Need some help from fellow atheists

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Madwand1

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2006
3,309
0
76
Originally posted by: reverend boltron
And you were right about the bible condoning slavery. It does in the OT as well as the NT. Jesus tells us that in order to be the greatest, we must become a slave to all. It also tells us that if we're in Christ Jesus, we're no longer slaves to sin, but slaves righteousness. And if we were free while we were saved, we're a slave to Christ (and if we were slaves, we're a free man in Christ). There are parts that say "there is no Greek or Jew, slave nor free..." (1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:28, Collossians 3:11), and this is referring to us as a body of members in Christ. And then there is John 15:15, where Jesus says he no longer calls His twelve apostles slaves, but friends. Paul, and some other apostles though, talk about being bondslaves of God or Christ, or slaves of Christ. And that is an interesting study to do as well. About using your freedom to become a slave of God. Obviously that doesn't sound too enticing to someone who doesn't line up with it or agree where it's coming from, but to those who do, there isn't anything else that they would rather do.

I find these points interesting in themselves. On the one hand, who doesn't love freedom? On the other, in raising a child, you see the practical value of obedience. John 15:15 doesn't hinge the distinction of slave/servant vs. friend on freedom, but on knowledge. The requirement for obedience is not lessened -- the disciples are however granted a boon of knowledge which raises them above being just slaves. It likely is an example of love; perhaps an example of treating servants as you'd like to be treated yourself; also likely something which we do not have enough information to understand. Obedience and submission is in fact far harder than one would think. That "there isn't anything else that they would rather do" is nice in theory, but far far far from reality. Even wanting to do that, truly, sincerely, is a huge challenge, and arguably the single biggest challenge of the would-be to surmount.

Slavery is supposedly abolished and universally repugnant. Yet we buy products made by companies which treat their employees virtually as slaves, and in some cases actually use slaves. We have a servant class in every country and in some cases in every home, as women. We have animals as working slaves, property, and food. We ourselves are slaves to our own wants and desires. I think the high moral ground isn't so high after all if we look at it in totality. I have more moral and intellectual difficulty in bringing down centuries old literature and calling myself superior to it than to try to see it in a broader context and to see where its calling still exceeds my actions.
 

Pacemaker

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2001
1,184
2
0
Most Christians I know are less moral than most atheists I know. I know many Christians who go out Friday and Saturday looking to have premarital sex with a girl, yet are always in church on Sunday.

I would say that having an all forgiving god who you can simply ask to forgive you over anything you do would make you less moral (and in my experience it does).
 

reverend boltron

Senior member
Nov 18, 2004
945
0
76
Originally posted by: Pacemaker
Most Christians I know are less moral than most atheists I know. I know many Christians who go out Friday and Saturday looking to have premarital sex with a girl, yet are always in church on Sunday.

I would say that having an all forgiving god who you can simply ask to forgive you over anything you do would make you less moral (and in my experience it does).

That is really sad because it is really true. There is an entire generation who honor Him with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. :(

It's sad. Sometimes you can see that there are more Christian atheists out there than you would think. They might profess that there is a God, but their in their hearts they act like there isn't. While sometimes you will see an atheist who says that there is no god on the outside, yet on the inside he acts like there is. Jesus does say that there will be many who come to Him saying, "Lord, Lord! Didn't we do this and that in Your name?" and He'll say, "Get away from Me, because I never knew you." It's a thick, subtle deception.
 

Skotty

Senior member
Dec 29, 2006
232
0
0
Originally posted by: JohnCU
local news paper writer asks people if they believe in god

trying to get my point across, and then someone posts this:

It's an easier life when one discounts God, heaven and hell.....once that philosophy is in place, it enables atheists to live the type of immoral life with no feelings of guilt.....

If anyone wants to add to the discussion, feel free. I'm definitely outnumbered in the bible belt.


Their statement is mostly true. But how does it lose your argument? What is your argument?

This is of course too simplified, but there are two kinds of people in this world. Moral and immoral. Believing in God, heaven, and hell will keep a subset of the immoral from acting immorally. To all the rest, it really doesn't make any difference whether or not they believe.
 

L00ker

Senior member
Jun 27, 2006
201
0
0
A religion based on the premise that you have a "choice" to believe in a god or suffer eternally is not a choice at all. It is a religion based off of fear, and we all know that fear is not real. Additionally people who prey on ones fear of the "unknown" whether it be heaven or hell is completely irrelevent because this is exactly what fear mongering is. Fear mongering is the use of fear to leverage the opinions and actions of others towards some end. The object of fear is exaggerated; those the fear is directed toward are kept aware of it on a constant basis. Believe or go to hell, aka eternal pain and suffering, personally I choose to believe in something i can see touch and feel, hell and heaven not being one of them...
 

pradeep1

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2005
1,099
1
81
What is the point in arguing with people like this? You are wasting your time and precious brain resources to change their minds? For what end?

Some interesting links for you guys:

The Brick Testament: http://www.thebricktestament.com/index.html

The God Who Wasn't There:

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLqqGy2SqmM
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMiAwe6TAYM
Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP0x81L3vmk
Part 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMLbH_mN52Q

p.s. I am not an athiest.
 

Blefuscu

Junior Member
Jul 4, 2007
23
0
0
Originally posted by: K1052
Atheists are pretty much in the same boat as the religious.

They also profess a belief which has no basis according to the available evidence.

Ok dude. You believe in the tooth fairy. I don't. Neither of us has evidence. Who's the idiot?
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,251
1
61
Originally posted by: Blefuscu
Originally posted by: K1052
Atheists are pretty much in the same boat as the religious.

They also profess a belief which has no basis according to the available evidence.

Ok dude. You believe in the tooth fairy. I don't. Neither of us has evidence. Who's the idiot?

I dunno... but I suspect the guy with the quarter is ahead of the game. ;)
 

Safeway

Lifer
Jun 22, 2004
12,081
9
81
Maybe we need a Religious Religion Forum and a Not Religious Religion Forum.

:laugh:
 

Blefuscu

Junior Member
Jul 4, 2007
23
0
0
Originally posted by: JohnCU
local news paper writer asks people if they believe in god

trying to get my point across, and then someone posts this:

It's an easier life when one discounts God, heaven and hell.....once that philosophy is in place, it enables atheists to live the type of immoral life with no feelings of guilt.....

If anyone wants to add to the discussion, feel free. I'm definitely outnumbered in the bible belt.

Dude. These people are dumb and/or have a remarkable aptitude for self-delusion. There is no point arguing with them. Magic makes more sense to them than natural selection. They need a 2000 year old book to tell them what is right or wrong. The appropriate response is to just laugh.

A condensed history of religion. By Blefuscu.

50,000 BC:
you: my mom just died. this sucks. why?
Jerry Falwell: that happened to my mom, too! i was sad too but then i realized that she's not really dead. your mom didn't really die. she went to the secret vacationland.
you: really? then why is she lying at the bottom of that hole?
Jerry Falwell: she's not really there. her *soul* went to vacationland.
you: oh. ok how do i get to vacationland to check on this?
Jerry Falwell: you can't. you have to be dead.
you: why didn't i see her soul goto vacationland?
Jerry Falwell: it's uh.. invisible.
you: do frogs have souls?
Jerry Falwell: uh... yeah but they goto uh.. frog vacationland

49,999 BC:
you: hey hold on. my mom had a mom. and my mom's mom had a mom. who was my mom's mom's mom's mom's........... mom?
Jerry Falwell: a clay lady.

4000 BC:
you: why is lightning shooting down out of those clouds? i'm scared.
Jerry Falwell: me too. obviously there's a very large immortal pissed-off dude up there throwing those things. and there's obviously a guy in a chariot dragging the sun around the sky.

1514 AD:
you: because of the way the planets move around in the sky it seems kinda like the earth should be moving around the sun, not the other way around.
Jerry Falwell: haha nice one. the sun? what's so special about the sun? God definitely wouldn't do that. I know... Fer sure...


After thousands of years, guess which made-up crap survives and which made-up crap gets debunked eventually? Yeah that's right: the crap that *by definition* can't be directly proven one way or another survives. Especially if it has a purpose (makes people feel better, allows some people to control other people, etc.). If you want to be coldly analytical about it, "judgement should be reserved" (agnostic). Or if you prefer common sense, "it's made-up crap as well" (atheist).
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: Blefuscu
Originally posted by: K1052
Atheists are pretty much in the same boat as the religious.

They also profess a belief which has no basis according to the available evidence.

Ok dude. You believe in the tooth fairy. I don't. Neither of us has evidence. Who's the idiot?

I dunno... but I suspect the guy with the quarter is ahead of the game. ;)

lol :)
 

Blefuscu

Junior Member
Jul 4, 2007
23
0
0
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: Blefuscu
Originally posted by: K1052
Atheists are pretty much in the same boat as the religious.

They also profess a belief which has no basis according to the available evidence.

Ok dude. You believe in the tooth fairy. I don't. Neither of us has evidence. Who's the idiot?

I dunno... but I suspect the guy with the quarter is ahead of the game. ;)

hehe. that argument will work as soon as God starts handing out quarters. :)
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,581
0
0
Originally posted by: reverend boltron
Originally posted by: Pacemaker
Most Christians I know are less moral than most atheists I know. I know many Christians who go out Friday and Saturday looking to have premarital sex with a girl, yet are always in church on Sunday.

I would say that having an all forgiving god who you can simply ask to forgive you over anything you do would make you less moral (and in my experience it does).

That is really sad because it is really true. There is an entire generation who honor Him with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. :(

It's sad. Sometimes you can see that there are more Christian atheists out there than you would think. They might profess that there is a God, but their in their hearts they act like there isn't. While sometimes you will see an atheist who says that there is no god on the outside, yet on the inside he acts like there is. Jesus does say that there will be many who come to Him saying, "Lord, Lord! Didn't we do this and that in Your name?" and He'll say, "Get away from Me, because I never knew you." It's a thick, subtle deception.

This is why religious people can and often do win debates with atheists. Well played.
 

JohnCU

Banned
Dec 9, 2000
16,530
4
0
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Originally posted by: reverend boltron
Originally posted by: Pacemaker
Most Christians I know are less moral than most atheists I know. I know many Christians who go out Friday and Saturday looking to have premarital sex with a girl, yet are always in church on Sunday.

I would say that having an all forgiving god who you can simply ask to forgive you over anything you do would make you less moral (and in my experience it does).

That is really sad because it is really true. There is an entire generation who honor Him with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. :(

It's sad. Sometimes you can see that there are more Christian atheists out there than you would think. They might profess that there is a God, but their in their hearts they act like there isn't. While sometimes you will see an atheist who says that there is no god on the outside, yet on the inside he acts like there is. Jesus does say that there will be many who come to Him saying, "Lord, Lord! Didn't we do this and that in Your name?" and He'll say, "Get away from Me, because I never knew you." It's a thick, subtle deception.

This is why religious people can and often do win debates with atheists. Well played.

? he didn't convince me of anything except that there are indeed many christians who show up on sunday just to get their name in the book.
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,581
0
0
Originally posted by: JohnCU
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Originally posted by: reverend boltron
Originally posted by: Pacemaker
Most Christians I know are less moral than most atheists I know. I know many Christians who go out Friday and Saturday looking to have premarital sex with a girl, yet are always in church on Sunday.

I would say that having an all forgiving god who you can simply ask to forgive you over anything you do would make you less moral (and in my experience it does).

That is really sad because it is really true. There is an entire generation who honor Him with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. :(

It's sad. Sometimes you can see that there are more Christian atheists out there than you would think. They might profess that there is a God, but their in their hearts they act like there isn't. While sometimes you will see an atheist who says that there is no god on the outside, yet on the inside he acts like there is. Jesus does say that there will be many who come to Him saying, "Lord, Lord! Didn't we do this and that in Your name?" and He'll say, "Get away from Me, because I never knew you." It's a thick, subtle deception.

This is why religious people can and often do win debates with atheists. Well played.

? he didn't convince me of anything except that there are indeed many christians who show up on sunday just to get their name in the book.

He's not targeting you. He's targeting "moderates", or people on the fence about religion. Debates aren't won by who presented their case with the most supporting evidence. Debates are decided by who argued better.
 

rhino56

Platinum Member
Oct 6, 2004
2,325
1
0
you shouldnt judge christianity by christians, only by christ. its easy to point out peoples flaws and draw conclusions from that. If someone is really seeking to find truth i dont think they would be dissapointed in jesus. why did they kill him? even if he was just an everyday man not capable of miracles, is there nothing to gain from his sacrifice?
when you have an opportunity to learn its an opportunity to gain, if you feel you would learn nothing from history then you have already lost a lot.
 

JohnCU

Banned
Dec 9, 2000
16,530
4
0
Originally posted by: rhino56
you shouldnt judge christianity by christians, only by christ. its easy to point out peoples flaws and draw conclusions from that. If someone is really seeking to find truth i dont think they would be dissapointed in jesus. why did they kill him? even if he was just an everyday man not capable of miracles, is there nothing to gain from his sacrifice?
when you have an opportunity to learn its an opportunity to gain, if you feel you would learn nothing from history then you have already lost a lot.

i didn't ask him to sacrifice for me, it's like having someone give you something just so you will be in debt to them.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
Originally posted by: Chadder007
Originally posted by: K1052
Atheists are pretty much in the same boat as the religious.

They also profess a belief which has no basis according to the available evidence.

QFT.

? wtf dude

are you going to deny there are no leprechauns? you realise your position requires you deny nothing to the point of absurdity:p atheists base their beliefs on reason, it is more likely that the god of those current religions doesn't exist than anything else. when you add each additional absurd claim of the scriptures to the equation it gets more and more unlikelty to the point where its very easy to write them off, especially when they are filled with flaws when something from god should have none. atheists aren't in the same boat as religions because they are consistent. they see bullsh*t and they call it. religions call other religions bullsh*t but their reasoning suddenly stops when it comes ot their own.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,100
5,640
126
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: Fraggable
Originally posted by: K1052
Atheists are pretty much in the same boat as the religious.

They also profess a belief which has no basis according to the available evidence.

You pretty much nailed it. Evolution, Atheism, Christianity, it's all physically and scientifically unprovable and therefore faith-based, and therefore a religion by most definitions. I wish everyone would recognize that.

I am a Baptist myself and realize that I can't prove to someone through facts that I am correct and the Bible is correct, however I have seen the evidence of it being correct in my life and therefore have faith that my belief is correct.

You have to admit that the post the OP quoted is correct - it would be easier to live how you wanted as a teen with no parents, right? God is seen as a Father - an authority that you are accountable to. Eliminate the accountability and what cause do you have to be 'moral'? Just the government's laws and respect for your fellow man.

God help us when those deteriorate.

You can believe that if you want to, that doesn't make you right, though.

There are a couple forms of atheism. The two major versions being:
1) "I believe that there is in fact no god."
2) "I do not believe in god. (Or any higher power)"

Note please, that this is different from agnosticism. Agnostics do not know whether or not there is a god, or if they have faith. There are also a couple types of agnostics. Some don't care if there is a higher power or not, and some care deeply and seek the answer out.

Back to atheism. One atheist requires faith, that atheist being the one who BELIEVES there is no god. The other requires no faith, this atheist simply does not believe, this atheist simply lacks faith/belief.

I am the latter. I do not like faith, I do not have faith, I only trust facts and science, as long as it has not been tampered with by biases sources. That seems to happen a lot, but there are still plenty of unbiased sources of science and intelligence available. I understand that most of our understanding of the universe and existence is theory, and I'm not going to pretend to KNOW anything if I don't.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you, and everyone else would stop fu**ing telling me what I and other fellow atheists believe. I will tell you what I believe, and that's final.

I do not appreciate people attempting to lump myself or others into groups because it makes them feel better about their own understanding of how they believe the world works. Keep that to yourself.

Atheism requires no Faith.[period]

What's there to Believe? No evidence of God has ever existed, it is only Logical that no God exists. It is completely Illogical to insist one does, especially when one considers all the supposed details the myriad of Religions espouse about their various God(s). With so much "knowledge" of God(s) there must be some kind of Proof also?

The Religious want to Believe that Atheism is somehow just another Faith. It just doesn't work that way.
 
Sep 2, 2004
128
0
0
If you could rob a bank without no-one ever knowing will you do it? Is the fact that you could end up in jail the thing that holds you back...?