New Documentary about TWA Flight 800, Watch it Now!

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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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yeah I was going to say the entire official line is the contrary viewpoint.

I'm not buying that. The documentarian knows that his viewers haven't read that report. There is precious little in the way of interviews which show the other viewpoint. Not only that, we're told there were 200+ witnesses to the incident, while purportedly about 70 said they saw a "streak of light." Apparently it wasn't important to interview anyone who said they didn't see the streak of line, even though there were twice as many of them.

My favorite scene is where they have a bunch of "streak of light" witnesses all in the same room, and the documentarian assembles what appears to be a single narrative by editing fragments of their statements together, implying that there are no inconsistencies in their accounts and that they all agree on every detail.

This is biased documentary. I'm not sure how anyone can view it otherwise.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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It's not that hard for a terrorist group to sneak in shoulder-fired STA missile.
True, but as Woolfe points out there is great risk in covering up something like this. There is also great difficulty in covering up something like this. We know in the past that the government has covered up evidence of acts of war, no doubt to avoid being pressured into war, but it's difficult to imagine why any nation with which we would fear a war would bring down this particular aircraft. I suppose it's possible that the government would want to cover up a terrorist act such as this, but I can't imagine why, nor can I recall any other such incidents. Cover up foreknowledge, yes, but not covering up the actual terrorist act which is much more difficult and without (at least to me) such self-serving reasons for the cover-up. Without a compelling reason or historical precedent, I have a hard time believing that this happened.

As far as a shoulder-fired missile, I don't think this really fits. Most shoulder-fired missiles are IR homing, so the missile should have taken out an engine rather than going for the center of mass which requires either a very sophisticated guidance system or continuous control. Neither is beyond the realm of possibility, but neither seems particularly likely for a singular terrorist event. Also, most AA missiles are proximity-fused; this seems to be something large enough to almost immediately destroy the structural integrity of a very large and relatively robust air frame. Today such missiles are not at all uncommon due to the anti-missile role, especially launched from ships, but I don't think they were that common in 1996. That's why I lean toward either a strike from a wayward training missile with an inert warhead, or an inadvertent launch of a large ship-borne AA missile.

It's possible that this was an early test of a missile defense missile, but three things argue against it. First, such missiles are generally widely hyped by the manufacturers. Second, the military exercises in the area seem to have been fairly routine - not the kind of situation (especially given the proximity to busy flight paths) for such a test. And third, missiles in early tests often go haywire, so they are not generally tested in any kind of military exercises until very mature and type-classified. One thing is for sure: For something like this to happen as an accident, several things have to fail or break at the same time. We have some pretty good evidence that one such thing did happen - the naval group was too close to the shipping lanes - but the official story is that this dd not happen. When we have sufficient evidence to doubt the official story, but not sufficient evidence to disprove the official story, how can we really know what happened? That's why I likened it to JFK's assassination. Both have things that really cast doubt on the official story without enough evidence to establish what did happen, or even that the official story is actually wrong.

Very early on the NTSB seemed (to my untrained observation anyway) to go into cover-up mode. For instance, seizing rather than copying radar tapes, including back-ups, and seizing film media (including threatening jail time for copies) but not cameras. In evaluating film it's often very useful to have the actual camera, but it's hardly useful to have copies of the film or digital media. That suggests to me that they knew from very early on the need to cover up the incident, because it normally takes time to figure out what happened. If a terrorist fired a shoulder-launched or even launcher-launched missile, surely it would have taken some time to figure out what happened, present this information in preliminary form to Clinton, have him decide to cover it up, and then implement the cover up. And everyone familiar with the investigation up to that point is a security risk. I don't think it's possible to have a cover up of something of this magnitude without almost immediately making that decision, else someone will surely disagree, or have an attack of conscience, or simply hate Clinton too much to keep the secret.

It's also possible that there is something behind the scenes that led to this looking like a cover up without that actually being the case. Sometimes coincidences do happen, and even Freud knew that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

EDIT: Also, apologies to Flexy but I still haven't watched the video. Was going to listen to it, but the password did not work for me.
 
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lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
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I'm not buying that. The documentarian knows that his viewers haven't read that report. There is precious little in the way of interviews which show the other viewpoint. Not only that, we're told there were 200+ witnesses to the incident, while purportedly about 70 said they saw a "streak of light." Apparently it wasn't important to interview anyone who said they didn't see the streak of line, even though there were twice as many of them.

My favorite scene is where they have a bunch of "streak of light" witnesses all in the same room, and the documentarian assembles what appears to be a single narrative by editing fragments of their statements together, implying that there are no inconsistencies in their accounts and that they all agree on every detail.

This is biased documentary. I'm not sure how anyone can view it otherwise.

I disagree, when creating the documentary you have to think that the folks that will watch it have some familiarization with the case. Why spend 20-30 minutes demonstrating the official line on what occurred?

They did in fact present contrary data, they did so when examining the official report and picked apart some of it.

Take all the eye witness accounts out of it, just going by the examination of the data and the recollection of actual NTSB investigators of the data.

The only claim was that the explosion was not caused by the wiring near/in the fuel tank, they make no other real assertions officially outside of that.

Near the end when they are singing the document in hopes of a new investigation the only contention was the explosions could not have been caused in the manner the official report concludes.

I ended watching with the feeling that there is more to the story and pretty compelling evidence was brought forward to warrant another look.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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I disagree, when creating the documentary you have to think that the folks that will watch it have some familiarization with the case. Why spend 20-30 minutes demonstrating the official line on what occurred?

They did in fact present contrary data, they did so when examining the official report and picked apart some of it.

Take all the eye witness accounts out of it, just going by the examination of the data and the recollection of actual NTSB investigators of the data.

The only claim was that the explosion was not caused by the wiring near/in the fuel tank, they make no other real assertions officially outside of that.

Near the end when they are singing the document in hopes of a new investigation the only contention was the explosions could not have been caused in the manner the official report concludes.

I ended watching with the feeling that there is more to the story and pretty compelling evidence was brought forward to warrant another look.

No, I'm not going to take the eye witness accounts out of it. The documentarian put them in there to be persuasive. He cherry picked their remarks to be persuasive. He ignored the testimony of the greater number of witnesses who did not agree, to be persuasive. He maligns the notion of what he calls "mass misperception" - without explaining the "mass misperception" of the curiously absent majority of the witnesses - to be persuasive. He presents this material as an advocate.

He isn't trying to be neutral, and accordingly, I'm not going to accept his conclusions or arguments until I hear the contrary view, and that includes all the forensic points addressed by his team of disgruntled ex-investigators. I don't have the level of expertise necessary to evaluate those arguments, so no, I'm not going to draw a conclusion without both sides of the argument.

So far as conducting further investigation, I think they should release the evidence for testing by independent labs, at the expense of whoever is interested in the results. This documentary isn't weighty enough to make the case for more tax payer money being spent on it.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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Yes, and some said they saw it come from a light on the water, i.e. a ship. The witnesses said very many different things.

A stinger carriers a 2 Kg warhead. I doubt that is sufficient to down a 747. Maybe with a very a lucky shot.

Halfway through the documentary so far. I'm unimpressed with it's cherry picking of witnesses, and with it's cherry picking of fragments of their testimony to make it sound like they were all consistent. I'm also unimpressed with the absence of any contrary viewpoint.

I am by far no pro at this but isn't a stinger a heat seeking missile? If so I would assume it would lock on/target one of the engines. Seeing as how the engines are connected to the wings and the wings are full of jet fuel wouldn't it just have to breach the fuel tank?
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
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No, I'm not going to take the eye witness accounts out of it. The documentarian put them in there to be persuasive. He cherry picked their remarks to be persuasive. He ignored the testimony of the greater number of witnesses who did not agree, to be persuasive. He maligns the notion of what he calls "mass misperception" - without explaining the "mass misperception" of the curiously absent majority of the witnesses - to be persuasive. He presents this material as an advocate.

He isn't trying to be neutral, and accordingly, I'm not going to accept his conclusions or arguments until I hear the contrary view, and that includes all the forensic points addressed by his team of disgruntled ex-investigators. I don't have the level of expertise necessary to evaluate those arguments, so no, I'm not going to draw a conclusion without both sides of the argument.

So far as conducting further investigation, I think they should release the evidence for testing by independent labs, at the expense of whoever is interested in the results. This documentary isn't weighty enough to make the case for more tax payer money being spent on it.

You have the right to your opinion, I specifically have looked into this prior and have read the previous contended evidence and witness reports.

I didnt feel the need to have them revisited in a documentary that was suggesting the offical line wasnt accurate.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
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I don't see any need for the documentary to include the NTSB's side.

These guys are trying to prove their case and get it reopened and they've only got so much time in a documentary.

No, they are not neutral. Why would anyone think they were? They believe their explanation is correct and the NTSB is wrong. They're obviously not neutral.

I would expect the purpose of the documentary is to get people interested in this, and persuade enough people that the case needs to be reopened.

Their investigative techniques and interpretation of facts/evidence is what needs to be unbiased, not the documentary.

Fern
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I am by far no pro at this but isn't a stinger a heat seeking missile? If so I would assume it would lock on/target one of the engines. Seeing as how the engines are connected to the wings and the wings are full of jet fuel wouldn't it just have to breach the fuel tank?
I thought that too, that it would probably be a rather slow downing from fire given that a 747 has four engines and losing one is unlikely to cause a crash and almost certainly would not cause the aircraft to immediately break up. I do see a couple things I was wrong about though. I thought Stingers had proximity fusing, but on the Designation-Systems page it shows it also has delayed impact which would be very well suited to breaking up a plane, and that its seeker has logic to home in on the front of a plane where the cockpit maximizes the small warhead's destructive potential from the concentration of controls plus the pilot. Given the airliner's slow speed and lack of defensive maneuvering the proximity seeker would be unlikely to flip before the missile impacted, so I suppose it's a possible candidate.

Of course, a Stinger has a fairly short range for an AD missile, so it's less likely that one would be fired in error. And I don't think there are any sea-borne launchers, so the operator would have to manually aim, achieve lock, and fire. That puts us back to the government covering up an intentional strike, which seems somewhat unlikely. It also makes it unlikely that the aircraft was destroyed to kill a particular person or persons, since there wouldn't be an easy way to identify the aircraft before firing. That would require a second team to provide targeting info (to strike the right plane) which means TWO conspiracies would have to remain secret.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
You're not going to down a multi-engine commercial aircraft with one manpad.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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I thought that too, that it would probably be a rather slow downing from fire given that a 747 has four engines and losing one is unlikely to cause a crash and almost certainly would not cause the aircraft to immediately break up. I do see a couple things I was wrong about though. I thought Stingers had proximity fusing, but on the Designation-Systems page it shows it also has delayed impact which would be very well suited to breaking up a plane, and that its seeker has logic to home in on the front of a plane where the cockpit maximizes the small warhead's destructive potential from the concentration of controls plus the pilot. Given the airliner's slow speed and lack of defensive maneuvering the proximity seeker would be unlikely to flip before the missile impacted, so I suppose it's a possible candidate.

Of course, a Stinger has a fairly short range for an AD missile, so it's less likely that one would be fired in error. And I don't think there are any sea-borne launchers, so the operator would have to manually aim, achieve lock, and fire. That puts us back to the government covering up an intentional strike, which seems somewhat unlikely. It also makes it unlikely that the aircraft was destroyed to kill a particular person or persons, since there wouldn't be an easy way to identify the aircraft before firing. That would require a second team to provide targeting info (to strike the right plane) which means TWO conspiracies would have to remain secret.

Given the strong possibility that a single stringer would fail to down a 747, you'd want to use multiples. Unlike sophisticated SAM equipment, terrorists could have any number of stingers. We supplied them in bulk to the Afghani resistance in the 1980's to help down Soviet attack copters, and IIRC these things are frequently sold by international arms dealers. A terrorist plot to down a 747 with a single stinger, if true, means a very foolish terrorist who just got it right on the money.

Also, I have to wonder how visible such a small missile would have been to all those witnesses. I submit that if this was indeed a missile it quite likely was a lot larger than a stinger.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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I don't see any need for the documentary to include the NTSB's side.

These guys are trying to prove their case and get it reopened and they've only got so much time in a documentary.

No, they are not neutral. Why would anyone think they were? They believe their explanation is correct and the NTSB is wrong. They're obviously not neutral.

I would expect the purpose of the documentary is to get people interested in this, and persuade enough people that the case needs to be reopened.

Their investigative techniques and interpretation of facts/evidence is what needs to be unbiased, not the documentary.

Fern

That's fine. My view is that I don't trust information that is provided selectively by someone with an axe to grind. You're free to disregard their bias and instead hold only one side to a standard of objectivity.

You'll pardon if I want to hear both sides of the argument. I'm funny that way.

- wolf
 

imported_blip

Senior member
Dec 13, 2004
226
0
76
That's fine. My view is that I don't trust information that is provided selectively by someone with an axe to grind. You're free to disregard their bias and instead hold only one side to a standard of objectivity.

You'll pardon if I want to hear both sides of the argument. I'm funny that way.

- wolf

The NTSB has published their report, available on their website, which is the other side of the argument.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
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They must have changed the PW since they probably didn't like more and more people watching the movie before the "official" release of the film July 17th.

The link was from their press kit where they gave journalists and press access early access to the film with the password. Sorry guys, no information about a new password :(
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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The NTSB has published their report, available on their website, which is the other side of the argument.

Yeah, and I'll likely go ahead and read it. But how many viewers of that will have read it before or after? The documentarian knows that the typical viewer at most has wiki level background on this.

Ever seen a documentary where they interview one person who has viewpoint x, and then interview another with the contra-viewpoint to allow the viewer to decide? Well this isn't one of them.

It's nice that one side has their entertaining bit of cinema with dramatic music and emotional testimony, the sort of thing to persuade mass audiences. I bet that report is pretty long and dry reading. Wonder how many people get through it.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
53,144
47,345
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Given the strong possibility that a single stringer would fail to down a 747, you'd want to use multiples. Unlike sophisticated SAM equipment, terrorists could have any number of stingers. We supplied them in bulk to the Afghani resistance in the 1980's to help down Soviet attack copters, and IIRC these things are frequently sold by international arms dealers. A terrorist plot to down a 747 with a single stinger, if true, means a very foolish terrorist who just got it right on the money.

Also, I have to wonder how visible such a small missile would have been to all those witnesses. I submit that if this was indeed a missile it quite likely was a lot larger than a stinger.

TWA 800's flight profile would have made it very difficult to nigh impossible to hit with a Stinger. There are Russian made MANPADS that technically have the altitude to do it but hitting a climbing target already at altitude doing several hundred knots not necessarily in a favorable direction is reaching. Even still they are all IR guided so they'll go after the heat sources (engines) and you would be seeing clear damage on the engines and underside of wing.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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TWA 800's flight profile would have made it very difficult to nigh impossible to hit with a Stinger. There are Russian made MANPADS that technically have the altitude to do it but hitting a climbing target already at altitude doing several hundred knots not necessarily in a favorable direction is reaching. Even still they are all IR guided so they'll go after the heat sources (engines) and you would be seeing clear damage on the engines and underside of wing.

Well, obviously I agree that a stinger was not an ideal choice to down a commercial plane at altitude. AFAIK terrorists have tried to use them near airports to catch them while they're low and slow but it hasn't succeeded.

Since you seem to know something about this weapon, do you happen to know how visible it would be to onlookers?
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
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Well, obviously I agree that a stinger was not an ideal choice to down a commercial plane at altitude. AFAIK terrorists have tried to use them near airports to catch them while they're low and slow but it hasn't succeeded.

Since you seem to know something about this weapon, do you happen to know how visible it would be to onlookers?

I have to imagine at night you'd see it going up?
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
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Possibly, dunno. Here's what one looks like from up close, in flight.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...aAei7igL2tIC4Cw&sqi=2&ved=0CDwQ9QEwAQ&dur=661

Does not look like main ignition has started yet in that photo. Consider the Javelin, where ignition does not start until 10 yards or so after leaving the tube. Probably done to allow it to be fired from more confined spaces and to protect the launchee.

Anyway, in the documentary they discussed a test the Army performed with three different missiles using three different groups of people from different distances. It looks like it was performed during the day even, and if they are telling the truth, every person saw each missile.