New 3dmark03 patch - nVIDIA cheating ... again???

[spam]

Hi Jeff7181,

That compares to your previous result of 6157?

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: spam
Hi Jeff7181,

That compares to your previous result of 6157?

Yep... I also just corrected my CPU score in 2003... for some reason I had put 6700 somethin or other... must have been looking at the wrong thing... I'm surprised nobody pointed that out in the month or more I've had it in my sig. CPU score didn't change at all with the new version.

 

[Genx87]

Oh god they must be cheating, what am I to do?

Seriously I like Beyond3d but some of the crap their moderators spew gets old. If it wasnt for the people on the msgboards I would never visit the site.

Posts performance data from a guild that isnt even allowed. Nice and honest there...........................

I await 340 build numbers and why does everybody automatically assume it is a cheat? When you change the code around it could very well not jive well with certain drivers. The best way to tell if they are "really" cheating is to get ahold of 3dmark03 340 using 3.9s, 52.16s, a DX software rendered version of it, and compare image quality.

Chances are there wont be much to see, maybe a wrong shadow here, an incorrect color there. Nothing anybody except the prying eyes of a reviewer would notice while the thing is running.

 

[nboy22]

it's kinda funny that you post this.. because all you are doing, is being an ATI fanboy.. it's all opinion, no fact. and overall it is lame, people take swings at each other, and say that oh ya... ati is better than nvidia, oh ya.. nvidia is better than ati, but the truth is.. they're damn close to each other, and what does a few FPS apart mean? exactly nothing.. it's really lame to go out and look for stuff like this cause all your doing is making yourself look like a complete A$$ and your purposely taking swings at these companies, either nvidia or ati.. there's like no peace in these topics which is really sad.. people need lives rather than spending all their time on the net looking for new "evidence" that either company is so called "cheating" or what not.. and you can't really deny that you were doing this.. because both your rigs have ATI cards.. which means your obviously an ATI fanatic.. but anywho.. it's lame.. i'd be glad if everyone on this forum that posts crap like this would read my message.. cause it is a valid point

 

[Evdawg]

who gives a crap if they are cheating... take legit FPS's from games, not 3dmark. IMO, who cares if you can get higher score in 3dmark, its just fun to see what kinda score people get, and can compete with other systems. What it comes down to is whats in the game and how it runs.... end of story. So lalala who cares. ;D

 

[SilverBack]

I'm an ATI owner, however I don't see any problem with the way FutureMark has decided to do this.
After installing the patch this is stated:

3DMark®03 version 3.4.0
3DMark03 v3.4.0 is an updated version of 3DMark03. Version 3.4.0 has updated prevention of 3DMark specific optimizations in the graphics drivers. This ensures that the benchmark results you get are genuinely comparable to those of other hardware.

So as you can see, FM has looked at the driver sets to negate the specific card functions of either ATI or Nvidia.
List of driver sets to be run on 3DMark only.
I don't see where anyone will actually pay attention to this though

I read where Nvidia was looking into rejoining the Beta program with FM, I don't know if it's happened yet, but one would think it has.

 

[Pete]

It's a good thing all of you actually read the thread (including the blatantly-biased moderator's post), otherwise I might have to inform you that v333 is the release candidate name for v340 (read: they're the same thing).

I'm sure IQ comparos are forthcoming. I'd be curious to see how different, if at all, GT4 will look on the FX.

Edit: Insomniak, if you think 3DM03 is useless, why bother complaining about it? This discussion is for people who find it to be of some value.

Rage187, you (like some others), troll about "ATi kiddies," yet your posts are the most childish in this thread. Please, if you don't care about 3DM03, don't disrupt this thread with more uninformed one-liners.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: spam
Nvidia is guilty till proven innocent in my mind. How many cheats does that make this year for Nvidia? - 12 at least?

No surprise here, Nvidia does not have just hardware for sale. It has sold it's integrity and their souls for a few fps. What a mess!!

I agree with you there, spam, however we are in a minority. Nvidia has been caught cheating, it has been on a lot more than one account and still people turn a blind eye again and again. Nvidia derived a "free" performance upgrade in 52.16 - it had to come from somewhere.

Also, this might not affect game performance at all, however judging from the 3dmark 2k3 scores, I always thought that recent Nvidia numbers seemed inflated.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: nboy22
it's kinda funny that you post this.. because all you are doing, is being an ATI fanboy.. it's all opinion, no fact. and overall it is lame, people take swings at each other, and say that oh ya... ati is better than nvidia, oh ya.. nvidia is better than ati, but the truth is.. they're damn close to each other, and what does a few FPS apart mean? exactly nothing.. it's really lame to go out and look for stuff like this cause all your doing is making yourself look like a complete A$$ and your purposely taking swings at these companies, either nvidia or ati.. there's like no peace in these topics which is really sad.. people need lives rather than spending all their time on the net looking for new "evidence" that either company is so called "cheating" or what not.. and you can't really deny that you were doing this.. because both your rigs have ATI cards.. which means your obviously an ATI fanatic.. but anywho.. it's lame.. i'd be glad if everyone on this forum that posts crap like this would read my message.. cause it is a valid point

I don't do this often, and I know I should reply with criticism more constructive than operatic, but:

Exposing cheats is not being a fanboy. Ignoring them is.


To try and head off any more irrelevant complaints, allow me to repeat myself with more emphasis:

You can choose to view 3DM03 as irrelevant and therefore ignore its results (much easier to do as more alternative DX9 benchmarks appear), but you can't deny the obvious fact that nV is doing things in 3DM03 that FM doesn't think they should be doing.

If you don't like 3DM03, there are finally some alternate DX9 apps that you can benchmark. So focus on those, rather than berating those of us who also want to focus on 3DM03.

 

[DaveBaumann]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I await 340 build numbers

They are the same thing. Scores between the RC333 and 340 are identical.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: nboy22<people need lives rather than spending all their time on the net looking for new "evidence" that either company is so called "cheating" or what not..

I've seen Pete go days without posting here - he posts when he deems his posts can be relevant. I can assure you that he does not search for "evidence" of Nvidia's cheating; on the contrary, this stuff just crops up, and the evidence is so strong it's hard to ignore. And yet, people still deny it. It's absolutely unreal the level of denial and faithfulness to a hardware company in people.

and you can't really deny that you were doing this.. because both your rigs have ATI cards.. which means your obviously an ATI fanatic.. but anywho.. it's lame.. i'd be glad if everyone on this forum that posts crap like this would read my message.. cause it is a valid point

Just because he runs ATI cards doesn't mean squat. I was an Nvidia "fan" back in the GeForce 2 days, but I was running on an ATI Radeon DDR LE because it was a lot cheaper at the time.

And what makes you so high and mighty to deem that this is fanboyism?

I'd be glad if instead of name-calling you actually put some thought into your posts, and didn't have such a dismissive attitude towards this, as so many posters here do.

Also, I would be surprised if more than a few posters here actually read most of that B3D thread at all - people just see the title, read the results and come up with their own conclusion instead of reading all of the facts/opinions in that thread. It's a shame...

 

[Genx87]

Nvidia derived a "free" performance upgrade in 52.16 - it had to come from somewhere.


Oh ya god forbid it could be anything other than a cheat. Didnt Nvidia manage to squeeze out about 60% more performance in some games with the newest drivers? And this was with no loss in IQ but instead rearranging the instructions to better fit their hardware.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
What I think is funny is that people think any of this is "cheating."

This debate has gone on for a long time and will probably continue to do so until all the companies involved decide to come clean about it.

*All* video card manufacturers optimize for specific programs in their drivers. This is not new, not unexpected, and not necessarily a bad thing. However, there are several optimizations of this sort that are generally frowned upon:

1) Optimizing specifically for benchmarks. Sure, high benchmark numbers are nice, but I'd rather have the driver development team focusing on real applications. As most large review sites are making efforts nowadays to move away from testing on just a handful of mostly synthetic programs, this should be less of an issue. I hope. The idea of a benchmark is that it should be a fair comparison between multiple systems or video hardware configurations, not a competition to see whose driver team has spent more time tweaking things for Futuremark's particular scenes. Trying to artificially inflate your numbers with nonportable hardcoded optimizations (like NVIDIA did earlier this year with extra clipping planes in parts of 3DMark03) borders on deceptive marketing, IMHO. It's like a car company saying their car does 0-60 in 2.3 seconds -- if you run it on a downhill track rather than a level one.

2) Optimizations that trade IQ for speed without telling you and without a way to turn it off. NVIDIA has been accused of this numerous times over the last year (in AM3, for example) -- although a lot of the issues seem to have been from them releasing beta drivers for benchmarking before they were really ready (which is another, entirely separate, problem). ATI still has some issues like this as well (though at least some of them appear to be bugs between driver and application preferences for things like AF). Speed and IQ are always a tradeoff -- and I don't care what they do as long as they tell you what they're doing and you can control it. Most people won't care either way, as long as the games look OK while they're playing them.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: spam
Hello Imsomniak,

You said,

Yes, I'm always this cynical. It helps me to be always this right.
People talk about cynicism as if it isn't the truth. Oh well. Nice guys finish last.

As for reality, accountability - that's basically a bunch of mumbojumbo. .

-I am really sorry that you feel that way, that is a sad way to live- not live -exist.

Not at all. I rather enjoy it.

You may believe it's sad to live this way, but I feel that your method of living is far sadder. Unlike you, at least I don't shelter myself from the way the world actually is. Be ignorant if you want - it is one way to attain bliss.

The other is education.

Don't try to start some vague existential discussion within this topic....that's very thin ice.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Pete

Edit: Insomniak, if you think 3DM03 is useless, why bother complaining about it? This discussion is for people who find it to be of some value.

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Look, see my other post here, the one I dragged over from Beyond 3d. That's about the size of the situation. This whole thing has been a waste of time, and thus I wash my hands of it.

 

[spam]

Hello Insomniak,

You are sheltering yourself from reality or "the real world" as you put it. When reality and accountability are " 'mumbo jumbo" Then you imply that you are not accountable and your life is not based upon reality. Any discussion with you is meaningless....... There are no grounds for common understanding or discourse.

Look at the inconsistency of your remarks- what you apply to others does not apply to your self. -You started an estistentialist discussion yet you are unwilling to defend your premise or be held accountable for your inconsistencies, - Oh yeah you said accountability was "mumbo jumbo" isn't that convienient!

Furthermore you do care about reality , otherwise why would you be posting on these threads at all?

 

[spam]

-What is wrong with you guys?

Cheating does matter, honesty is important!

You are selective and inconsitent in your position. If you were consistent in your position then, it doesn't matter to you if your boss or employee cheats you, that's okay?- right? If your wife cheats on you that's okay right? If you are cheated out of copyright or patent that's okay right? Because cheating doesn't matter.

Give us a break!!

 

[nboy22]

no.. see.. the real thing is.. did you see me taking defense for any company? did you see me taking offense for any company? the simple answer: no, i was not. there is no where in there where i say, oh i own such and such card. so therefore. i'm not being a fanboy.. like pretty much.. taking your so called "evidence of cheating" (sad thing enough that you even had to bring it to this forum, cause all it is, is opinionating) through another company onto a forum and posting about it, such as ATI vs. Nvidia, proves that you are nothing more than a fanboy, that's all these threads are about.. ati people ignore that ati has bad drivers, and nvidia people don't think ati cards are better than nvidia cards.. that's the way it goes, and it's so obvious.. that if you cannot pick that up.. your very, should i say, "special". all this game is, is opinions, and if you have ever noticed.. it just keeps going on, and on, and on.. never stops, because people like you propel it.. it's very sad to argue over a hardware company.. just cause you own a specific card.. or because you used to own a card and thought it was good/bad. Anyways.. i guess the main point here, is that argueing over such a thing proves that you really are hopeless, and you can't let go of things such as this, and if this isn't fanboyism then why do you own two ATI cards on two of your machines and your taking shots at Nvidia, that's exactly what fanboyism is about.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: spam
-What is wrong with you guys?

Cheating does matter, honesty is important!

You are selective and inconsitent in your position. If you were consistent in your position then, it doesn't matter to you if your boss or employee cheats you, that's okay?- right? If your wife cheats on you that's okay right? If you are cheated out of copyright or patent that's okay right? Because cheating doesn't matter.

Give us a break!!

I don't consider it cheating... so your argument with me is non-existant =)

 

[Rage187]

spam, you take this sh!t way too seriously.



"You are sheltering yourself from reality or "the real world" "

pot, meet kettle.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: Rage187
spam, you take this sh!t way too seriously.



"You are sheltering yourself from reality or "the real world" "

pot, meet kettle.

And you aren't taking it seriously enough. According to most posters here, Nvidia has never cheated.

Originally posted by: nboy22
no.. see.. the real thing is.. did you see me taking defense for any company? did you see me taking offense for any company? the simple answer: no, i was not. there is no where in there where i say, oh i own such and such card. so therefore. i'm not being a fanboy.. like pretty much.. taking your so called "evidence of cheating" (sad thing enough that you even had to bring it to this forum, cause all it is, is opinionating) through another company onto a forum and posting about it, such as ATI vs. Nvidia, proves that you are nothing more than a fanboy, that's all these threads are about.. ati people ignore that ati has bad drivers, and nvidia people don't think ati cards are better than nvidia cards.. that's the way it goes, and it's so obvious.. that if you cannot pick that up.. your very, should i say, "special". all this game is, is opinions, and if you have ever noticed.. it just keeps going on, and on, and on.. never stops, because people like you propel it.. it's very sad to argue over a hardware company.. just cause you own a specific card.. or because you used to own a card and thought it was good/bad. Anyways.. i guess the main point here, is that argueing over such a thing proves that you really are hopeless, and you can't let go of things such as this, and if this isn't fanboyism then why do you own two ATI cards on two of your machines and your taking shots at Nvidia, that's exactly what fanboyism is about.

You called Pete a fanboy based in the fact that he owns 2 ATI cards. If that's not taking a defense for a company, I don't know what is. Besides, your name is nboy on top of it all. And please - paragraphs are your friend (and more importantly - the reader's friend).

^ I didn't get much out of that, but I did find that you talk about ATI's so called "bad drivers". Another fine misconception from long ago. Care to call them a cheater too, based ond Quack?

 

[spam]

I think it should be emphasized that this report is preliminary. As more web sites use this new 3dmark 2003 version, a clearer picture should be seen. I wonder how Nvidia will respond? Will 3dMark dare to call Nvidia a cheater?

 

[spam]

Read this press release from 3dMark here: 3dmark I noticed that they say

this free downloadable software patch provides the only valid version (340) of 3DMark03. Only scores obtained through the version 340 and with approved drivers will be used in official statistics, comparisons and services provided by Futuremark.

What would happen if a review site or an IHV's used an older version of the 3dMark? It seems that 3dMark can controll it's use while avoiding litigation with IHV's.

 

[Noid]

My score is pretty much the same (just 3 or 4 points higher)
( ATI VC thou )

thx for the 'heads up' on the new patch btw ....

 

[zulfi]

Originally posted by: Insomniak


People talk about cynicism as if it isn't the truth. Oh well. Nice guys finish last.

As for reality, accountability - that's basically a bunch of mumbojumbo.

As for improving the world that's one of the most laughable ideas I've ever heard. "Improving" things for one person or persons will only piss off another group. Welcome to Chaos Theory 101.

Look, see my other post here, the one I dragged over from Beyond 3d. That's about the size of the situation. This whole thing has been a waste of time, and thus I wash my hands of it.

The world is too dangerous to live in, not because of the people who do evil, but because of the people who sit and let it happen - Albert Einstein