New AMD build - *budget* high performance gamer for 19x12

[Sylvanas]

Originally posted by: apoppin
OK, i got 550 X2 back into my PC and "roughed in" at 3906 MHz still using the 15.5 multiplier (253x15.5)
- it was 'almost' stable at 3937 but failed Everest stability test after a few minutes and at 3921 MHz after 1/2 hour

core temps are excellent ... everest reports 30s C under load [hyper n212 with 1-120 mm fan super-glued to the cooler ]
-can those low core temps be right?? Everest shows CPU as 46C [what is this temp different than the core? ]

The CPU voltage is 1.4 v {+0.1v}; all other voltage is raised by the smallest possible increment except DDR2 which is at 2.1 v
i left HT link on "auto" [what width do i set?]; HT frequency is 2277 [x9]
NB frequency is x9 = 2277

Where do i start? Adjusting the multiplier and fine tuning my clocks - then NB OC?
- this is fun for my first AMD CPU

Generally I find it easier to find the max possible Core frequency (3.9ghz in your case) and after that is established then go onto overclocking the NB / tweaking memory (I find low timings > high frequency memory- although this is dependent on motherboard/BIOS).

Keep HT link frequency at around 2ghz for now (16bit link width), and try to keep memory frequency around stock for now to eliminate the possibility for any instability that is not related to the core speed- or whatever your testing. It is for this reason I tend to think it's better to use just the multipliers for now which I recently posted about in this thread.

Why I say that adjusting the multipliers is better than HTT for overclocking is because with the multipliers you have may more control. With the HTT it comes stock at 200mhz, now for arguments sake let's say we up that to 230mhz. So now we have:

230 x 16 = 3680mhz Core Speed
230 x 10 = 2.3GHZ NB speed
230 x 10 = 2.3ghz HT frequency
2 (230 x 2) = 920mhz Memory frequency with the stock 1:2 divider.

That's 4 settings that have all been increased with the HTT. Now if something goes wrong, and we get instability- it could be any one of those settings that is the problem but we wouldn't know which one unless we changed the multipliers on each one and test individually which can take ages and even then, your results are not really indicative as a multiplier will reduce said frequency by 230mhz, which may be more than is required. So you are losing potential performance if you only need to drop down in reality by 10mhz for stability. Instead I propose adjusting each multiplier individually so what you'd end up with is something like this at stock and a little bump on the core speed only:

200 x 18 = 3600mhz Core speed
200 x 10 = 2ghz NB
200 x 10 = 2GHZ HT
2 (200x2) = 800mhz memory @ 1:2 divider.

So if anything is unstable you know for sure instantly that it is the Core that is unstable at that speed so you need only adjust that or apply a little more Vcore. So you can do this for CPU, NB, Memory and HT individually which will give you better results and the facts quicker than if you were to do it by HTT. Once you have the facts, you can tweak it later with perhaps a few mhz on the HTT.

On the X3, NB VID comes stock @ 1.2v and most people get around 2400mhz stable out of that, 2600 mhz requires anything from 1.25-1.4v generally.

 

[deputc26]

Hey guys, I got a Phenom II x3 unlocked with a 790x motherboard that ocs to 3.6ghz and a GTX260 192. I keep it at 3.2 Ghz for temps which is 50C at load on my Arctic Cooler 64 Pro

I'd like to see a sysmark score for your system, what res is your monitor?

 

[deputc26]

Originally posted by: apoppin

core temps are excellent ... everest reports 30s C under load [hyper n212 with 1-120 mm fan super-glued to the cooler ]
-can those low core temps be right?? Everest shows CPU as 46C [what is this temp different than the core? ]

Core temps on my 940 stopped working when I enabled ACC; 30 is low, 46 seems more like it but still a little low for 3.9ghz (though certainly possible, what is your room temp?).

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: deputc26

Originally posted by: apoppin

core temps are excellent ... everest reports 30s C under load [hyper n212 with 1-120 mm fan super-glued to the cooler ]
-can those low core temps be right?? Everest shows CPU as 46C [what is this temp different than the core? ]

Core temps on my 940 stopped working when I enabled ACC; 30 is low, 46 seems more like it but still a little low for 3.9ghz (though certainly possible, what is your room temp?).

ACC is not enabled in hybrid mode - it is set to "auto"; this is the dual core 550 X2 that does not unlock

This 30s goes up to 36C under Everest stability testing full load with Cooler Master Hyper N212
- i got low 50sC at 3.7 GHz with the stock cooler when i stopped using it

Ambient temps are high - very close to 80F and i am testing at 19x12 resolution [and 16x10]

What Sysmark tests do you want?
--i have Everest, FutureMark PC Vantage, SiSoftware's Sandra
.. probably others

 

[soccerballtux]

If you enable it per core (the working cores), supposedly you can achieve a higher clock.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
If you enable it per core (the working cores), supposedly you can achieve a higher clock.

so move it from auto but leave hybrid mode disabled ?

am i pretty much at the limit of my core 3.9 GHz; even thought the temps are relatively cool ?
- what would it take to push it over 4.0 GHz, considering that the +.1v boost to 1.4v is needed *now* ??

if this was an Intel CPU, i'd expect the temps to start moving way up with a voltage increase near the core's limit

 

[apoppin]

Quick question and some random thoughts for you guys

1. Do i want to OPTIMIZE each of my CPUs for the test? - i want this review to be *representative* of what Athlon/Phenom II can reasonably achieve by an ordinary 'end user' who dabbles in OC'ing

i did not specially tweak anything but voltage to get my q9550s to 4.0GHz and it appears that few Phenoms reach it that same way

2. Shall i leave it with the stock multi and do the SAME for 720 X3 and Athlon 250 X2

3. A "follow up" article makes sense - "Overclocking Phenom II and Athlon II for Performance" - where i can compare the stock OC with the more highly tweaked on in a step-by-step

What do you think of that?

 

[deputc26]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: deputc26

Originally posted by: apoppin

core temps are excellent ... everest reports 30s C under load [hyper n212 with 1-120 mm fan super-glued to the cooler ]
-can those low core temps be right?? Everest shows CPU as 46C [what is this temp different than the core? ]

Core temps on my 940 stopped working when I enabled ACC; 30 is low, 46 seems more like it but still a little low for 3.9ghz (though certainly possible, what is your room temp?).

ACC is not enabled in hybrid mode - it is set to "auto"; this is the dual core 550 X2 that does not unlock

This 30s goes up to 36C under Everest stability testing full load with Cooler Master Hyper N212
- i got low 50sC at 3.7 GHz with the stock cooler when i stopped using it

Ambient temps are high - very close to 80F and i am testing at 19x12 resolution [and 16x10]

What Sysmark tests do you want?
--i have Everest, FutureMark PC Vantage, SiSoftware's Sandra
.. probably others

Well if the temperature is rising with benchmarks maybe the dual is simply kicking out way less heat than the quads I'm used to (makes sense ) I was actually asking that other poster for sysmark scores as I'm sure whatever benches you run will give me a clear picture of your systems performance.

 

[apoppin]

Could be

that little Athlon II 250 X2 is a nice little O/C'er

3.96 GHz and relatively cool with hyper N212 [low 40s]
*stable* .. so far with everest

 

[geokilla]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Could be

that little Athlon II 250 X2 is a nice little O/C'er

3.96 GHz and relatively cool with hyper N212 [low 40s]
*stable* .. so far with everest

What bout OCCT or Linpack? Linpack made my E7200 hit 80C 10 minutes into the test lol. OCCT makes it top out at 55C....

Do you have a website? You should put the website in your sig if you do. I'm interested in the article that you're making.

 

[deputc26]

3.96 on a 64bit OS is impressive.... Just 40mhz more...

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: geokilla

Originally posted by: apoppin
Could be

that little Athlon II 250 X2 is a nice little O/C'er

3.96 GHz and relatively cool with hyper N212 [low 40s]
*stable* .. so far with everest

What bout OCCT or Linpack? Linpack made my E7200 hit 80C 10 minutes into the test lol. OCCT makes it top out at 55C....

Do you have a website? You should put the website in your sig if you do. I'm interested in the article that you're making.

Yes, i do have a website. My latest article is always linked to in my sig; just follow it to the main page.

i don't believe in either of these tests - nor Everest as a true indication of stability; it just roughs it in

And it appears by benchmarking my game suite, i have had to revise my OC down slightly another -15MHz.

Another issue that i have with OCCT is that it appears to be very thermal-related; my ambient temperatures (in the California high desert) are usually 80F - very hot to start with and most overclocks don't last even though the PC is completely stable otherwise
- imo opinion it is like running FurMark to overheat your Radeon

it doesn't need it, believe me. i prefer to have a system that is "game stable"; application stable - NO crashes - over a long time of benching and day to day gaming and use. i could jack the voltage more and get 4.0 GHz, but it is fine to test at 3.95 GHz
- later on, as part of this series i am working on [the first part should be up Sunday, btw], i will go for the extreme overclock [with Dual 120 MM fans on a ThermalRight UltraExtreme] to see really how much practical performance difference there is in gaming [i mostly just specialize in PC gaming and graphics; not so much the other tests - my fellow editors cover encoding and other areas of PC performance]

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: geokilla

Originally posted by: apoppin
Could be

that little Athlon II 250 X2 is a nice little O/C'er

3.96 GHz and relatively cool with hyper N212 [low 40s]
*stable* .. so far with everest

What bout OCCT or Linpack? Linpack made my E7200 hit 80C 10 minutes into the test lol. OCCT makes it top out at 55C....

Do you have a website? You should put the website in your sig if you do. I'm interested in the article that you're making.

See his sig-- he runs a review site-- alienbabeltech.com.
I never liked OCCT, IMO it's a joke of a stress test. Linpack is great. So is Orthos or Prime95. My rig is OCCT stable but hard rebooted on me in the middle of the night 2 days ago while I was encoding. I'll have to try 3.6 now (was 3.7) on OCCT-Linpack.

 

[apoppin]

the Phenom II 720 X3 is the worst Overclocker - it will only hit 3.5 GHz stable with .075v added .. i can get +14 MHz more with +.1v; try the next notch up and i end up resetting the CMOS

Here are the overclocks i finally got with my 4 CPUs:

Q9550S-4.0 GHz (2.83 GHz)

Phenom II 720-X3 3.5 GHz (2.8 GHz)

Phenom II 550-X2 3.896 GHz (3.1 GHz)

Athlon II 250-X2 3.915 GHz (3.0 GHz)


Testing is done with all stock speeds and overclocked speeds with 4870-X2 except for the 720 X3 which i am doing today

THEN - rinse and repeat for GTX 280
:Q

 

[richierich1212]

The 720 supposedly needs a lot more voltage to reach higher speeds. What's your NB voltage at?

 

[apoppin]

i have the CPU actually at 3.486 GHz
- i dropped it another increment - the core itself is unstable

the NB voltage is bumped up +.1 v [the minimum]; but it should not need any as it is not overclocked
--the CPU voltage is up to 1.425v .. a full .1v is required to stabilize it

 

[richierich1212]

Yeah apoppin, check out this thread on XS, the last page talks about the Gigabyte MA790X-UD4P and the 720.

Text

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: richierich1212
Yeah apoppin, check out this thread on XS, the last page talks about the Gigabyte MA790X-UD4P and the 720.

Text

thanks, but it does not seem to apply to me

the core becomes completely unstable at around 3.5 GHz
- temps are good; they only rise about 10C over idle

the NB and the and everything else is kept as close to stock as possible - only the minimum next increment up are used for voltages except for the VCORE which is +.1v to 1.425
.. adding 3/4s of a volt is not quite stable at 3.485 GHz and it will fail the Vantage CPU test

so it is what it is; i can get more .. but then we are talking about a serious overvolt
- no thanks .. that extra 100-200 MHz is not worth it to me

 

[Rhoxed]

ah, does seem like a dud ~_~

my 720 will do 3.8 @ 1.425 on 3 core and 3.85 @ 1.475 on 4 core

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rhoxed
ah, does seem like a dud ~_~

my 720 will do 3.8 @ 1.425 on 3 core and 3.85 @ 1.475 on 4 core

there is a reason that they did not bin mine higher
-- perhaps you got lucky; it appears that the X3s are not as reliable as X2s for overclocking

i am almost always "lucky" with Intel; i know why i have been an intel fan all these years

at any rate, i am satisfied to make a decent comparison with 2 'off the shelf' Phenom IIs and an Athlon II X2 from AMD [which overclocks the best, naturally]

 

[richierich1212]

So have you tried bumping up the cpu-nb vid to +.250 even though the NB is stock? My 550 likes cpu-nb vid +.250 and leaving NB at "normal"

 

[apoppin]

yes, i did overvolt - briefly - beyond what i consider safe (just to test)
- the NB will take an overclock from 2000MHz to 2240 or so; it is the core(s) that gets iffy when it gets around 3.5 GHz
- extra voltage to the cores would even give me a few MHz; enough to get 3.5 GHz stably - but who cares?

i can geclose enough for my review and it will give my readers an idea of what a "flop" in O/C'ing is like
[not bad, really - almost +700 'free' MHz :gift:]

iMO X3 bridges the gap in some games (WiC in particular) between the quads and the duals
- it is a very nice CPU for gaming on a budget - i paid $119 for it and you can get them for $99 now

In comparison, the Q9550 is $169 only at Microcenter and the intel mobos are a little more also; however, i would think one would get a higher O/C from q9550 overall unless all the good ones go to the 's' series now

EDIT:

some of what i wrote made no sense
- that is what i get for eating lunch at my PC while benching and writing at the same time


i AM overclocking to 3.5 GHz with an extra +.125v - just for the benchmarking
- because i can get it and temps are good

AFTER THAT, for me, i will drop back -14 MHz and lose .025v BUT i will overclock the NB as "compensation" [if it proves stable, which it appeared to be]

At any rate, Part 1 of my Value series should be up by Mon AM; i am still working on post processing my digital images of the build. Parts 2-10 should follow pretty quickly in order as most of the groundwork and actual benching is well over half over and i have a good idea of how it will look as a finished series

i really appreciate all the help you guys have given me; after all it is my first AMD build with any overclocking .. and i am keeping this PC
:thumbsup:

 

[Rhoxed]

have you tried using the HTT reference clock to overclock any?

if i remember correctly, alot of these x3's dont like high multi's

as for your voltage, your more then safe, i have been running my 940BE @ 1.52 for ~6 months now with no problems (this is also on a 3 year old MSI K9A2 platinum)
i would say 1.55 is the max you would want to take it on good air and 24/7
(i have a 9850BE running 1.55 for well over a year at 3.35ghz - this is my bedroom HTPC / gamer for my 42" viera)

dont be afraid to put some volts in these chips, they are much less sensitive than the intel counterparts

try 1.5 or higher for the 720BE (for reference i used this chip in a foxconn a79a-s which does not unlock and the chip could not run past 3.8, moving to the gigabyte unlocked 4th core and i am able to OC to 4ghz+ now (though only stable at 3.95 or lower))

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/8531/capturehiv.png

SS of what im running RIGHT now, as you can see its been on for over 8hrs ran a 3dmark06 test and i ran prime for 4hrs, max temp was 52C

 

[apoppin]

Thanks for the good advice; i am done with what i call a simple moderate overclock - at just under 3.5GHz, 720 X3 has been running stable for many hours.

i have just finished using my 4870-X2 to compare my AMD PC with 3 CPUs, each running at stock and at their max *moderate* OC, with Q9550s at 3.1 GHz and at 4.0 GHz. Next, i am going to repeat the 16 benchmarks i use with GTX 280 [at 19x12 & 16x10] instead of 4870-X2 to see if there is much difference with a single upper-midrange GPU [HD4890/GTX275 class] instead of CrossFire.

At some point in this *series* [i know i see at least 5-6 parts :Q ], i will explore a more aggressive overclock and also use Overdrive [which i don't like but i will give a 2nd chance to]. i doubt (from my experience with Intel overclocks) that there will be much difference between 3.5 and 3.9 GHz, for example, in actual frame rates; but we shall see if it is worth it to wring every last MHz from a CPU overclock in gaming.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: Rhoxed
have you tried using the HTT reference clock to overclock any?

if i remember correctly, alot of these x3's dont like high multi's

as for your voltage, your more then safe, i have been running my 940BE @ 1.52 for ~6 months now with no problems (this is also on a 3 year old MSI K9A2 platinum)
i would say 1.55 is the max you would want to take it on good air and 24/7
(i have a 9850BE running 1.55 for well over a year at 3.35ghz - this is my bedroom HTPC / gamer for my 42" viera)

dont be afraid to put some volts in these chips, they are much less sensitive than the intel counterparts

try 1.5 or higher for the 720BE (for reference i used this chip in a foxconn a79a-s which does not unlock and the chip could not run past 3.8, moving to the gigabyte unlocked 4th core and i am able to OC to 4ghz+ now (though only stable at 3.95 or lower))

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/8531/capturehiv.png

SS of what im running RIGHT now, as you can see its been on for over 8hrs ran a 3dmark06 test and i ran prime for 4hrs, max temp was 52C

Hey that's nice. I think I will go try playing with fsb myself. Is that 64bit or 32bit?

You would do well to OC the cpu-NB too...