physX" screenshots of the video and honestly think "yup, that's a great representation of what a 5970 can do, that is what your games will look like if you don't have Nvidia"

What does a 5970 have to do with PhysX?

 

[dguy6789]

Look, it doesn't seem like GPU PhysX isn't going away anytime soon. I don't see why it can't be enjoyed or received better than it has been. Proprietary? For PhysX to run on a GPU, I say yes. But PhysX runs on CPU's as well. Just not at the level of GPU's can run it.
So enjoy it, not a big deal.

I have no problem at all with the PhysX in and of itself. I love the potential it has to make games significantly more realistic. That said, games with PhysX available tend to look just plain bad with PhysX off, they don't look good(or even decent) compared to games already out that don't use PhysX. This leads me and many others to believe they are deliberately making it look worse than necessary to exaggerate the benefit of PhysX. The very existence of PhysX in this game hurts everyone who does not have a PhysX capable machine. That is why it's a big deal.

As for PhysX running on a CPU, it's common knowledge that Nvidia deliberately cripples its potential on a CPU to make the GPU look better. PhysX code is extremely parallel capable yet they have it only run one thread even on a CPU with 8 threads.

 

[SirPauly]

It's not just the amount of particle detail but how this detail reacts to the environment that is the most impressive to me. How the glass pieces would break off by a force -- hit a window sill and bounce off to the ground, and simply react to forces.

Here is another comparison video from Zogrim:

http://physxinfo.com/news/3873/apex-physx-in-mafia-ii-particles/

It's like anything else, depends what one may desire. I'll take any advancements in Physics from the CPU or GPU -- because I believe that Physics as a whole may be the next frontier or jump in gaming.

 

[Keysplayr]

Exactly. Again, 90% of these effects were done in Max Payne, almost ten years ago, but now they all of a sudden need PhysX. Ironically, a lot of those scenes are more realistic with PhysX off. Bullets, especially .45 ACP's shot from tommy gun, don't chew up pavement into tons of pieces. Sometimes I wonder if developers have ever discharged a firearm in their lives.

If they were shooting at paved streets, I might agree. However, the video clearly shows cobblestone streets, a very strong, but extremely brittle rock. Anybody who has ever laid cobblestone (I have) and tried to cut it with a hammer and chisel, knows how careful you need to be to not shatter it.
If you're familiar with firearms, get yourself a cobblestone, and a small section of pavement. Shoot each to see the result.
Max Payne had real time physics on the fly? Or was it scripted? I really don't know. Max Payne II used Havoc Physics engine according to Wiki.

 

[Keysplayr]

It's not just the amount of particle detail but how this detail reacts to the environment that is the most impressive to me. How the glass pieces would break off by a force -- hit a window sill and bounce off to the ground, and simply react to forces.

Here is another comparison video from Zogrim:

http://physxinfo.com/news/3873/apex-physx-in-mafia-ii-particles/

It's like anything else, depends what one may desire. I'll take any advancements in Physics from the CPU or GPU -- because I believe that Physics as a whole may be the next frontier or jump in gaming.

That is a great site. I visit there often for the comparison videos.

 

[stag3]

looks like bullet casings and rock/debris when firing weapons
i'm almost done with the game and while firing a weapon, honestly i am watching
enemies die as opposed to what's falling on the floor LOL. and i move past to the
next area right away so i don't even look at the ground.

while cool, i don't really see a need for it (unless i already have an nvidia card i mean, i wouldn't buy one just to have physx tho)

 

[Keysplayr]

looks like bullet casings and rock/debris when firing weapons
i'm almost done with the game and while firing a weapon, honestly i am watching
enemies die as opposed to what's falling on the floor LOL. and i move past to the
next area right away so i don't even look at the ground.

while cool, i don't really see a need for it (unless i already have an nvidia card i mean, i wouldn't buy one just to have physx tho)

Well, that's what you're supposed to do. Watch your enemies. PhysX content just offers another factor of immersion, conscious of it or not. You could have easily played the game with PhysX OFF, but you didn't. Especially with a 5850, you leave PhysX to run on the CPU. Your framerates would have been higher, but you still left PhysX on? Or did you shut it off early on in the game and played that way?

 

[imaheadcase]

It all depends on game engine you use, you don't need physx to do that.

Anyone remember Max Payne? Did that years ago what you see here.

 

[JAG87]

Keys,

The reason people are so hostile towards Physx is because it is being used a marketing tool. It hasn't been providing anything but some additional eye candy, such as debris (which doesn't look realistic anyway), or more realistic cloth movement. Minor improvements in the visual quality which end up costing a ton in performance.

Physx really should be focusing on world interaction, ballistics, cause and effect versus scripted animations. It should make you say, "wow! the game feels (not looks) so much more realistic, I just have to play with physx on" rather than "wtf I lost 40% of my frame rate for some lame debris and cloth?".

Nvidia is using it the wrong way, they are using it for eye candy which is the easiest thing to flaunt in the eyes the customer.

 

[MrK6]

I have no problem at all with the PhysX in and of itself. I love the potential it has to make games significantly more realistic. That said, games with PhysX available tend to look just plain bad with PhysX off, they don't look good(or even decent) compared to games already out that don't use PhysX. This leads me and many others to believe they are deliberately making it look worse than necessary to exaggerate the benefit of PhysX. The very existence of PhysX in this game hurts everyone who does not have a PhysX capable machine. That is why it's a big deal.

As for PhysX running on a CPU, it's common knowledge that Nvidia deliberately cripples its potential on a CPU to make the GPU look better. PhysX code is extremely parallel capable yet they have it only run one thread even on a CPU with 8 threads.

My sentiments exactly, all excellent points.

If they were shooting at paved streets, I might agree. However, the video clearly shows cobblestone streets, a very strong, but extremely brittle rock. Anybody who has ever laid cobblestone (I have) and tried to cut it with a hammer and chisel, knows how careful you need to be to not shatter it.

Even shooting at "brittle" rocks, which cobblestone isn't (maybe the cheap patio brick you can get at Home Depot now, but that sure as heck wasn't sold in the 50's, but I digress), bullets don't split off set and mortared pieces and have the fly into the air. Anybody who has ever discharged a firearm knows this. For the record, shooting a car doesn't look like that either.

If you're familiar with firearms, get yourself a cobblestone, and a small section of pavement. Shoot each to see the result.

Been there, done that, doesn't look like that video, at all.

Max Payne had real time physics on the fly? Or was it scripted? I really don't know. Max Payne II used Havoc Physics engine according to Wiki.

It was one of the first games to have the shells eject from the firearm, in real-time, and group on the ground. Firing dual ingrams in bullet-time and watching the shells just pour out of the gun was a defining moment in gaming history. The "fight dust" a-la John Woo was also very impressive and also a pioneering feature. Anyway, looks the same, was done ten years ago, can't say I'm impressed.

 

[Keysplayr]

It all depends on game engine you use, you don't need physx to do that.

Anyone remember Max Payne? Did that years ago what you see here.

And back then, I don't think anyone cared how it was done, only that it "was" done. Times are a changing.

 

[Genx87]

For being a tech community it is amazing the amount of resident luddites we have.

 

[Lonyo]

For being a tech community it is amazing the amount of resident luddites we have.

I was at a family gathering at the weekend. One of my cousins (who is 4, and female) got a new pair of shoes. The reason she chose that pair over any others? It had glitter.

It's amazing the number of little girls we have who like pretty shiny glittery things even when they add no substance, despite being based on something which could potentially fundamentally improve or change game experiences.

 

[Keysplayr]

For being a tech community it is amazing the amount of resident luddites we have.

I can understand that people who own GPU's that cannot run PhysX are annoyed. But I can't understand that because of this, they do not want any technological advancements to happen. It really doesn't make much sense for a technical oriented community. Ordinarily, you'd see a techno geek, such as myself say, "Wow, this is really cool, or has potential to be very nice." Not, "We don't need no stinking PhysX."

That just doesn't really happen.

 

[Daedalus685]

For being a tech community it is amazing the amount of resident luddites we have.

I'm not sure how resentment towards a method of doing something many feel is done already using more available means makes them a Luddite... Perhaps if the physX off videos really were the best physics we have ever otherwise seen there would be a point but this is not even remotely the case.

The problem is not "omg in game physics is new and scary" but that the examples physX provides are quite contrived... I don't feel anyone woudl care if physX looked exactly as good as it does now but that "off" provided something more akin to the general software physics we are used to in things like crysis.. It is the artificial delta that pisses folks off, not the look of physX. Though the few who own a card for physX that can't use them due to ATI primary are likely pissed for very different reasons.

 

[Keysplayr]

I was at a family gathering at the weekend. One of my cousins (who is 4, and female) got a new pair of shoes. The reason she chose that pair over any others? It had glitter.

It's amazing the number of little girls we have who like pretty shiny glittery things even when they add no substance, despite being based on something which could potentially fundamentally improve or change game experiences.

Whether it appeals to other 4 year old girls or not, your cousin chose something with a little extra. When your cousin gets to be 24 years old, she may choose her shoes the very same way. An extra strap on a set of heals that a just for show but doesn't add any functionality to the shoe itself.
Sort of like my nephew who chose sneakers that have lights in the heals that flash when he walks or runs. Something extra, because naturally most people DO like to have something extra.

 

[Kenmitch]

Although phsyX can add some cool effects to the gaming experience the implimentation in Mafia II looks to be heavily funded by nvidia! If you wanna praise or condone this kinda action then more power to you

It's implementation like this that make everybody frown on physX in the first place. And it's actions like this that make others frown on nvidia!

Hell next thing will be all the enemies your trying to kill will be rendered by physX and if you have an ATI card you'll see a stick figure!

Guess that's the way spoiled rich kids play anyways

 

[Keysplayr]

Although phsyX can add some cool effects to the gaming experience the implimentation in Mafia II looks to be heavily funded by nvidia! If you wanna praise or condone this kinda action then more power to you

It's implementation like this that make everybody frown on physX in the first place. And it's actions like this that make others frown on nvidia!

Hell next thing will be all the enemies your trying to kill will be rendered by physX and if you have an ATI card you'll see a stick figure!

Guess that's the way spoiled rich kids play anyways

This (bolded) is sort of the problem. More care goes into "who" did it, than what was done. Lot's of unexplainable things.

And what about spoiled rich kids? What does this even mean?

By the way, PhysX doesn't render anything.