Netflix calling out US ISPs

Mr. Pedantic

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Feb 14, 2010
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http://www.dailytech.com/Verizon+Threatens+to+Sue+Over+Netflix+Congestion+Warnings/article35026.htm

Ever since net neutrality rules were struck down in court early this year, instances of apparent throttling have been on the rise. Comcast Corp. (CMCSA) -- the nation's largest cable internet provider -- was the first to capitalize on the newly unregulated landscape. It began throttling Netflix, Inc. (NFLX) subscribers, but agreed to stop after Netflix agreed to pay it a special fee for extra bandwidth.

In the months since, Verizon Communications Inc.'s (VZ) FiOS and AT&T Inc.'s (T) Uverse customers have also seen suspicious slowdowns in Netflix video. The ISPs claim their networks are just experiencing natural lags and perhaps a bit of congestion at peak hours in urban areas.

Verizon and Netflix reached a "paid peering" deal, similar to the one Netflix made with Comcast, at the end of April. And yet, despite agreeing to this double dipping, customers and Netflix are indicating that speeds are still looking suspiciously slow for many users, a possible indictation of throttling.

Having already paid and raised its rates, Netflix was almost out of options, so it turned to a bold approach -- putting warnings for AT&T and Verizon customers, calling out the ISP by name and warning that their network was detected as "congested".

The new approach created quite a stir. Verizon has now threatened to sue Netflix, sending it a cease and desist letter. In the letter Verizon calls the claims in Netflix's message "deceptive" and "false", blaming the slowdown on Netflix. Verizon writes:

"In light of this, Verizon demands that Netflix immediately cease and desist from providing any such further 'notices' to users of the Verizon network... We further demand, that within five days … Netflix provide Verizon with any and all evidence and documentation that it possesses substantiating Netflix's assertion to Mr. Yuri Victor that his experience in viewing a Netflix video was solely attributable to the Verizon network."

Netflix fired back, saying that it was OK with giving Verizon its data showing the slowdown was on the service provider side, but that it won't be stopping the messages. Netflix spokesperson Joris Evers writes The Washington Post in an email:

"This is about consumers not getting what they paid for from their broadband provider. We are trying to provide more transparency, just like we do with ISP Speed Index, and Verizon is trying to shut down that discussion."

In a statement to Quartz, Netflix elaborates further, writing:

"This is about consumers not getting what they paid for from their broadband provider. We are trying to provide more transparency, just like we do with the Netflix ISP Speed Index, and Verizon is trying to shut down that discussion.

We are testing ways to let consumers know how their Netflix experience is being affected by congestion on their broadband provider’s network. At present, we are testing in the U.S. in areas serviced by many broadband providers. This test started in early May and it is ongoing.

Our test continues."

Now that Netflix has called Verizon's bluff, it should be interesting to see if Verizon files a lawsuit over the warnings, or backs down. Either way, it's going to be increasingly tough for companies like Netflix and Google Inc. (GOOG) (owner of YouTube) to provide free or affordable streaming video services, as internet service providers are look to increaase their profits with offerings of their own. As America has so few internet service providers and as these providers can throttle at will, warning customers directly is probably the only real recourse a company like Netflix has.

And if the courts silence those warnings, American customers will have to deal with the consequences without even possibly being aware of them. - See more at: http://www.dailytech.com/Verizon+Th...arnings/article35026.htm#sthash.y7Wmc3h2.dpuf

Can someone explain to me just how Netflix appealing to their customers is going to help? If I understand correctly, many places have only one ISP, and thus there are really no consequences that customers can levy on ISPs for "poor behaviour".
 

Newell Steamer

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This means nothing.

US ISPs will continue to do whatever the fuck they damn well please.

And, you will all take it.

Enjoy!
 

Markbnj

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Well, it obviously is helping, because Verizon is pissed. At this point Netflix just wants to make it clear that the trouble you're having with their brand has nothing to do with their brand. The ISPs are being greedy, monopolistic pricks with the support of a padded FCC board and sympathetic chair, and I'm glad Reed Hastings is giving it back to them.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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http://www.dailytech.com/Verizon+Threatens+to+Sue+Over+Netflix+Congestion+Warnings/article35026.htm



Can someone explain to me just how Netflix appealing to their customers is going to help? If I understand correctly, many places have only one ISP, and thus there are really no consequences that customers can levy on ISPs for "poor behaviour".

The idea is Netflix is passing the blame for their service running poorly (and it is being correctly passed IMO). Otherwise, people just think "Netflix sucks and never works properly" without realizing their ISP is the one causing the problems.

This also lets the vocal customers contact the people responsible for striking down net neutrality and complain, write their congressmen, bitch on the internet, etc about Netflix being screwed over because ISPs (cable companies) are worried they are losing business.
 

Mr. Pedantic

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The idea is Netflix is passing the blame for their service running poorly (and it is being correctly passed IMO). Otherwise, people just think "Netflix sucks and never works properly" without realizing their ISP is the one causing the problems.
But it doesn't change anything. The fact of the matter is that these ISP-provided content services will still be faster, no matter how much Netflix makes customers aware that it's the ISP's fault.

This also lets the vocal customers contact the people responsible for striking down net neutrality and complain, write their congressmen, bitch on the internet, etc about Netflix being screwed over because ISPs (cable companies) are worried they are losing business.

What's happened with this anyway? I'm not in the US so it's not really on the news, I signed an online thing a while ago but I haven't heard anything since.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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But it doesn't change anything. The fact of the matter is that these ISP-provided content services will still be faster, no matter how much Netflix makes customers aware that it's the ISP's fault.
It doesn't change the service being crappy for certain ISPs, but it changes the almighty public opinion. The more that people understand the problem isn't that Netflix is slow and that it is their ISP intentionally slowing just Netflix, the better Netflix has for fighting the ISPs.



What's happened with this anyway? I'm not in the US so it's not really on the news, I signed an online thing a while ago but I haven't heard anything since.

Unfortunately, nothing. The FCC is run by the ISPs, all bought and paid for. Not only are ISPs given local monopolies, they are able to get legislation and court decisions to block competitors.
 

Mr. Pedantic

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It doesn't change the service being crappy for certain ISPs, but it changes the almighty public opinion. The more that people understand the problem isn't that Netflix is slow and that it is their ISP intentionally slowing just Netflix, the better Netflix has for fighting the ISPs.
I don't know if you've noticed it yet, but the thing with capitalism is that the "almighty public opinion" isn't actually all that mighty if there is a monopoly on what people consider to be a vital service/product.

Unfortunately, nothing. The FCC is run by the ISPs, all bought and paid for. Not only are ISPs given local monopolies, they are able to get legislation and court decisions to block competitors.

So basically, you're all screwed.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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I don't know if you've noticed it yet, but the thing with capitalism is that the "almighty public opinion" isn't actually all that mighty if there is a monopoly on what people consider to be a vital service/product.



So basically, you're all screwed.

Public opinion against all the ISPs can go a long way to get government to enact and enforce laws preventing us all from continuing to be screwed.


In the mean time, I am just looking for a job in a place where Google can be my new internet overlord. I don't care if they do monitor my traffic for their own marketing purposes (advertisements for porn is certainly going to skyrocket for me! >_<)
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
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Duh?

The cable/telecom companies, whom Netflix is "stealing" business from and whom Netflix relies on to provide service to their product, are taking actions to protect their business... No way.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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The idea is Netflix is passing the blame for their service running poorly (and it is being correctly passed IMO). Otherwise, people just think "Netflix sucks and never works properly" without realizing their ISP is the one causing the problems.

This also lets the vocal customers contact the people responsible for striking down net neutrality and complain, write their congressmen, bitch on the internet, etc about Netflix being screwed over because ISPs (cable companies) are worried they are losing business.

The effect they are going for is precisely that: the more people know about the realities of the situation, the better the chances that Netflix can get what they want as a business. Make no mistake, what they are after is beneficial to them as a chief priority. That said, it is a win for the consumer as well, with zero negative consequences.

A few consumer groups are sponsored by the major industry groups, and they are claiming true net neutrality will have negative effects on the economy; that is laughable and disingenuous.
The louder Netflix is, the more consumers get to see the real impacts of what is going on (the internet use was so light prior, it escaped the attention of many).

Yes, such net neutrality rules WILL benefit Netflix, and will put constraints on last-mile ISPs. The only loser in the situation, however, are those ISPs. They might scratch and claw and claim that we will be hurt, but it's only the pocketbooks of the CEOs. They might try and pass some "rising costs" onto the consumers because of all this, but in the end we will benefit immensely.

In the interests of true progress, sometimes big companies have to burn out or otherwise get knocked down a few rungs. It has happened before and must continue to happen. It sucks, people lose jobs, revenues drop and shareholders bitch and moan, but it gives room to the new industries and overall progress, which means investors can hop onto new bubbles and bandwagons and promising startups. It's a cycle that will repeat for eternity, at least until the concept of currency disappears.

People like to get up in arms about protecting the industry they are involved in, or protecting certain industries because OMGJOBS! or some personal beliefs... but there is no way we move forward in life without stirring things up.
 

mikeford

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Jan 27, 2001
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Most people have no clue why something seems slow related to the internet. When my son gets lag in a game he yells at me asking if I am downloading, sometimes yes, sometimes no, but I always say its a server issue for the game. Downloads more important that game FPS.

Once the consumer KNOWS why its slow, they will raise hell with the ISP, which is as it should be.
 

PliotronX

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Oct 17, 1999
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Why are the ISP's so averse to providing traffic the way it was meant to be? Can't they capitalize on this type of VoD service? They are fighting the future the same way the RIAA was. Only older episodes and movies are available on Netflix anyways, what are they afraid of? It's still very popular so obviously there is a hunger for what Netflix throws out there.
 

Mr. Pedantic

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Why are the ISP's so averse to providing traffic the way it was meant to be? Can't they capitalize on this type of VoD service? They are fighting the future the same way the RIAA was. Only older episodes and movies are available on Netflix anyways, what are they afraid of? It's still very popular so obviously there is a hunger for what Netflix throws out there.

You're mistaken. They're only slowing down Netflix's traffic. They're not necessarily slowing down anyone else's, and they're certainly not slowing down any of their own.
 

Markbnj

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Why are the ISP's so averse to providing traffic the way it was meant to be? Can't they capitalize on this type of VoD service? They are fighting the future the same way the RIAA was. Only older episodes and movies are available on Netflix anyways, what are they afraid of? It's still very popular so obviously there is a hunger for what Netflix throws out there.

At least two reasons I can think of: 1) Netflix directly attacks the cable operators' proprietary video services; and 2) because they're in a monopoly position sitting on a valuable choke point and are trying to turn that into a revenue stream. If they succeed they will establish the principle that connectivity to us, their end-user customers, is a product they can sell to the big content providers. This despite the fact that connectivity to the big content providers is the product they are already selling to us, their end-user customers.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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The whole idea (whether you agree Netflix is only concerned about their business) is that this is still good for most consumers whether you use Netflix or not. It has been shown that when people get riled up, things happen. Letting a company do the pushing for us peasants is a great way to get the ball rolling, even if their concern doesn't necessarily match our own. At the end of the day, most people want their internet to work as advertised/expected regardless of what the content is.

ISPs have decided they no longer want that. They have seen that people can and will pay for teiring and they want a piece of that (among other things). The sad part is, this once again comes down to greed. If we were to let the government come in and take over, it would be a disappointment. Keeping the government out of it could be a great thing if people weren't so concerned about stock holders and making the quickest buck possible regardless of how they get it. There is a fine line between free market and free fleecing.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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I think the net neutrality needs to be regulated and heavy penalties (fines in the billions, not millions) for breaking said regulations need to be enforced. Sure, that is a pipe dream, but we have to believe in something, right?

I don't think for one second that Netflix isn't fighting this fight for anything other than their own interests. They just happen to be fighting it correctly.

ISPs will tier by every way possible if they can get away with it. And, throttling competing services is a good way to do it without the customer directly implicating you as the bad guy. If Netflix (and other, similar services) don't speak up and say "the ISP is the one causing us to be slow, not our servers" customers will assume that Netflix is just crappy.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
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And to be clear, I find the way Netflix is handling it to be brilliant. It will be interesting to see which way the courts land on this.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
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...and netflix gets sued.

That is perfectly fine as long as they have the evidence to back up their claims. It only becomes a problem if they don't, because you can guarantee the ISPs will be towing the same line they have been for years. No one in the court system has any technical know how to say otherwise.
 
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smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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...and netflix gets sued.

I wonder exactly what that lawsuit entails. "Netflix is accurately representing the bandwidth in our network being throttled, and notifying the customer! They must be stopped!"

If Netflix can prove ISPs are doing this, and I'm sure they can, this lawsuit won't make it very far. I just hope Netflix can afford to pay for it, as that is generally how all these companies win BS lawsuits. Litigate until the defendant can no longer afford to defend themselves and then clean up in a "lol raped" out of court settlement!
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
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I wonder exactly what that lawsuit entails. "Netflix is accurately representing the bandwidth in our network being throttled, and notifying the customer! They must be stopped!"

If Netflix can prove ISPs are doing this, and I'm sure they can, this lawsuit won't make it very far. I just hope Netflix can afford to pay for it, as that is generally how all these companies win BS lawsuits. Litigate until the defendant can no longer afford to defend themselves and then clean up in a "lol raped" out of court settlement!

Good point, and why us little people stand no chance against them in a lawsuit.
 

squarecut1

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Regardless of all this net neutrality or lack of it, pretty soon isps will charge a lot more for data, based on usage. Already happening and will be the case everywhere.

It is such a messed up scenario. The tv cable company is the isp too. So you can drop cable because of the exorbitant price. But they will then squeeze you for using streaming services. Welcome to the free market
 

Mai72

Lifer
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I'm going to Thailand in a few weeks. $17 a month for wifi. :)

When I was in Korea I was paying $22 a month for blazing fast internet.
 

squarecut1

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I'm going to Thailand in a few weeks. $17 a month for wifi. :)

When I was in Korea I was paying $22 a month for blazing fast internet.

But you did not have the free market where businesses compete with each other to bring you the best product at the right price

Same reason you got inexpensive good medical care there.