New Cuba Thread

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Xavier434
The resort towns are meant to look 10 times better than the real Cuba. Many Cubans are not even allowed to be in those towns in order for them to look pretty for all of the outsiders. It is disgusting.

Mexican Resorts any different?

What? Mexicans are allowed in resort towns.

You don't have to support Cuba just because Americans do not. Behavior like that led to the Canadian slave trade in Sudan in the 1990s.

Predictable as always.

 

[StageLeft]

Their political system is a fvcking mess obviously and I do agree that the US boycotts on them are completely imbecilic, like a stubborn ass who won't admit he's wrong. Just drop them already.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Xavier434
The resort towns are meant to look 10 times better than the real Cuba. Many Cubans are not even allowed to be in those towns in order for them to look pretty for all of the outsiders. It is disgusting.

Mexican Resorts any different?

What? Mexicans are allowed in resort towns.

You don't have to support Cuba just because Americans do not. Behavior like that led to the Canadian slave trade in Sudan in the 1990s.

Predictable as always.

Predictable as always.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
LOL at those who pretend to give shit about the Cubans. You guys would be the first to bitch if your neighborhood was over run by Cuban Immigrants moving in.

Hey, at least Cuban food is way better than Mexican food.

 

[RedChief]

One thing to remember is that when Che was head of Cuba National Bank in 1960, he asked for the embargo.

"In order to conquer something we have to take it away from somebody. That something we must conquer is the country's sovereignty. It has to be taken away from that something...." - Che 3/23/60

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Personally I couldn't vacation in an oppressive dictatorship, but some democracies probably aren't too much better. I guess living as a peasant under a monarch desensitizes that stuff to you though.

I actually look at the Queen as "two heads are better than one". :light:

Redundancy.

She's never actually been used, so hopefully that means our government hasn't tried to do anything overly stupid.

I wouldn't mind if she stepped in re: Afghanistan at this point.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Veradero is a resort town. I hope you're not trying to generalize based on that.

The U.S. government deserves to be bashed for not letting its citizens go to Cuba. Let the Cubans worry about their sucky government.

You assume that I've been to Varadero and that's it. My wife has described Havana to me and some of the poverty she saw, but really it doesn't sound much different from the homeless problem we have here in Toronto.

Only in Toronto, the homeless don't have to worry about being locked up if they bitch about the gov't. If you meant it when you said "I hold freedom as a core value", then the difference between being in poor in Toronto and poor in Havana is huge.

I work two blocks from the White House, and I can personally assure you that every day of the year, there are protestors of some sort in Lafayette Park across the street from the White House denouncing Bush and the U.S. gov't. Sometimes they're even foreigners. There's one couple that's essentially been living in the park as part of an ongoing anti-nuke peace vigil since approx. 1984. As far as I know, they've never been arrested, because they're still there. Try doing that in front of Castro's place in Cuba, and let me know how it goes. If freedom were truly a "core value" with you, I don't think you'd be so full of praise for Cuba.

I hold several core values and freedom is but one of them.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: DanceMan
And there is much difference between poor and rich Cuba, just like any other society. And to think that their life is compleatly paid for by the government is not true. They get healthcare and pretty good early education, and that's about it.

Under communism where inheritance is illegal, how does one become "rich"? My wife and I spent around $100 on tips during our week, and those probably went to at least 15-20 people.

Is there a private sector in Cuba?

Do people get rich on the black market selling cigars?

With all due respect, what you're saying doesn't make much sense to me. Have you been to Cuba? The quality of life I witnessed was quite consistent throughout my travels.

I was told that all of their higher education costs, food, and clothing are paid for by the government. Like I said, they have their life covered and they get $10/month spending money. I'm not sure why we have this conflicting information. How much does university cost in Cuba?

Are you smoking crack? Seriously. Some sort of wacky Cuban cigars? Because there's no way you're so naive as to think that because there are rules against inheritance, people aren't rich. There is no private sector, and the black market is fairly limited in scope, but the men who control the market in Cuba are very very wealthy. They're members of the Communist party. They aren't held to the same rules as everyone else. They aren't held to any rules at all (you do realize Cuba still imprisons, tortures and executes political dissidents, right?) And they live like kings while the rest of the Cubans can't afford telephones or televisions.

Fuck yeah, communism is the shit... if you're the one in charge.

Capitalism is also the shit if you're the one in charge. The same goes for a corporation. A monarchy. A dictatorship. Shall we continue?

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Kntx
Cuba thread summary:

Person who has been to Cuba: "It's not all that bad, kinda nice!"
American: "Cuba is the devil!!!! Devil Cuba die!!!"

:heart:

:beer:

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: RedChief
One thing to remember is that when Che was head of Cuba National Bank in 1960, he asked for the embargo.

"In order to conquer something we have to take it away from somebody. That something we must conquer is the country's sovereignty. It has to be taken away from that something...." - Che 3/23/60

And in a sense he gave Cuba autonomy.

He also eliminated the corrupt gangster regime that was in charge before he and Castro came in.

He gave his life for what he believed in and for that I respect him. What I do not respect is the level of propaganda in Cuba promoting his image. I've never met the man and history is written by the victors.

 

[DanceMan]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: DanceMan
And there is much difference between poor and rich Cuba, just like any other society. And to think that their life is compleatly paid for by the government is not true. They get healthcare and pretty good early education, and that's about it.

Under communism where inheritance is illegal, how does one become "rich"? My wife and I spent around $100 on tips during our week, and those probably went to at least 15-20 people.

Is there a private sector in Cuba?

Do people get rich on the black market selling cigars?

With all due respect, what you're saying doesn't make much sense to me. Have you been to Cuba? The quality of life I witnessed was quite consistent throughout my travels.

I was told that all of their higher education costs, food, and clothing are paid for by the government. Like I said, they have their life covered and they get $10/month spending money. I'm not sure why we have this conflicting information. How much does university cost in Cuba?

I'm a little late replying to your question -- but yes, I've been to Cuba. TWICE. But, it has been awhile (around 2000 was the last time I went). I would go more, but my government dosn't make it easy for me to do that! I have stayed in Havana and taken the bus (the camels!) from there to Cienfuegos and stayed for weeks, and also to Santa Clara. I didn't stay at the resorts at all, and frankly, when you do this, it's a poor way to get to know the people of the country. I stayed in a local house (casa particulars).

Being black, and having my Spanish not be too bad, I may have a different perspective than you did on Cuba. It is against the law for the locals to be seen 'interacting' with the tourist, so if you look clearly like you're not a Cuban, they do tend to shy away from you. However, I pretty much fit in, and I got to hear and see a whole lot, probably much more than the government would like me to know.

Basically, you're rich in Cuba same as anywhere else: Having connections, especially government connections. I didn't see directly where the government paid directly for their food and clothes. What I did see (and do) was go with the caretaker of my house and we bought daily food for her family and went to the store to buy some clothes, with some of the money they earned from the house rental (which, they didn't own, but a local doctor did, who, of course was well connected). Actually, how this 'private sector' renting started was that Castro relented, because there was much suffering among the people after the Soviet downfall, and Castro wanted to avoid at least angry citizens. Cubans can recieve a food ration, but it's pretty meager, and it's not enough to get you by, and many shun it because the food is such poor quality. If you heard that at a resort that the government gives them all the food and clothing they need, folks are often told to tell you things like that.

And, yep, there's is a black market for cigars. They don't get rich (too much competition), but remember, it all about making a living, and trying to get ahold of those dollars.

As for education, the caretaker lady (actually a young woman) was smart as a whip, and very hard working. I asked her about going to college, and she told me she could not do it, because it did take some money, and that she needed to keep working for the family, and she seemed quite bitter about it.

And if you talk to Cubans, especially young ones, I was pretty much struck with their outright disgust for Castro and his policies. I was surprised how many people wanted to talk about Cuban politics, and their hope for change. One such case was the Elian Gonzales case, when they said that they were told to demostrate for Elian to come home for the TV cameras, but everyone secretly hoped he could stay in the US.

And make no mistake, it is an opressive, communist regime. I saw personally people arrested for breaking that tourist 'association' law, and if it was your second or third arrest, you could spend some time (months even years). Also, cars (including taxis and private cars I was riding in) got pulled over by the police routinely. Never had a problem personally, just told them I was a musician studying Afro-Cuban music, and when they saw my American passport, it was like a magic amulet or something.

But, to be fair, there was a lot of good. The people were very warm, and always willing to share. Even in fairly large towns, people all seemed to know each other. They told me great stories. They are some of the most resourceful, non-wasteful people I have ever met. When I came back a 2nd time, the lady showed me that she had kept the Pringles can that I thrown away in the trash the first time I was there! Also, it's very much like being stuck in the 1950's, with the old cars and architecture, girls riding side-saddle on bikes, and people going door-to-door delivering milk, vegtables, etc. every day. And a very close sense of family and community.

Sorry for the long reply, but just wanted to get my point across.

 

[SickBeast]

How do you know I'm not black?

How do you know my perspective would be any different than yours based solely on skin colour?

My hair is mostly brown if that helps.

Your response is interesting in that the person who allowed my wife into their home no longer works at the resort. I hope they are ok.

I would have loved to have seen the expression on the officer's face when you showed him your passport.

In your opinion, how do the barriers to higher education compare between the US and Cuba? Where is it easier to become a medical doctor, for example?

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Sinsear
Marked for later. (i've got to dig up the other Cuba is paradise thread).

Edit: I see you've had it deleted. Shame. So much pwnage.

The only pwnage you have on me right now is the fact that the Yankees are a better baseball team than the Blue Jays.

$$$$$

We'll be back and you guys can fly our flag upside down all you want. :Q

:beer:

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: DanceMan
Sorry for the long reply, but just wanted to get my point across.

No need to apologize - thanks for bringing some of the unvarnished truth.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Kntx
Cuba thread summary:

Person who has been to Cuba: "It's not all that bad, kinda nice!"
American: "Cuba is the devil!!!! Devil Cuba die!!!"

:heart:

:beer:

I like how both of you completely ignore how the Cuban people feel, you know, the ones that have to actually live there.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: DanceMan
And there is much difference between poor and rich Cuba, just like any other society. And to think that their life is compleatly paid for by the government is not true. They get healthcare and pretty good early education, and that's about it.

Under communism where inheritance is illegal, how does one become "rich"? My wife and I spent around $100 on tips during our week, and those probably went to at least 15-20 people.

Is there a private sector in Cuba?

Do people get rich on the black market selling cigars?

With all due respect, what you're saying doesn't make much sense to me. Have you been to Cuba? The quality of life I witnessed was quite consistent throughout my travels.

I was told that all of their higher education costs, food, and clothing are paid for by the government. Like I said, they have their life covered and they get $10/month spending money. I'm not sure why we have this conflicting information. How much does university cost in Cuba?

Are you smoking crack? Seriously. Some sort of wacky Cuban cigars? Because there's no way you're so naive as to think that because there are rules against inheritance, people aren't rich. There is no private sector, and the black market is fairly limited in scope, but the men who control the market in Cuba are very very wealthy. They're members of the Communist party. They aren't held to the same rules as everyone else. They aren't held to any rules at all (you do realize Cuba still imprisons, tortures and executes political dissidents, right?) And they live like kings while the rest of the Cubans can't afford telephones or televisions.

Fuck yeah, communism is the shit... if you're the one in charge.

Capitalism is also the shit if you're the one in charge. The same goes for a corporation. A monarchy. A dictatorship. Shall we continue?

Yes, we shall. Capitalism is also the shit if you're in the middle class. It's also pretty damn good for the poor. Can you say the same for communism and a monarchy?

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: DanceMan
And there is much difference between poor and rich Cuba, just like any other society. And to think that their life is compleatly paid for by the government is not true. They get healthcare and pretty good early education, and that's about it.

Under communism where inheritance is illegal, how does one become "rich"? My wife and I spent around $100 on tips during our week, and those probably went to at least 15-20 people.

Is there a private sector in Cuba?

Do people get rich on the black market selling cigars?

With all due respect, what you're saying doesn't make much sense to me. Have you been to Cuba? The quality of life I witnessed was quite consistent throughout my travels.

I was told that all of their higher education costs, food, and clothing are paid for by the government. Like I said, they have their life covered and they get $10/month spending money. I'm not sure why we have this conflicting information. How much does university cost in Cuba?

Are you smoking crack? Seriously. Some sort of wacky Cuban cigars? Because there's no way you're so naive as to think that because there are rules against inheritance, people aren't rich. There is no private sector, and the black market is fairly limited in scope, but the men who control the market in Cuba are very very wealthy. They're members of the Communist party. They aren't held to the same rules as everyone else. They aren't held to any rules at all (you do realize Cuba still imprisons, tortures and executes political dissidents, right?) And they live like kings while the rest of the Cubans can't afford telephones or televisions.

Fuck yeah, communism is the shit... if you're the one in charge.

Capitalism is also the shit if you're the one in charge. The same goes for a corporation. A monarchy. A dictatorship. Shall we continue?

Yes, we shall. Capitalism is also the shit if you're in the middle class. It's also pretty damn good for the poor. Can you say the same for communism and a monarchy?

Of course he can since the shiny brochures and nice people in the resort town told him so.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: SickBeast
We'll see how well this flies this time around.

I got in this Sunday from a week in Varadero at a 4-star resort. We witnessed tropical storm Fay which was pretty interesting.

To be honest, what is happening there politically did bother me quite a bit this trip. The fact that the Cuban people are not allowed to leave the island really does hit a nerve within me. I hold freedom as a core value, and that aspect of their society caused me some moral friction.
Freedom aside, the Cuban people looked very healthy and they have an absolutely magnificent culture; one which is truly unmatched by all of my travels worldwide.

Again I had a lovely trip. What struck me as interesting was the fact that the US boycotts them while committing war crimes on their soil at Guantanamo Bay. What happened in 1959 is also quite fascinating. I'm curious as to how and why the elite there left so quietly.

The fact that I as an American citizen am not allowed by the US government to visit Cuba bothers me quite a bit. Does it bother you?
I can visit communist China or Vietnam. WTF

Apparently the boycott circles around the sugar cane exports of Cuba; for whatever reason the US government is concerned that it would disrupt their economy.

The boycott doesn't bother me; I just got back from there. I'm Canadian. You guys re-elected Bush (unless Diebold did) and it's your own problem at this point. If you want the boycott lifted, lobby your government. The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

To be honest, as a Canadian I like the boycott. Most of the institutional stuff in Cuba was built by Canadians, and no offense intended, but it's nice to be able to visit a place where there are no Americans (just for a break; it's nothing personal).

I can only imagine what would happen to Cuba if the boycott were to be lifted. The place would become overdeveloped and overrun by American tourists.

Awesome. America bashing round 2.

You need to sew up your leaky butt-hole, you whiny little shit.

What's wrong with you? People are going to be pointing out the bad in their nation forever, it's what happens. They point it out until it gets fixed, then the point something new out.

Your butt-hurt is pathetic.

 

[KIRBYEE]

I don't understand socialism. Makes no sense at all.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Xavier434
The resort towns are meant to look 10 times better than the real Cuba. Many Cubans are not even allowed to be in those towns in order for them to look pretty for all of the outsiders. It is disgusting.

Mexican Resorts any different?

I have no idea. What does that have to do with Cuba though?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Xavier434
The resort towns are meant to look 10 times better than the real Cuba. Many Cubans are not even allowed to be in those towns in order for them to look pretty for all of the outsiders. It is disgusting.

Mexican Resorts any different?

I have no idea. What does that have to do with Cuba though?

Quite a bit. Most of the criticisms can be applied to Mexico or practically any other Central/South American Nation.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Xavier434
The resort towns are meant to look 10 times better than the real Cuba. Many Cubans are not even allowed to be in those towns in order for them to look pretty for all of the outsiders. It is disgusting.

Mexican Resorts any different?

I have no idea. What does that have to do with Cuba though?

Quite a bit. Most of the criticisms can be applied to Mexico or practically any other Central/South American Nation.

And? This thread is about how wonderful Cuba is, not about how wonderful Mexico is. Make a thread about your vacation to some resort town in Mexico, and that now you are somehow qualified to speak on behalf of all Mexicans and that you want to let the world know how wonderful Mexico is, and I'm sure you'll get mostly the same criticism.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Xavier434
The resort towns are meant to look 10 times better than the real Cuba. Many Cubans are not even allowed to be in those towns in order for them to look pretty for all of the outsiders. It is disgusting.

Mexican Resorts any different?

I have no idea. What does that have to do with Cuba though?

Quite a bit. Most of the criticisms can be applied to Mexico or practically any other Central/South American Nation.

And? This thread is about how wonderful Cuba is, not about how wonderful Mexico is. Make a thread about your vacation to some resort town in Mexico, and that now you are somehow qualified to speak on behalf of all Mexicans and that you want to let the world know how wonderful Mexico is, and I'm sure you'll get mostly the same criticism.

And what? You don't think that criticisms of Cuba being the same as criticisms against any of its' neighbours has any pertinance? Sorry to rain on your parade, but it does.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Xavier434
The resort towns are meant to look 10 times better than the real Cuba. Many Cubans are not even allowed to be in those towns in order for them to look pretty for all of the outsiders. It is disgusting.

Mexican Resorts any different?

I have no idea. What does that have to do with Cuba though?

Quite a bit. Most of the criticisms can be applied to Mexico or practically any other Central/South American Nation.

And? This thread is about how wonderful Cuba is, not about how wonderful Mexico is. Make a thread about your vacation to some resort town in Mexico, and that now you are somehow qualified to speak on behalf of all Mexicans and that you want to let the world know how wonderful Mexico is, and I'm sure you'll get mostly the same criticism.

And what? You don't think that criticisms of Cuba being the same as criticisms against any of its' neighbours has any pertinance? Sorry to rain on your parade, but it does.

Has the OP been ranting and raving over Mexico or Cuba? What is your point? Yes, you can criticize Mexico for being a shitty, repressive country just like you can Cuba. Do you disagree that Cuba is a shit hole and that the OP is just a bit naive in thinking that it's a wonderful country after having been there a few times on vacation?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Xavier434
The resort towns are meant to look 10 times better than the real Cuba. Many Cubans are not even allowed to be in those towns in order for them to look pretty for all of the outsiders. It is disgusting.

Mexican Resorts any different?

I have no idea. What does that have to do with Cuba though?

Quite a bit. Most of the criticisms can be applied to Mexico or practically any other Central/South American Nation.

And? This thread is about how wonderful Cuba is, not about how wonderful Mexico is. Make a thread about your vacation to some resort town in Mexico, and that now you are somehow qualified to speak on behalf of all Mexicans and that you want to let the world know how wonderful Mexico is, and I'm sure you'll get mostly the same criticism.

And what? You don't think that criticisms of Cuba being the same as criticisms against any of its' neighbours has any pertinance? Sorry to rain on your parade, but it does.

Has the OP been ranting and raving over Mexico or Cuba? What is your point? Yes, you can criticize Mexico for being a shitty, repressive country just like you can Cuba. Do you disagree that Cuba is a shit hole and that the OP is just a bit naive in thinking that it's a wonderful country after having been there a few times on vacation?

I don't know if it's a "shithole". Just saying that it's not much different than its' neighbours. It certainly compares well against its' neighbours on many criteria and not so well in others. You just can't criticize it as if what's the Norm in that Region of the World is only unique to Cuba though.