new engine from id

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: CP5670
Originally posted by: Smilin
Uh. Bullsh1t.

It ran perfect on my machine at the time at 1600x1200 so don't give me some "issues that occur on any system". It sounds like you either 1) Tinkered with console commands and screwed up or 2) have a crappy rig or 3) Are confusing the half life 2 cache stuttering problem.

Either you're running the game at 60hz or your eyes simply aren't very good. Turn the refresh rate above 60, set the game to 640x480 to keep the framerate high, make sure vsync is on and add the lines "seta com_preciseTic "0" " and "seta com_fixedTic "1" " to your doomconfig.cfg file. Move around in the opening area while looking down at the grating on the floor. If you still can't notice any difference, the latter possibility seems to be more likely. :p

As I said earlier, many people somehow don't notice it until they actually compare it side-by-side with the fix, but then they have no trouble seeing it every time afterwards. In some sense, it's a good thing if you are not seeing it, but it's most certainly there.

I know that the effect is visible on a 6800GT, a single 7800GT, two 7800GTs and an X1900XTX, with a couple of different combinations of processors and motherboards, so it can't just be a system specific thing.

Never noticed that on my 9800 or X800, by the time I got myself the 8800 I had already gotten my 24" LCD, so 60 Hz it is ;)
And yes, trust me, I would notice.
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
Originally posted by: CP5670
Originally posted by: Smilin
Uh. Bullsh1t.

It ran perfect on my machine at the time at 1600x1200 so don't give me some "issues that occur on any system". It sounds like you either 1) Tinkered with console commands and screwed up or 2) have a crappy rig or 3) Are confusing the half life 2 cache stuttering problem.

Either you're running the game at 60hz or your eyes simply aren't very good. Turn the refresh rate above 60, set the game to 640x480 to keep the framerate high, make sure vsync is on and add the lines "seta com_preciseTic "0" " and "seta com_fixedTic "1" " to your doomconfig.cfg file. Move around in the opening area while looking down at the grating on the floor. If you still can't notice any difference, the latter possibility seems to be more likely. :p

As I said earlier, many people somehow don't notice it until they actually compare it side-by-side with the fix, but then they have no trouble seeing it every time afterwards. In some sense, it's a good thing if you are not seeing it, but it's most certainly there.

I know that the effect is visible on a 6800GT, a single 7800GT, two 7800GTs and an X1900XTX, with a couple of different combinations of processors and motherboards, so it can't just be a system specific thing.

Originally posted by: Smilin
Uh. Bullsh1t.

It ran perfect on my machine at the time at 1600x1200 so don't give me some "issues that occur on any system". It sounds like you either 1) Tinkered with console commands and screwed up or 2) have a crappy rig or 3) Are confusing the half life 2 cache stuttering problem.


I run at 85-100hz on my monitor and don't typcally use vsync. I also don't need to turn down the res to keep my framerate high. My current rig pegs at 60fps (the doom rev limiter) at 16x12. There's nothing wrong with Doom3 bro. There wasn't on my 9700pro, 6800gt, or 7950gx2. There wasn't on my athlon xp 2000, 3000, or x2 4600. There's also nothing wrong with my eyes. I have better than 20/20 vision and I'm one of those rare people that can see the difference between 85 and 100fps (not beyond tho).

There isn't anything wrong with Doom. Give this retarded argument a rest.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,668
768
126
Originally posted by: Smilin
I run at 85-100hz on my monitor and don't typcally use vsync. I also don't need to turn down the res to keep my framerate high. My current rig pegs at 60fps (the doom rev limiter) at 16x12. There's nothing wrong with Doom3 bro. There wasn't on my 9700pro, 6800gt, or 7950gx2. There wasn't on my athlon xp 2000, 3000, or x2 4600. There's also nothing wrong with my eyes. I have better than 20/20 vision and I'm one of those rare people that can see the difference between 85 and 100fps (not beyond tho).

There isn't anything wrong with Doom. Give this retarded argument a rest.

Did you try doing what I described? You are obviously among the people who simply do not see it immediately.

This is one of the threads I was referring to earlier. There is some useful information in it among the flames.
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
Originally posted by: CP5670
Originally posted by: Smilin
I run at 85-100hz on my monitor and don't typcally use vsync. I also don't need to turn down the res to keep my framerate high. My current rig pegs at 60fps (the doom rev limiter) at 16x12. There's nothing wrong with Doom3 bro. There wasn't on my 9700pro, 6800gt, or 7950gx2. There wasn't on my athlon xp 2000, 3000, or x2 4600. There's also nothing wrong with my eyes. I have better than 20/20 vision and I'm one of those rare people that can see the difference between 85 and 100fps (not beyond tho).

There isn't anything wrong with Doom. Give this retarded argument a rest.

Did you try doing what I described? You are obviously among the people who simply do not see it immediately.

This is one of the threads I was referring to earlier. There is some useful information in it among the flames.

Honestly no I didn't do what you described. I don't really care to spend the effort. The game does not stutter in the slightest. The framerate stays pegged at the limiter without a hiccough. The last time I played this was when the expansion hit and I've moved on to newer things. Whatever problem you are describing it has slipped past me and everyone else on this thread. I'm still not getting whatever point you are trying to make. The doom 3 engine sucks? I couldn't disagree more.

edit: .....

From the thread you quoted above:
The issue is the following:
- a small hiccup every second. It is NOT a freezing problem, and it is not a constant stutter (like when the card cannot mantain a constant FPS). Is kind if the card does not display the 58th and 59th frame of every 60. No matter the complexity of the scene, its ALWAYS there.

I do NOT see this problem. Never have. End of story.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,668
768
126
Originally posted by: Smilin
Honestly no I didn't do what you described. I don't really care to spend the effort. The game does not stutter in the slightest. The framerate stays pegged at the limiter without a hiccough. The last time I played this was when the expansion hit and I've moved on to newer things. Whatever problem you are describing it has slipped past me and everyone else on this thread. I'm still not getting whatever point you are trying to make. The doom 3 engine sucks? I couldn't disagree more.

I'm saying that the D3 engine has some problem here and it has to do with the 60 ticrate. Some people may not notice it, but there are others like myself who find it essentially unplayable without using the speed fix I described. Once that has been done, the engine looks good and runs well (although there were better ones even at its time), and the slow-mo during fights is actually sort of neat after you get used to it.

Also, the framerate has nothing to do with it. It will stutter even if the framerate constantly stays over 100. The frameskipping occurs more or less continuously, perhaps three or four times a second.

I do NOT see this problem. Never have. End of story.

Good for you. Then you don't have to deal with it. :D Doesn't mean the problem does not exist.
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
Originally posted by: CP5670
Originally posted by: Smilin
I do NOT see this problem. Never have. End of story.
Good for you. Then you don't have to deal with it. :D Doesn't mean the problem does not exist.
You said it exists on any system. From my response and others that does not appear to be a true statement.
Originally posted by: CP5670
No, they are well-documented issues that occur on any system.
;)
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,668
768
126
It probably does occur, assuming you are in fact using something greater than 60hz in the game (this should be verified manually due to that XP OGL bug), but that doesn't necessarily imply that you will notice it. :p

My brother played through the whole game on my system without noticing it at all, but after I showed him the comparison, he was wondering how he ever missed it. I've seen the same story from a few other people on various forums.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: CP5670
It probably does occur, assuming you are in fact using something greater than 60hz in the game (this should be verified manually due to that XP OGL bug), but that doesn't necessarily imply that you will notice it. :p

My brother played through the whole game on my system without noticing it at all, but after I showed him the comparison, he was wondering how he ever missed it. I've seen the same story from a few other people on various forums.

Like I said, I haven't experienced it either, playing the game on three different rigs, and like I said, I would notice, I'm always the first to complain whenever a game stutters, the mouse won't track right, or whatever.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: CP5670
Originally posted by: Smilin
Honestly no I didn't do what you described. I don't really care to spend the effort. The game does not stutter in the slightest. The framerate stays pegged at the limiter without a hiccough. The last time I played this was when the expansion hit and I've moved on to newer things. Whatever problem you are describing it has slipped past me and everyone else on this thread. I'm still not getting whatever point you are trying to make. The doom 3 engine sucks? I couldn't disagree more.

I'm saying that the D3 engine has some problem here and it has to do with the 60 ticrate. Some people may not notice it, but there are others like myself who find it essentially unplayable without using the speed fix I described. Once that has been done, the engine looks good and runs well (although there were better ones even at its time), and the slow-mo during fights is actually sort of neat after you get used to it.

Also, the framerate has nothing to do with it. It will stutter even if the framerate constantly stays over 100. The frameskipping occurs more or less continuously, perhaps three or four times a second.

I do NOT see this problem. Never have. End of story.

Good for you. Then you don't have to deal with it. :D Doesn't mean the problem does not exist.

i doesn't occur on my rig either

but there there are people who swear the Source engine is "stutter free" ... it is not ... it still stutters in DM M&M ... on all of my rigs ... yet Valve has never admitted it and their fanboys don't see it [or perhaps really don't experience it] although it is well-documented ... much better than D3 foibles.
 

40sTheme

Golden Member
Sep 24, 2006
1,607
0
0
Once again, Source doesn't stutter EVER on any Source game on my computer... And I'm not a fanboy, I don't particularly like Source in the first place. No Source games stutter on 2 of my friend's computers either.
 

Sureshot324

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2003
3,370
0
71
Originally posted by: 40sTheme
Once again, Source doesn't stutter EVER on any Source game on my computer... And I'm not a fanboy, I don't particularly like Source in the first place. No Source games stutter on 2 of my friend's computers either.

Mine neither. Source is an excellent engine for what it does, which is provide decent graphics and smooth framerates even on old machines. That's a big part of why Valve games are so popular. You can run the Source engine on a Pentium 3 with a geforce 1.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Originally posted by: 40sTheme
Once again, Source doesn't stutter EVER on any Source game on my computer... And I'm not a fanboy, I don't particularly like Source in the first place. No Source games stutter on 2 of my friend's computers either.

Mine neither. Source is an excellent engine for what it does, which is provide decent graphics and smooth framerates even on old machines. That's a big part of why Valve games are so popular. You can run the Source engine on a Pentium 3 with a geforce 1.
of course ... since it doesn't have to deal with complex lighting and shadows, it will run on old machines

that is NOTHING to recommend it as a MODERN engine ... D3 and GameBryo just blow it away ... to say nothing of Unreal3 and true next gen engines ... the Source Flashlight is a weak joke.

it is well documented
... much more so than D3 synch-issues

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_engine
Stutter

The Source Engine uses a caching system, whereby the loading of certain resources is handled and managed on the fly, rather than in a single operation behind a traditional loading screen. Texture and sound data are the primary areas in which this occurs. Textures are loaded to memory but only moved to the system's video card when needed and audio files are loaded with an unusual "soundcache" system: only the first 0.125 seconds of each file are pre-cached, and the clip is used to cover the asynchronous buffering of the full sound file in the background when it is first requested.

Both systems keep data in the heap until there is no more room and older resources are flushed out, and when either is held up or otherwise slowed down the engine will either freeze or go into a temporary loop until the data arrives. 'Stuttering', or 'hitching' as it is sometimes known, is the result of these pauses.

While stutter can be caused by poor system performance, it has also been noted on hardware setups that should be more than powerful enough to cope with the data rate, and despite many theories, the precise cause remains unknown to the public even over two years since the engine's debut. Most solutions that have been found involve bypassing the caching system, as it cannot be directly disabled, or system-specific optimizations (e.g. driver updates).

When Half-Life 2 was first released and stuttering became a widely-known problem, community member Mark McWilliams set up a page covering the issue and Valve's communication and work on resolving it. [19] Several updates were released by Valve, the effects of which varied from complete fixes for some users to previously smooth systems becoming "infected" with the problem.

* Example (.WMV), showing a relatively low level of stutter. The hitches coincide with the drawing of new areas (a process that is by design not visible without debugging tools).

Most recently (February 7, 2006), changes to the Source engine were introduced alongside a beta test of Steam's Friends chat service, with the aim of 'narrowing down' the problem. [20] The update featured a limited implementation of Source's file streaming system (see above). Generally, the response was very positive.

Looping audio

The Source Engine suffers from an error whereby the asynchronous loading (see Stutter, above) of a new sound file will cause the engine to lock up with looping audio. Because of the nature of DirectX, once the engine enters such a state it will remain on the screen unless the user can blindly terminate the program, or reboots their computer. The error occurs in a standard Windows library associated with on-board sound cards, and in some cases can be resolved by decreasing DirectSound Acceleration.

Reports of looping audio crashes increased around the release of Episode One. While it is likely that the spike was simply because there was an unusually high number of people playing the game, changes to the engine, of which there were many for the game, cannot be ruled out. It has been noted that people who have been able to play Half-Life 2 without any crashes and audio errors in fact do find Episode 1 to be more prone to that problem. A steampowered.com forum thread is dedicated to discussing the problem and attempting to work out solutions, although the experience of the thread contributors indicates that most suggested workarounds and fixes do not remedy the problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...iah_of_Might_and_Magic
Release problems

According to many reports on the Ubisoft forum the initial release of Dark Messiah (both retail and on Steam) was riddled with bugs that make the game unplayable for some. On the same day as the initial Steam release (October 25, 2006) there were already two patches released via Steam, but many posts on the forums stated that these did not help. Further patches have been released but complaints are still posted on the forums.

Many of the difficulties faced by gamers revolve around long loading times as well as stuttering graphics and sound looping. These last two difficulties are common to many games that use the Source engine. Some explanations are that the game uses a very large number of complex textures, more so than previous games that used the Source engine. Suggestions for fixing these problems include reducing texture detail within the game as well as closing down background processes such as virus checkers. [1] Some forum posters have acknowledged that following these suggestions has improved game performance.

Other problems reported on the forums are that the multiplayer game is unbalanced with some of the multiplayer character-types being too powerful. A number of online reviews also commented on this. Other gamers have stated on the forums that each character-type requires the gamer to play in a specific style and that some of the character-types are just more difficult to play than others as opposed to being unbalanced.

Many players also reported small grammatical errors during loading screens and chapter introduction screens that, while harmless, were quite annoying and detracted from the storyline. These have yet to be fixed.

http://www.blep.net/hl2stutter/
The Half-Life 2 Stuttering Problem

This site is a collection of information on a problem with Half-Life 2 that has plagued many players of this otherwise excellent game. This problem is characterized by a sudden massive drop in frame rate when turning corners or moving into new areas of the game. These drops are usually accompanied by looping or stuttering sound during the frame rate drop which is how most people become aware of the problem. Aside from these isolated drops in frame rate, the game is otherwise perfectly smooth. These sudden drops kill the immersion and lead to a very frustrating experience. Below you will find additional details on this problem, some theories, and all responses from Valve on this problem.
...
Valve's Response

Valve has officially acknowledged this issue on the Steam news page:

We're also investigating a solution for the sound skipping problems a small number of users are running into. We'll have a solution for this as soon as possible.

I am a bit concerned that they refer to this issue as a "sound skipping problem" when in fact the whole game pauses while the sound is skipping. It will be unacceptable if they simply prevent the sound from skipping while the pausing still occurs.

Valve has been active in the Shacknews comments and a few other forums. Below is a response posted by Yahn Bernier in the Steam Users Forum:

We think it's actually a video driver issue, but we're still investigating. Just sit tight and we'll get word out on this as soon as we figure out what the fix will be.

much more ... search it yourself
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,003
126
HL2 made major inroads when it came to rendering complex outside environments with insane speed.
Eh? While HL2's outdoor environments looked great they were mostly empty and hence very simple.

Doom 3 had some pretty complex outdoor environments (e.g. during the monorail ride) but they usually didn't allow you to enter them.

Also FWIW I never experienced the stuttering problem in either Doom 3 or HL2. I had it in Far Cry but that was shoddy nVidia drivers on my 6800 Ultra.

For those who believe the Doom 3 engine is great, explain why Prey is the only non Id game to use the engine?
Irrelevant.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
Originally posted by: Smilin
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: BladeVenom
For those who believe the Doom 3 engine is great, explain why Prey is the only non Id game to use the engine?

Well Source is Crap and a LOT of games use it

what is your point?

Seriously. What does business, licensing fees and whatnot have to do with how good an engine is?

Oh wait, I know! Everyone is licensing source because they like games that don't do dynamic shadows right! :roll:

Bring a better argument to the discussion, Blade.

The point is that the people who make the games, and know a lot more about the game engine than you do, don't want to use the Doom 3 engine.

Is whether you buy a game or not decided by the dynamic shadows? You like dynamic shadows, well what about soft shadows? If you want proper shadows look at some of the ray tracing game demos.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: BladeVenom


The point is that the people who make the games, and know a lot more about the game engine than you do, don't want to use the Doom 3 engine.
How do you know?

*you don't*

perhaps the license is too expensive
 

Lord Banshee

Golden Member
Sep 8, 2004
1,495
0
0
I like to add about the shuttering problem:

The only shuttering i ever got in doom3 and/or half-life 2 is when you encounter an event for the first time, like the first time you see an enemy. After than it is fast as it is already loaded. From my understanding it has nothing to do with the graphics at all, it has everything to do with how the implementation of loading objects to decreases initial load time. On my systems at least, you can find this "shuttering" as you call it over and over again if you do the fellowing. Reboot machine, start doom3, console, timedemo demo1. You will notice when it encounter an enemy the first time it will have little skips in animation. If you run the timedemo again after the first is complete it is completely fluent.

This is a compromise game developers have to make as all the people that buy said games do not have 8GB of RAM to load the whole game before it starts, and lets not talk about how long the loading screen will be if they did do this too.

I have played both games on a list of video cards so and the games all look the same from both vender's and problems the same too. from a geforce3, FX5900, 9800pro, 6800NU, 7800GT, and X1950XT.

Anyway now to my take on Source Engine and Doom3 is pretty much what BFG and others have said.

Source: Has better textures, and if you ever downloaded the Cinematic mod they are 10x even better. The physics is good, but i don't think all game companies by graphics engine for the physics as there are physics engines out there too. I also like how objects seem more real size compared to other games... I do not know, a chair in source just seems like a chair i was looking at though my eyes. I can't explain that but maybe a FOV thing?

Doom3: I liked the static and dynamic environment models. A room wasn't just a room, there was pipes, crates, holes, steam, floor panels, and computer. Another plus about doom3 was its lighting, all i have to say is wow and with one of the first to do the dynamic lighting and normal maps it just worked. Yes i wish the shadows where soft but if they use any technique like fear than no one would be able to play the game at the time. And talking about fear some reason i hate the non-soft shadows in it too, it just seem way over done. Things i don't like about doom is the texture quality even at ultra. They are very low res and it look great on an SDTV but a computer display i want to see detail 2kx2k or higher textures...

I like id engines and i wish more games developers choose them but oh well and that the business. But i am sure the past couple of year where MS said they were not included OpenGL in vista a lot of company would rather choose a dx path to grab the most gamers.

Anyway thats my take on it, BTW what games use the Source engine?

I am looking forward to seewhat id is cooking up
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
Originally posted by: BladeVenom
What was so great about Doom3?
The textures looked plastic
The polygon count was low, everyone had pointed heads
The number of characters in the game at one time was low
The environments were small with no open places
The A.I. was pathetic
The physics were average
Maybe the horrible gameplay and poor level designs helped mask the bad features?

 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: BladeVenom


The point is that the people who make the games, and know a lot more about the game engine than you do, don't want to use the Doom 3 engine.
How do you know?

*you don't*

perhaps the license is too expensive

The older Unreal 2 engine is $350,000 plus 3% of revenue. They haven't publicly released the licensing costs for the newer Unreal 3 engine.

The Doom 3 engine is $250,000 plus 5% of revenue.

Source engine pricing is confidential and only discussed under NDA.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: BladeVenom


The point is that the people who make the games, and know a lot more about the game engine than you do, don't want to use the Doom 3 engine.
How do you know?

*you don't*

perhaps the license is too expensive

The older Unreal 2 engine is $350,000 plus 3% of revenue. They haven't publicly released the licensing costs for the newer Unreal 3 engine.

The Doom 3 engine is $250,000 plus 5% of revenue.

Source engine pricing is confidential and only discussed under NDA.

again ... you prove nothing as to the "why" ... nor do you provide a link

Perhaps id is a PitA to work with or offers less "hand-holding" than the Unreal guys ... or perhaps perhaps because it is OpenGl and - until recently - DX10 features were not available to it

[late edit]
 

Dethfrumbelo

Golden Member
Nov 16, 2004
1,499
0
0
What about CryEngine? Other than Crytek's own games (Far Cry, Instincts, etc.), I was only able to find three other games that are using it (are going to anyway): Aion: The Tower of Eternity by NCSoft, and NED and Kailas by WeMade (another South Korean developer).

Crytek doesn't disclose any details about the cost of the license, but if WeMade can afford it, it probably isn't out of line with any of the others.

 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
well i guess there really aren't that many big fps games, and the ones that are big already have their own engine:p