NC Repubs implement HUGE gamble called the modified flat tax

[buckshot24]

Perhaps I was unclear, the idea that we can't enact progressive taxation because we don't know the marginal utility for each individual is false. We have a great deal of knowledge of how that works generally, certainly far more than enough to enact policy based on it.

Obviously I couldn't have been saying that Congress couldn't enact progressive taxation because they have done so. That is sort of a strange interpretation to what I was saying.

I like how you think the idea of taxing a person in NYC the same as a person in Michigan shows the absurdity of progressive taxation, but don't think that taxing a person living in a hovel at the same rate as a person living in a mansion is a problem.

Again you've misinterpreted me. That isn't what I was trying to do. You've clarified your position so some of my statements don't apply any longer. I'm resigned to the fact that we will most likely always have a progressive tax system. We can't even cut a few billion out of Food stamps without there being a shit storm.

No, the question was Congress' power to tax. I was mentioning the AoC to provide a frame of reference to Congress's powers under the Constitution. They are EXTREMELY broad. In fact, it's hard for me to think of any enumerated power in the Constitution that is more sweeping than taxation, in particular income taxation. Even the limits on apportionment aren't there for that.

You've put extremely in all caps this time. I'm not sure what that means exactly. Is it the same as "incredibly broad"? I'm quite aware that Congress has the power to tax and I'm certain that they have the power to apply a progressive tax as well. We should probably get off of this bunny trail.

 

[Jhhnn]

Gamble? What gamble? It's a sure thing for N Carolina's wealthiest, just like the Bush tax cuts were a sure thing for a larger number of America's wealthiest.

They were going to "grow the economy" at a faster rate than revenue fell from lower rates, remember?

What really happened is that the Rich got a lot richer & the national debt basically doubled. That apparently doesn't matter to people whose ideology cripples their ability to learn & remember.

Doing the same thing over & over while expecting different results is one definition of insanity.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
I'm skeptical North Carolina is substantially more impacted by this trend than any of the other manufacturing states. Indeed, I suspect it is less impacted than the traditional manufacturing powerhouses, but admittedly have not looked for data.

I'm constantly amazed by the ignorance people have about the South.

NC is (or was) a "traditional manufacturing powerhouse".

E.g., here's a couple of industries that have been much wiped out by NAFTA etc.

Textiles

With the creation of the first cotton textile mill around 1815 by Michael Schenck in Lincoln County, North Carolina began a long process towards building its manufacturing industries. By 1900, the American textile industry was well on its way to moving to the Carolinas from New England.

North Carolina became the center of the textile business by the 1920s and continued outstanding success throughout the 20th Century.
But free trade regulations and fierce price competition from global developing countries triggered a steady relocation of the textile industry from the Carolinas to overseas production as the 21st Century began

http://www.historync.org/textiles.htm

Furniture

Throughout the end of the 21st century, North Carolina continued to lead the nation in the production of both upholstered and wooden household furniture. The furniture was slightly styled and inexpensive to meet the needs of all incomes levels, but lost its regional characteristics. Some local artisans still maintained a unique and high quality wooden product. High Point became known as the “the Furniture Capital of the World” in the 1980s during the golden era of NC furniture manufacturing.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Point,_North_Carolina#Evolution_of_Furniture_Industry

As to being a "powerhouse", we produce more than NY, Ohio, Michigan etc.

Here's a list of the top 10 states where manufacturing matters. We're listed at #4 but notice that we produce more ($88 billion) that the others.

CA and TX produce more, maybe one other state, that's all.

Be aware that the numbers above are from 2011. I.e., we'd already lost much of our manufacturing.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Cutting education, cutting unemployment benefits, limiting abortion access, not expanding medicaid, limiting voting access, allowing leaky garbage trucks and landfills...

And this little nugget...
http://www.wral.com/at-nc-environmental-regulator-loyalty-to-mccrory-runs-deep/12755208/

And this one...
http://www.wral.com/proposal-to-shift-judicial-discipline-raises-questions/12760446/

And this one...
http://www.wral.com/power-struggle-develops-over-defending-nc-laws/12722343/

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is.

A couple of things:

1. All good reasons to try to do something to get the economy moving. E.g., we now owe the federal govt several billion $'s from our extended unemployment benefits. We just can't keep borrowing. We need people back to work so (1) they are off unemployment benefits and (2) more revenue is received by our depleted unemployment insurance program.

2. But yeah, in a crappy economy with no real recovery we're going to have serious revenue shortfalls. Debt can only go so far, eventually you're forced to cut expenditures, at least until your economy recovers. We're tired of waiting around down here.

Fern

 

[Fern]

-snip-
Doing the same thing over & over while expecting different results is one definition of insanity.

Sounds like Obama's and the Dems economic plan(s).

Fern

 

[Engineer]

Sounds like Obama's and the Dems economic plan(s).

Fern

Sounds like both sides economic plans....don't kid yourself that "your side" is any better than the other side.

 

[Bowfinger]

I'm constantly amazed by the ignorance people have about the South.

NC is (or was) a "traditional manufacturing powerhouse".

E.g., here's a couple of industries that have been much wiped out by NAFTA etc.



http://www.historync.org/textiles.htm



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Point,_North_Carolina#Evolution_of_Furniture_Industry

As to being a "powerhouse", we produce more than NY, Ohio, Michigan etc.

Here's a list of the top 10 states where manufacturing matters. We're listed at #4 but notice that we produce more ($88 billion) that the others.

CA and TX produce more, maybe one other state, that's all.

Be aware that the numbers above are from 2011. I.e., we'd already lost much of our manufacturing.

Fern

Sorry, Fern. I wasn't trying to slight your state. When I think of manufacturing, I usually think of rust belt type manufacturing. Clearly textiles qualify too. If it makes you feel any better, I don't know what Idaho manufactures either, so it's not a south thing. I am generally only randomly aware, or not, of different states' industries. You will note that I explicitly acknowledged I "admittedly have not looked for data".

That said, I note you didn't actually address my points. Can you show that North Carolina has been substantially more impacted than the OTHER big manufacturing powerhouses? How about NC's effective tax rates? Are they notably above average? And then there's the GOP's favorite snake oil, tinkle-down economics. Any thoughts on how it's going to actually work well for NC when it's been such a scam elsewhere?

 

[Fern]

-snip-
That said, I note you didn't actually address my points. Can you show that North Carolina has been substantially more impacted than the OTHER big manufacturing powerhouses? How about NC's effective tax rates? Are they notably above average? And then there's the GOP's favorite snake oil, tinkle-down economics. Any thoughts on how it's going to actually work well for NC when it's been such a scam elsewhere?

I've already shown 2 industries where were top in the nation and got hammered. I would think it fairly logical to conclude that we got hammered more than any other state since we had more of that manufacturing than any other state. And certainly being one of the largest manufacturing states, outsourcing really hurt us. (Somewhat unrelated since it's not totally due to outsourcing, but we were a big tabacco producer and cigarette manufacturer, that included manufacture of related paper products too. Almost all gone now, most moved overseas.)

Tax rates - Remember we're competing with other S.E states for manufacturers moving in here. CA rates, while higher are irrelevant. Below is a list of state corp rates, we're higher than our neighbors (GA, AL, SC, FL etc.)

http://taxfoundation.org/article/state-corporate-income-tax-rates-2000-2013

Individual tax rates. Again, we're higher than everybody else: http://taxfoundation.org/article_ns/state-individual-income-tax-rates-2000-2013

I don't believe this has anything to do with the theory of "trickle down". As I mentioned earlier in this thread, we're listed as something like 46th on the list of attractive places (states) for business to move to. With this change we are expected to move up to 17th.

So, hopefully we get more businesses here bringing more jobs, and we're not talking fast food.

Fern

 

[Jhhnn]

Sounds like Obama's and the Dems economic plan(s).

Fern

Thirty years of trickle down supply side free trade deregulated finance jerb creator reaganomics later, you expect miracles from Obama, even as Repubs in the legislature hobble every effort?

What country are you from, anyway? Fringewhackistan? Wingnutlandia? Glenbeckistan?

 

[Engineer]

From this article, NC is #6 on the list of lost jobs to China. California has lost far more than any other.....

(note: Not sure of losses to other countries such as Mexico, etc).

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44673674/ns/business-careers/t/states-losing-most-jobs-china/#.UgbaRT9Hh0w

10. Georgia
Net job change: -87,700
Jobs lost: 101,200
Jobs gained: 13,500

9. Massachusetts
Net job change: -88,600
Jobs lost: 99,300
Jobs gained: 10,700

8. Ohio
Net job change: -103,500
Jobs lost: 124,100
Jobs gained: 13,500

7. Pennsylvania
Net job change: -106,900
Jobs lost: 127,200
Jobs gained: 20,200

6. North Carolina
Net job change: -107,800
Jobs lost: 122,400
Jobs gained: 14,600

5. Florida
Net job change: -114,400
Jobs lost: 134,500
Jobs gained: 20,100

4. Illinois
Net job change: -118,200
Jobs lost: 139,400
Jobs gained: 21,200

3. New York
Net job change: -161,400
Jobs lost: 183,300
Jobs gained: 21,900

2. Texas
Net job change: -232,800
Jobs lost: 269,300
Jobs gained: 36,400

1. California
Net job change: -454,600
Jobs lost: 519,000
Jobs gained: 64,300

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

A couple of things:

1. All good reasons to try to do something to get the economy moving. E.g., we now owe the federal govt several billion $'s from our extended unemployment benefits. We just can't keep borrowing. We need people back to work so (1) they are off unemployment benefits and (2) more revenue is received by our depleted unemployment insurance program.

2. But yeah, in a crappy economy with no real recovery we're going to have serious revenue shortfalls. Debt can only go so far, eventually you're forced to cut expenditures, at least until your economy recovers. We're tired of waiting around down here.

Fern

You don't grow the economy by cutting it.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Sounds like both sides economic plans....don't kid yourself that "your side" is any better than the other side.

You should read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/magazine/06Economic-t.html
Actually everyone should read it.

 

[buckshot24]

You should read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/magazine/06Economic-t.html
Actually everyone should read it.

Krugman looks like a child molester.

 

[Jhhnn]

Krugman looks like a child molester.

When argumentatively challenged, just spread the slime, invoke the superficial. Works every time, at least for the weak minded.

Image over substance suckers 'em every time.

 

[Bowfinger]

From this article, NC is #6 on the list of lost jobs to China. California has lost far more than any other.....

(note: Not sure of losses to other countries such as Mexico, etc).

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44673674/ns/business-careers/t/states-losing-most-jobs-china/#.UgbaRT9Hh0w

Thanks. That's the sort of data I was asking for. Anecdotes may be interesting, but they're of limited value in policy analysis. North Carolina is 18th in percentage of jobs lost to Mexico, according to this link: http://www.epi.org/publication/heading_south_u-s-mexico_trade_and_job_displacement_after_nafta1/ . The details are in the .pdf.

 

[Engineer]

Thanks. That's the sort of data I was asking for. Anecdotes may be interesting, but they're of limited value in policy analysis. North Carolina is 18th in percentage of jobs lost to Mexico, according to this link: http://www.epi.org/publication/heading_south_u-s-mexico_trade_and_job_displacement_after_nafta1/ . The details are in the .pdf.

That's for 2010 only, no?

 

[Bowfinger]

That's for 2010 only, no?

Good question. It appears to be cumulative through 2010 based on the initial narrative ("as of 2010"). The title on the chart is a bit ambiguous, however.

 

[Engineer]

Good question. It appears to be cumulative through 2010 based on the initial narrative ("as of 2010"). The title on the chart is a bit ambiguous, however.

Still seems to be 2010 after reading more. Regardless, NC has lost far more jobs to China than to Mexico. China took clothing and woodworking jobs and Mexico seems to have taken the appliance and automotive markets.

 

[Jhhnn]

What a magnificent sucker play. Promises of job creation fly in the face of the reality created by those making the promises, the reality that if you won't work for Mexican or Chinese wages, they'll just hire Mexicans & Chinese, regardless of their personal tax rates.

Lower taxes just means more capital to offshore jobs faster.

 

[Darwin333]

Oh so if that millionth dollar was going toward making the payroll for your paycheck or not, it's just luxury.

No pay for you this week! That's just a luxury.

Money spent on payroll isn't included in a persons taxable income...

 

[Darwin333]

That doesn't seem much different than what we have now.
If someone starves in this country then they have no excuse. Our poor are fat. Poor people aren't missing many meals.

That is true but its true because of social programs. Those social programs are paid for by tax dollars. If we taxes everyone the exact same we would take so much of the poors money that we would have to give them even more social programs resulting in even more taxes.

I think if it is based upon a set rate for every dollar earned then that is as fair as we can make it.

Again, what does fair have to do with anything? As my mother always said, life isn't fair. Even if you wanted to talk about "fairness" its a very subjective view. I don't think its fair to treat a poor persons income the same as a rich persons. A few percent of the poor persons money means FAR more to them and their standard of living than a few percent of a rich persons money.

The rich pays more into the society that they are thriving in as well. I get your point. I'm not trying to paint a bleak picture for the rich. Even with our progressive tax system almost anybody would rather be rich than not.

Almost? Lol, anyone who wouldn't would, imo, be a fool and statistically irelevant.

Again, the poor are fat in this country. They aren't missing meals now and they wouldn't miss them in a world where everybody pays the same tax rate.

That is a very good thing. Hungry people and first world society don't really go hand in hand. Hunger is one hellofa motivator and more often than not it motivates them to do really bad shit, like shoot you in the back of your head for your food. I don't care how much of a Rambo people think they are, its kind of hard to dodge a bullet you don't see coming and most people would harm an innocent person before watching their child starve.

The poor might not be able to afford xbox's or large plasma tvs if they had to pay the same tax rate as the rich.

So you agree that poor people tend to spend all of their money on stuff that helps our economy. You don't get to be wealthy by spending all of your income every year....

 

[Anarchist420]

^^^^^ Agree that broadening the tax base make the poor more dependent on welfare, especially unemployment benefits.

I'm unhappy with Rand Paul because he favors allowing the U.S. govt to collect revenue, going even as far as supporting the income tax.