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need shotgun advice

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Aug 23, 2000
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Originally posted by: biggestmuff
<blockquote>quote:
Originally posted by: waggy
<blockquote>quote:
Originally posted by: biggestmuff
<blockquote>quote:
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
<blockquote>quote:
Originally posted by: biggestmuff
A wise word of advice:

Think about the type of shotgun that you want to buy to use in a self-defense situation. Depending on where you live, that firearm may have to be turned over as evidence. Now, think again; what type of firearm do you want the prosecution showing to a jury of possibly firearm ignorant people? You want them to see a scary, matte-black, pistol-grip shotgun with a heatshield? So, for home defense, purchase something that looks like a grandfather would use. Something old-school with a wood stock.

People typically choose a firearm that looks cool without thinking of the legal ramifications of their decision. Just food for thought.</blockquote>

Up theirs. I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.

- M4H</blockquote>

I guess you didn't get it. I was simply suggesting that the OP, or anyone else, think about the cosmetics of a firearm before making the purchase. A field shotgun will stop an intruder just as well as a Fabarm FP6 or any other 'tactical' shotgun. When you go to court, that prosecutor will attempt to make you the bad guy by analyzing everything from the gun and the ammo used.

I mentioned the FP6, because that's a shotgun that I own, but I would never pick it up if I heard an intruder in my home.

People take the time to learn all about their firearms and the legalities of carrying, but neglect to study the ramifications of actually using a firearm in a defense situation. And that's what actually matters! ;)</blockquote>

so if your family was in danger you would not pick up the gun to defend them?</blockquote>

No. I would not pick up the Fabarm FP6. I would choose another firearm. I have other firearms. ;)
What does it matter. The prosecutor will be able to get any of your guns as evidence. "Ladies and Gentlemen of the suppossied jury. Mr Robber was brutally attacked by Mr. Biggestmuff, he shot him with his grandfathers old hunting shotgun because it was closer than his FP6 shotgun or any of the other 16 guns he had in the house. This man is obviously a monster and was itching to kill someone that fateful day that Mr. Robber mistakenly entered the wrong house thinking it was his own.

99 times out of 100 a homeowner is not going to be charged with anything for killing or even shooting and injuring an intruder. Civil court is different, but in a country where you can sue someone for a missing pair of slacks, it's to be expected. And in civil court the defendant in the cases usually wins because there was no crime committed.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,197
0
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Originally posted by: biggestmuff
A wise word of advice:

Think about the type of shotgun that you want to buy to use in a self-defense situation. Depending on where you live, that firearm may have to be turned over as evidence. Now, think again; what type of firearm do you want the prosecution showing to a jury of possibly firearm ignorant people? You want them to see a scary, matte-black, pistol-grip shotgun with a heatshield? So, for home defense, purchase something that looks like a grandfather would use. Something old-school with a wood stock.

People typically choose a firearm that looks cool without thinking of the legal ramifications of their decision. Just food for thought.
You can change that over to will & it takes forever to get your damn gun back too :(




 

yuppiejr

Golden Member
Jul 31, 2002
1,318
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Since the UMSC and Army have tested and combat used the Mossberg 500 and Remington 870 models I'd say you're fine with either - it comes down to ergonomics and price as to which one is "better.". The current generation Benelli M1014 Pump + Semi-Auto model (M4 Super 90 in civilian versions) would also be a good choice if you want the ultimate in follow-up shot accuracy with the benefit of a pump action if a jam/misfire occurrs. It's probably 5-6x more expensive than the Mossberg or Remmy, but for the man/woman with deep pockets why not get the best home defense shotgun money can buy.

I, personally, think the 5 shot Saiga "AK" style clip fed models are to be avoided. They may look cool but haven't been through the extensive testing and validation that the battle proven Remington 870, Mossberg 500 series and Benelli M4 Super 90 models have. I'd rather have 8 in the shotgun at one time than deal with reloading after 5 shots if the situation called for it.

There are known issues with deformation of ammunition in the standard Saiga-12 magazines if left loaded for more than a couple of days. Trying to use one of these magazines after 2-3 days leads to failure to chamber properly due to the now oval shape of your shotgun shells. For home defense, where keeping the shotgun loaded and ready is key, this is a deal breaker. Deploying this firearm in a home defense situation would require you to load the magazines AFTER you detected an intruder, then deal with the cumbersome "hold the bolt back" magazine reload quirk specific to this design. Much easier to reach under the bed, rack the slide (or click the safety depending on how you store it) and focus on dealing with the intruder rather than goofing around with your cool looking but otherwise useless Saiga-12 shotgun.


 
Aug 23, 2000
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Originally posted by: lozina
For my first shotgun which I wanted for home defense I went with a Saiga S-12. It looks like this.

It's receiver is basically an AK receiver with some obvious modifications, so you know it will be reliable even if you neglect it. It has semi-automatic action with 5-round magazine so you can defend yourself against multiple assailants or if you're a really bad shot :p Also because of it's gas operation and it's weight it has significantly less recoil than the popular pump action shotguns.

It's also very inexpensive and if you are into it there are a great number of modifications you can do to customize it and they have a very active online community if you need any help.

Go here and click on SAIGA SHOTGUNS on the left menu to see some examples of how you can customize this gun
I want a Saiga-12 so bad, but they are soooo expensive now. Just looking on Gunbroker, they were $1,000. and the mags for them are outragous too. $40-$50 for a 5rnd mag. F that.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,057
60
91
Originally posted by: SoulAssassin
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
As far as wall penetration, any round will penetrate drywall, which is what most home walls are made of. For home defense shotgun rounds you're not going to want 00 you want a light target load or bird shot. Lets face it if you'r egoing to shoot someone in your house the person is going to be no more than 15 feet from you. So you have 2 foot of gun before the muzzle of the barrel, so 13 feet, shotgun rounds don't really spread that much so at 12 feet the entry mound is going to be maybe 6inches across. even light game load with steel shot at that range is going to kill someone with a center mass or head shot.
See my previous link to the box of truth...bird shot won't do anything but piss them off...you just negated any other points you may have made with that comment.
Bird Shot is a terrible idea. It'll merely piss off the home invader unless you are very lucky.

Also, as a side note, I registered theboxotruth.com website and set it up and ran it for a year for Old Painless :p Now its overrun with advertisements and disorganized. I should see if I can get control back.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,513
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Originally posted by: SoulAssassin
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
As far as wall penetration, any round will penetrate drywall, which is what most home walls are made of. For home defense shotgun rounds you're not going to want 00 you want a light target load or bird shot. Lets face it if you'r egoing to shoot someone in your house the person is going to be no more than 15 feet from you. So you have 2 foot of gun before the muzzle of the barrel, so 13 feet, shotgun rounds don't really spread that much so at 12 feet the entry mound is going to be maybe 6inches across. even light game load with steel shot at that range is going to kill someone with a center mass or head shot.
See my previous link to the box of truth...bird shot won't do anything but piss them off...you just negated any other points you may have made with that comment.
https://www.mja.com.au/public/...0/herdson/herdson.html

#2 shot at close range, which is what we are talking about obliterated this guys heart. at less than 10 feet you think it would make significant would entry and cause massive blood loss? At over 30 feet I doubt it would be a killing shot.

#4 turkey loads will royally fuck your world at intermidiate ranges.
 

SoulAssassin

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
6,140
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Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: SoulAssassin
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
As far as wall penetration, any round will penetrate drywall, which is what most home walls are made of. For home defense shotgun rounds you're not going to want 00 you want a light target load or bird shot. Lets face it if you'r egoing to shoot someone in your house the person is going to be no more than 15 feet from you. So you have 2 foot of gun before the muzzle of the barrel, so 13 feet, shotgun rounds don't really spread that much so at 12 feet the entry mound is going to be maybe 6inches across. even light game load with steel shot at that range is going to kill someone with a center mass or head shot.
See my previous link to the box of truth...bird shot won't do anything but piss them off...you just negated any other points you may have made with that comment.
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html">https://www.mja.com.au/publ......rdson/herdson.html</a>

#2 shot at close range, which is what we are talking about obliterated this guys heart. at less than 10 feet you think it would make significant would entry and cause massive blood loss? At over 30 feet I doubt it would be a killing shot.

#4 turkey loads will royally fuck your world at intermidiate ranges.
You can't make the assumption that a point blank range shot would cause that type of damage. As previously stated...00 is what you want for home defense.
 

yuppiejr

Golden Member
Jul 31, 2002
1,318
0
0
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: SoulAssassin
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
As far as wall penetration, any round will penetrate drywall, which is what most home walls are made of. For home defense shotgun rounds you're not going to want 00 you want a light target load or bird shot. Lets face it if you'r egoing to shoot someone in your house the person is going to be no more than 15 feet from you. So you have 2 foot of gun before the muzzle of the barrel, so 13 feet, shotgun rounds don't really spread that much so at 12 feet the entry mound is going to be maybe 6inches across. even light game load with steel shot at that range is going to kill someone with a center mass or head shot.
See my previous link to the box of truth...bird shot won't do anything but piss them off...you just negated any other points you may have made with that comment.
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html">https://www.mja.com.au/publ......rdson/herdson.html</a>

#2 shot at close range, which is what we are talking about obliterated this guys heart. at less than 10 feet you think it would make significant would entry and cause massive blood loss? At over 30 feet I doubt it would be a killing shot.

#4 turkey loads will royally fuck your world at intermidiate ranges.
Do you actually know anything useful about firearms?

First off, the article you linked actually demonstrates why bird shot is a terrible choice... this guy shot himself *3* times before doing himself in:

--

"...The [FIRST] shot charge and wad entered the subcutaneous tissues at a low angle, travelled outside the rib cage, and exited on the left side of the chest. The remainder of the shot charge, wad and particulate matter then hit the rock retaining wall. The action of the shotgun was then cycled, ejecting the shell case onto the sand pile.

The man then walked to the vehicle. He loaded another cartridge from the magazine into the breech of the shotgun. Holding the shotgun to his right, with the left hand holding the barrel muzzle against his throat, he used the fingers or thumb of the right hand to pull the trigger. The [SECOND]shot charge and wad entered the right front side of his throat and exited on the left, taking a fragment of lower jaw with it.

After this second shot was fired, the shotgun most likely fell to the ground, where the action opened and ejected the shell case onto the ground. The impact also caused an unspent cartridge to fall out onto the ground.

The deceased then walked about 136 metres to the hill slope. He loaded the last cartridge from the magazine into the breech of the shotgun, then removed his shoes and lay on the ground on his left side. With the gun in front of him, he held the barrel with both hands, with the muzzle in contact with his chest. He used his toes to discharge the shotgun.

The [THIRD] shot and wad entered the lower chest area and penetrated up into the chest cavity, demolishing the heart. The shotgun then fell to the ground, causing the action to open. The body then slid a short distance down the slope. "


--

Summary:

Again, the guy had to shoot HIMSELF 3 times to succesfully "obliterate his heart," and only because on the third shot he managed to point the firearm under the rib cage where he avoided bone. I don't know if I'd be posting this article as support for your argument that birdshot is better than 00 buckshot as a defensive load. The guy shot himself at POINT BLANK RANGE twice and was able to walk around after...

This is, in fact, a perfect example of why anyone who tells you that using birdshot or turkey loads and wants to buy a Saiga-12 shotgun is a complete moron that should not be providing advice to anyone on home defense.
 

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