Potentially. Have you ever spoken to someone who's lived in Russia while it was an economic superpower?
IMO the artisans could have been considered a "middle class" under monarchy.
IMO the artisans could have been considered a "middle class" under monarchy.
As a fellow Canadian, I have to echo that last statement. Nothing against Americans, but it is refreshing to goto a tourist resort not dominated by visitors from the US.
I don't expect the majority of the posters here to understand that, but I expect the vast majority of Canadians would atleast understand my point of view, if not echo the sentiment.
JD50
Lifer
- Sep 4, 2005
- 11,640
- 2,034
- 126
Potentially. Have you ever spoken to someone who's lived in Russia while it was an economic superpower?
IMO the artisans could have been considered a "middle class" under monarchy.
[/quote]
You're the most naive person that I've ever come across, I actually feel bad for you now, so I'll refrain from making fun of you. Have a good night.
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Pretty much every nation in the Caribbean is a banana republic of one sort or another. The living standard in Cuba is probably among the best, if not the best, in Latin America aside from perhaps Brazil.
I needed a vacation.
Human rights are only one part of the equation.
As Infohawk said, by giving the Cuban people money while I was there, in a sense I am empowering them to free themselves.
If you look back historically, when things have gotten bad enough, the populace has revolted, time and time again. If I were Cuban, I'm not sure I would revolt. They seem to do ok; they're poor but they have life's necessities. Their government says that they can't leave the island, but there are ways, such as marrying a foreigner or building a nice and fast boat.
I hope you are kidding here. I can name several countries off hand that have a much higher standard of living than Cuba: Argentina, Uruguay, Mexico, Panama, Venezuela and Chile. I have been to or lived in all of those countries except for Chile. Furthermore, the lack of economic freedom in Cuba (as well as high prices) mean that the average Joe in Cuba certainly has less of an ability to prosper than individuals in those other countries (even Venezuela). About the only thing that Cuba has going for it that makes it less miserable is that it has a state-funded healthcare and education system. In fact, without those government subsidies, Cuba would have one of the lowest standards of livings in Latin America.
There are plenty of decent democracies in Latin America. I am certainly not opposed to lifting the Cuban embargo (it should have been done a long time ago). Yes, U.S. policy has fucked Cuba in a variety of ways pre-dating Castro, and it largely continues today. However, the Cuban people do not have a choice in the matter. They do not have the freedom to demand change or improve their economic situation.
Canadians are (typically) too polite to say anything rude to someone they dislike, unless things get real bad.
Just googleCanadians dislike Americans and you'll see lots of results.
I don't dislike or hate Americans or but the environment in the US is too stifling for my liking.
Couple of misc web posts here and there for you:
http://www.canuckabroad.com/fo...-americans-vt2075.html
http://www.stormfront.org/foru...e-americans-56777.html
I didn't ask a single person what their nationality was while I was on the trip.
There probably were a bunch of Americans there and I didn't even realize it.
I can see why Cuba would be a sore spot for an American; Varadero (AFAIK) was paid for and built in large part by Americans.
Perhaps you shouldn't take the revolution so personally and just let it go. Even if they point another missile at you, let it go; hopefully NASA can blow it up or figure out a way to intercept and deactivate it first.
There probably were a bunch of Americans there and I didn't even realize it.
I can see why Cuba would be a sore spot for an American; Varadero (AFAIK) was paid for and built in large part by Americans.
Perhaps you shouldn't take the revolution so personally and just let it go. Even if they point another missile at you, let it go; hopefully NASA can blow it up or figure out a way to intercept and deactivate it first.
Have you been to Cuba?Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Pretty much every nation in the Caribbean is a banana republic of one sort or another. The living standard in Cuba is probably among the best, if not the best, in Latin America aside from perhaps Brazil.
I needed a vacation.
Human rights are only one part of the equation.
As Infohawk said, by giving the Cuban people money while I was there, in a sense I am empowering them to free themselves.
If you look back historically, when things have gotten bad enough, the populace has revolted, time and time again. If I were Cuban, I'm not sure I would revolt. They seem to do ok; they're poor but they have life's necessities. Their government says that they can't leave the island, but there are ways, such as marrying a foreigner or building a nice and fast boat.
I hope you are kidding here. I can name several countries off hand that have a much higher standard of living than Cuba: Argentina, Uruguay, Mexico, Panama, Venezuela and Chile. I have been to or lived in all of those countries except for Chile. Furthermore, the lack of economic freedom in Cuba (as well as high prices) mean that the average Joe in Cuba certainly has less of an ability to prosper than individuals in those other countries (even Venezuela). About the only thing that Cuba has going for it that makes it less miserable is that it has a state-funded healthcare and education system. In fact, without those government subsidies, Cuba would have one of the lowest standards of livings in Latin America.
There are plenty of decent democracies in Latin America. I am certainly not opposed to lifting the Cuban embargo (it should have been done a long time ago). Yes, U.S. policy has fucked Cuba in a variety of ways pre-dating Castro, and it largely continues today. However, the Cuban people do not have a choice in the matter. They do not have the freedom to demand change or improve their economic situation.
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Have you been to Cuba?Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Pretty much every nation in the Caribbean is a banana republic of one sort or another. The living standard in Cuba is probably among the best, if not the best, in Latin America aside from perhaps Brazil.
I needed a vacation.
Human rights are only one part of the equation.
As Infohawk said, by giving the Cuban people money while I was there, in a sense I am empowering them to free themselves.
If you look back historically, when things have gotten bad enough, the populace has revolted, time and time again. If I were Cuban, I'm not sure I would revolt. They seem to do ok; they're poor but they have life's necessities. Their government says that they can't leave the island, but there are ways, such as marrying a foreigner or building a nice and fast boat.
I hope you are kidding here. I can name several countries off hand that have a much higher standard of living than Cuba: Argentina, Uruguay, Mexico, Panama, Venezuela and Chile. I have been to or lived in all of those countries except for Chile. Furthermore, the lack of economic freedom in Cuba (as well as high prices) mean that the average Joe in Cuba certainly has less of an ability to prosper than individuals in those other countries (even Venezuela). About the only thing that Cuba has going for it that makes it less miserable is that it has a state-funded healthcare and education system. In fact, without those government subsidies, Cuba would have one of the lowest standards of livings in Latin America.
There are plenty of decent democracies in Latin America. I am certainly not opposed to lifting the Cuban embargo (it should have been done a long time ago). Yes, U.S. policy has fucked Cuba in a variety of ways pre-dating Castro, and it largely continues today. However, the Cuban people do not have a choice in the matter. They do not have the freedom to demand change or improve their economic situation.
No I have not. As soon as I get a Colombian passport I will, though. Right now, I am not too keen on paying for multiple flights just to circumvent the stupid embargo. Whether I've been there or not (and I do know quite a lot of people who have been there) doesn't change the fact that Cuba's GDP per capita and standard of living is lower than the countries I listed.
Cuban's have learned to get by with a lot less, and the gap between the rich and the poor there is quite low, but their overall standard of living pales in comparison to many countries in Latin America. I will also tell you that I have studied Cuba extensively (dating back from when the U.S. loved to invade them and depose their governments and tax them to death) all the way to current times. I watched an interesting interview with Casto (the Oliver Stone one) just the other night. I am no Cuba hater by any means, but the facts are the facts. Do not confuse what little you've seen or heard with the actual economic realities of the place. It is a beautiful country with great people, but it is still an extremely poor nation that lags behind its peers in growth due to the U.S. embargo and the Cuban Communist system.
We Americans aren't the ones who were wronged, the Cuban people were, by the pre-Castro era.
Check out the recently released "Havana Nocturne" for the history of the Batista era, how the Cuban people were treated terribly and why they were wanting a revolution.
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,563
- 9
- 81
Like the idiot he is, the OP assumes that any Americans who disagree with him that Cuba is an unspoiled paradise with the happiest, most beautiful, most talented people on earth hate the country and support the embargo.
News flash fucktard, just because we don't kiss the feet of third world dictators doesn't mean we hate an entire country.
It's like talking to a 12 year old, everything is black and white to this asshole. Either we agree with him that Cuba is perfect or we hate it. What a moron.
News flash fucktard, just because we don't kiss the feet of third world dictators doesn't mean we hate an entire country.
It's like talking to a 12 year old, everything is black and white to this asshole. Either we agree with him that Cuba is perfect or we hate it. What a moron.
I will tell you that you are less likely to contract a communicable disease in Cuba than pretty much anywhere in the southern hemisphere this side of the Atlantic or Pacific.Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Have you been to Cuba?Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Pretty much every nation in the Caribbean is a banana republic of one sort or another. The living standard in Cuba is probably among the best, if not the best, in Latin America aside from perhaps Brazil.
I needed a vacation.
Human rights are only one part of the equation.
As Infohawk said, by giving the Cuban people money while I was there, in a sense I am empowering them to free themselves.
If you look back historically, when things have gotten bad enough, the populace has revolted, time and time again. If I were Cuban, I'm not sure I would revolt. They seem to do ok; they're poor but they have life's necessities. Their government says that they can't leave the island, but there are ways, such as marrying a foreigner or building a nice and fast boat.
I hope you are kidding here. I can name several countries off hand that have a much higher standard of living than Cuba: Argentina, Uruguay, Mexico, Panama, Venezuela and Chile. I have been to or lived in all of those countries except for Chile. Furthermore, the lack of economic freedom in Cuba (as well as high prices) mean that the average Joe in Cuba certainly has less of an ability to prosper than individuals in those other countries (even Venezuela). About the only thing that Cuba has going for it that makes it less miserable is that it has a state-funded healthcare and education system. In fact, without those government subsidies, Cuba would have one of the lowest standards of livings in Latin America.
There are plenty of decent democracies in Latin America. I am certainly not opposed to lifting the Cuban embargo (it should have been done a long time ago). Yes, U.S. policy has fucked Cuba in a variety of ways pre-dating Castro, and it largely continues today. However, the Cuban people do not have a choice in the matter. They do not have the freedom to demand change or improve their economic situation.
No I have not. As soon as I get a Colombian passport I will, though. Right now, I am not too keen on paying for multiple flights just to circumvent the stupid embargo. Whether I've been there or not (and I do know quite a lot of people who have been there) doesn't change the fact that Cuba's GDP per capita and standard of living is lower than the countries I listed.
Cuban's have learned to get by with a lot less, and the gap between the rich and the poor there is quite low, but their overall standard of living pales in comparison to many countries in Latin America. I will also tell you that I have studied Cuba extensively (dating back from when the U.S. loved to invade them and depose their governments and tax them to death) all the way to current times. I watched an interesting interview with Casto (the Oliver Stone one) just the other night. I am no Cuba hater by any means, but the facts are the facts. Do not confuse what little you've seen or heard with the actual economic realities of the place. It is a beautiful country with great people, but it is still an extremely poor nation that lags behind its peers in growth due to the U.S. embargo and the Cuban Communist system.
You are also very likely to run into educated people there.
I honestly don't think you're qualified to tell us what Cuba is like until you go there. I was personally shocked the first time I went there. I had a completely different picture of reality before I went.
We are shaped by our experiences and what we see, do, and hear. The media really is a powerful tool (and so is government propaganda).
If you're only listening to people who left and didn't like it there, what do you expect to hear? Do you expect them to tell you how much they regret leaving, and how they want to go back but can't? Probably not. They didn't like it there and in their eyes they had reason to leave. Talking about the good is probably painful for them as they no longer have it.
IMO Cuba is the greatest banana republic in the Caribbean.
Really when you think of it, what can these islands produce, and how many people live on them?
I'm personally floored that the 13 million Cubans live as well as they do. Their exports are quality, and their people are quality. I come away impressed each time I go there.
I have heard Barbados is nice. Perhaps I'll go there next and post a thread with some thoughts.
Which has nothing to do with standard of living, but rather the government's focus on health care. Healthcare is but one minor component of the standard of living of a country. What about economic and social development or freedom? What about access to markets with varied choices? What about the ability to communicate freely and cheaply? You cannot deny that the Cuban government has sharply limited imports of technology, automobiles, and millions of other normal daily products that are found in Latin Households all over the world. I have never said that Cubans cannot do more with less or that they live in abject poverty and mud huts. I am pointing out reality which is that their standard of living is not that high for Latin America. Until you have some actual figures or facts to prove something to the contrary my stance remains the same. Look at their GDP per capita, economic and press freedom indices, or even what a typical Latin family has in relation to a typical Cuban family. Once you can get past your emotional bias you will be able to look at this in an objective manner.
You think that because you have visited a few resort areas or households (who gladly took your convertible peso and used it to buy real food instead of the typical rice, beans, and a bit of meat) that you know how Cubans live when you are not around them. Most of that delicious Cuban food you ate is only available to those in the state government or tourists. Your average Cuban rarely -- if ever -- eats that way. Make a real connection with the people and get them to tell you the truth. Their choices for diet and normal everyday products is extremely limited.
And I never said you were not. I have not criticized Cuba's educational system nor the healthcare system. We are speaking solely about the standard of living there vs. the rest of Latin America. Having a highly educated populace does not mean that your standard of living is higher than that of another country. Your point is a non sequitur. Many Latin countries have poor education systems but through natural resources, trade, larger markets, and sheer population they have a higher standard of living than Cuba.
I've been to -- and lived in -- a lot more of Latin America than you have, and I speak Spanish. I am pretty sure my understanding our Latin America and its standard of living is predicated on a lot more substance than your few casual visits to resort areas of Cuba. Simply because I choose to got to other places instead of Cuba does not preclude me from being informed on their history, standard of living, and reality. Would you actually argue that some dumb beloved patriot that has visited Cancun a couple of times knows more about the standard of living in Mexico than someone who has extensively studied it -- or better yet -- someone who has family and friends that live there yet has not been because they were not born there? Visiting a resort a few times and making a few day trips into the outskirts of the resort area hardly qualifies you to speak about Cuban policy OR their standard of living in relation to the rest of Latin America.
Which again has nothing to do with me nor this thread. You are creating strawmen about what you THINK that I am saying or what I think not the actual reality of what we are discussing.
Again, I am not sure why you are creating a strawman about what I said. I never said my experience was with Cuban exiles or people who have left. You are creating a delusional fantasy about what you THINK is my experience. I have studied at Universities with Cubans in Latin America as well as meeting and talking with quite a few overseas who still LIVE in Cuba but were away on business or vacation.
Seriously, go argue with someone else. You are not even addressing what I have said. It is laughable that you would even attempt to say Brazil (a country with enormous wealth disparity and one of the highest GINIs among countries of the Western Hemispehere) is a country with a high standard of living. I have had quite frank discussion with Cubans (exile and non-exiles), and I have studied in, lived in, and visited enough of Latin America to be able to make a fair comparison of Cuba to the rest of it.
And if you knew anything about Cuba you'd know they are considerably poorer than they were generations ago and that their exports are a fraction of what the island used to produce. Look, I am not about to debate how fucked Cuba was by American policy or the amount of rich Cubans that completely screwed over the lower (and darker) classes. That is a given. The fact remains, however, that before Cuba switched to collective farming and state-run enterprises that the economy was much more varied and its usage of natural resources was much more efficient. Constant "expeditons" and American foreign policy snafus assured that their former riches remained in the hands of the elite which is the whole basis for why Batista got his ass-kicked and Castro was able to spark a big enough rebellion to take over the government and get the oligarchs out of town while enacting a complete social order change. The fact remains, however, that communism is a very poor idea for an economically isolated and island country.
Had Batista gotten thrown out and real democracy came into play, I have little doubt that Cuba would be one of the wealthiest countries in the Western Hemisphere. They had the infrastructure, education, natural resources, and foreign investment. Things did not play out that way, and you show a startling naivety by thinking that Cubans are now better off than they could have been -- or in many cases -- were.
You should explain a bit more about your trip because honestly if I hear someone went to a 4-star "resort" I don't think they've really been to that country. It's like people who say they've been to Jamaica because they got off the cruise ship and into some compound where they stayed for a few hours.
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