GuitarDaddy
Lifer
- Nov 9, 2004
- 11,465
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SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
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My point was that the Suns can hang with arguably the best team in the league with one superstar and one good player, and 3 "role players" (see scrubs). The Pistons D locked them down in the 2nd half which made the difference, otherwise PHO would have ran away with it being up 14 at the half.
How many other teams in the league have one superstar (or even two), one good player, and 3 scrubs with 53 wins and a 2 seed? Kobe? Lebron? Carmelo? Iverson? Wade and Shaq? Kidd and VC? No to all of em. Nash has done the most for his team with less, which looks like MVP to me.
Agree, Chauncy is better on D but don't think that makes up for the Offensive stats, especially the FG%. That shows that Nash is taking much higher % shots than Billups, which IMO equates to smarter selection.
iamme
Lifer
- Jul 21, 2001
- 21,058
- 3
- 0
you make it sound like the Suns have no one. Marion is not just one "good" player. the dude averages 21 pts, 12 reb and a whole lot of fantasy-wet-dream stats. also, Diaw is averaging 13, 6, 7. Raja Bell is averaging 15 ppg. before Kurt Thomas got hurt, he was a very serviceable big guy.
i look at Kobe as having FAR less than Nash does. Odom......then....smush parker? yes, the Suns are better than Lakers, but you make it sound like the Suns are a one man team.
i tend to agree with NeoV that nash thrives in a run&gun offense. it should take away from what Nash has done, but i don't think Nash is an MVP candidate if he's not on the Suns.
smarter selection, maybe. Nash has always been a great shooter. but if you're not playing defense, one could argue that it makes offense a whole lot easier.
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
- 143
- 106
I had stated that there would be a slight stat inflation but only if players are hitting their shots. And to hit your shots, you have to get good open looks.
Let's look at this from a mathematical standpoint:
Team 1 takes 100 shots, but only makes 35% of them, so 35.
Team 2 takes 90 shots, but makes 40%, so 36.
Now if Team 1 shoots 40%, they win by 4 more baskets. This fortifies my point, that even in run and gun systems you still have to make your shots to even get the very slight stat inflation.
It's not a coincidence that the Suns have the highest 3pt% in the league, they get good open looks and drain them. The system doesn't help you make shots, good passing/shooting does. Otherwise, if the system really made that much of a difference, every team would use that system.
Nash would do fine on a half court team, you make it sound like they're night and day. Especially a team like the Pistons, Nash would have a field day with assists b/c they're so dam athletic. And especially on a team like Detroit, one person not being great on D is trivial because the other 4 pick up the slack. A slower offense doesn't mean you don't still have to practice fundamentals such as crisp ball movement, smart shot selection, and hitting your shots.
- Oct 7, 2001
- 15,908
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instead of just saying those ignorant oneliners, why don't you guys follow sp33demon and iamme's example of what a real discussion is like? :roll:
although I disagree w/ sp33demon, he at least points out good arguments that he believes in; and he disagreed w/ my somewhat kobe-boasting-fanboy post w/ a reference and solid arguments. Not to say that I agree w/ him, of course not
but still, instead of just saying he's not even on your top 5, list a VALID reason why.
it's truly a no-brainer that Kobe is by far, has the best individual performance, and another no-brainer that if Kobe wasn't on the team, Lakers have no chance in hell to be a .500 team. You also have to look into how the Lakers surrounding Kobe is still VERY young compared to the pheonix team. A vet PG probably cannot thrive w/ young players. Only vet players shoot with no hesitation, and are do exactly what they are supposed to do.
--
I saw Nash play @ Staples when they came to play against the Clips. I have to tell you though, Nash is one fun fun fun player to watch. (reason why the Suns is my 2nd favorite team in the NBA, behind Lakers
. Sorry, I was born w/ a Lakers shirt on, I'll always be a loyal Lakers fan). Hopefully, Amare's going to be 100% next season, and the Sun will be an absolutely friggin joy to watch.--
I also think a player who's not getting any attention whatsoever, but deserves some praise, is Sam Cassell. Every team he's been with, he makes that team a playoff team. After he left Timberwolves, hell what happened? Now the Clips, all of a sudden, is a great team. OF course, they have Elton Brand, Livingston, and Kamon (sp?) being good all of a sudden... But look @ their offense. Their offense starts w/ Cassell. (on another note, I like calling cassell an Alien or Chihuahua, because, he looks like one.)
--
I disagree w/ the article you posted sp33demon, because, Phil wants his players to play a more setup offense-defense; probably because it allows for getting back on the defensive end quicker, and setting up more solid individual/team defense. Lakers is probably a better defensive team than Phoenix. I'm not sure if the coaching staff of the Lakers will allow for a system of run-gun offense.
DainBramaged
Lifer
- Jun 19, 2003
- 23,454
- 41
- 91
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
- 143
- 106
Odom is averaging 15, 9, and 5.5 assists. I agree with the article above, IMO Nash would probably elevate Odom in the 21ppg range like Sean Marion (21, 12, 1.8ass). Marion is a slightly better rebounder but Odom is a better passer.
Smush Parker: 11, 3, and 3ass compared to Raja Bell at 14.8, 3.2, 2.6ass, pretty close except by a couple of ppg. Chris Mihm is avg 10.4ppg and 6.4reb, Diaw 13 and 7. All I'm seeing here is that the scrubs on the Lakers are scoring slightly less compared to scrubs on PHO, the other stats are pretty much a wash.
So does Nash really have more to work with than Kobe, or do the better ppg of Nash's teammates reflect his passing ability? And does that collective effort of the Suns translate into more W's (i.e. more even distribution of points scored through Nash's assists)?
Oh man Kobe was outstanding this season. You know there are always the arguments on who helps their team the most and their team's situation and such, but I think that the MVP should go to the downright best player. Kobe showed that he is the best this season. Some sports commentators were saying that at this point in their career, Kobe is better than MJ. Im starting to agree.
I completely stand by my statement that although Nash is a very good player, the Sun's offensive philosophy is the only thing putting him in MVP consideration. To give him credit for the Suns making and taking an NBA record number of 3 pointers is to ignore the fact that they are taking that many 3 pointers in the first place.
Also, those of you saying that Kobe>Jordan are smoking crack...put Jordan in his prime in the league today, with the lack of hand checking, and he goes for 50 a night
Also, those of you saying that Kobe>Jordan are smoking crack...put Jordan in his prime in the league today, with the lack of hand checking, and he goes for 50 a night
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
- 143
- 106
Neo, for one second ignore the record number of 3's made and focus on this: if they are shooting almost 40% from 3pt land as a team, then why the heck shouldn't they rely on it? You can't tell me that a coach wouldn't use the 3 as a weapon if a team like the Suns were absolutely scorching the basket from the arc. Percentage has nothing to do with whether you're "taking too many or not", it measures how many you've made/attempted. If they were making a very low percentage, say <30%, then you could use that argument (that they are taking too many), for the simple fact that they aren't making the shot enough to rely on it. But not at 39-40%, any coach would be nuts not to incorporate the 3 into their scheme at that percentage.
Also, you can't refute the fact that Nash's uncanny ability to get his guys an open look has strongly contributed to such a gaudy 3pt %. No offensive scheme can make guys hit a 3 pointer, they either have the talent to or not. Being wide open certainly helps a lot more.
I agree on the Kobe > Jordan, that's just absurd Laker fanboi propaganda. Comparing two eras with two different sets of rules is funny.
Only an idiot would mention Kobe>Jordan, for with today's rules Jordan in his prime would drop 50 every second game.
Nash clearly deserves to be MVP - despite losing three starters!, still won their division. And as someone pointed out, the Lakers scrub basically average similar numbers to the Phoenix scrubs, but Nash makes everyone around him better. Kobe you can argue, makes them worse!
Nash clearly deserves to be MVP - despite losing three starters!, still won their division. And as someone pointed out, the Lakers scrub basically average similar numbers to the Phoenix scrubs, but Nash makes everyone around him better. Kobe you can argue, makes them worse!
Inspector Jihad
Lifer
- Apr 17, 2005
- 13,465
- 3
- 81
have any of you who don't think Kobe should be MVP ever seen more than the few nationally televisied laker games in the last two years?
Other than these last few weeks when kwame, odom show up, all the Lakers have is kobe.
Odom is here today, gone tomorrow. He seeming has no desire to play hard.
as for the rest they just stand a watch kobe. half the time they don't even bother playing. I can't see remember how many times Kobe gets trapped and the others don't come over to help. I can be certain Kobe doesn't not want to take 30+ shots a game he wants the others to shoot. But what has happen these last to years is he pass the ball and they'd run around clueless then hand it back to kobe with 5 seconds or so on the clock and expect bailout from him. They are too afraid to take a shot.
Maybe its Nash, the coach, but of the times I watched the suns play the players on the sun don't stand around and watch. they seize the opportunity to play. They will take shots even if they miss.
As for Kobe/Jordan thing. people need to give it a rest. Jordan is Jordan. Kobe is Kobe. there will never be another Michael Jordan. Kobe, Tmac, Lebron, dwade, and any other future players are all there own person. On top of that they play in different eras.
I might as well claim Wilt is the greatest ever. they had to change rules to make things fair. who cares if at 7'2 during his days made him a towering giant over everyone else.
Other than these last few weeks when kwame, odom show up, all the Lakers have is kobe.
Odom is here today, gone tomorrow. He seeming has no desire to play hard.
as for the rest they just stand a watch kobe. half the time they don't even bother playing. I can't see remember how many times Kobe gets trapped and the others don't come over to help. I can be certain Kobe doesn't not want to take 30+ shots a game he wants the others to shoot. But what has happen these last to years is he pass the ball and they'd run around clueless then hand it back to kobe with 5 seconds or so on the clock and expect bailout from him. They are too afraid to take a shot.
Maybe its Nash, the coach, but of the times I watched the suns play the players on the sun don't stand around and watch. they seize the opportunity to play. They will take shots even if they miss.
As for Kobe/Jordan thing. people need to give it a rest. Jordan is Jordan. Kobe is Kobe. there will never be another Michael Jordan. Kobe, Tmac, Lebron, dwade, and any other future players are all there own person. On top of that they play in different eras.
I might as well claim Wilt is the greatest ever. they had to change rules to make things fair. who cares if at 7'2 during his days made him a towering giant over everyone else.
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
- 143
- 106
Inspector Jihad
Lifer
- Apr 17, 2005
- 13,465
- 3
- 81
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