Nationwide Protest against bush's illegal occupation!

[mwtgg]

So basically...

rleemhui: That statement is bullshit. Prove it.
Steeplerot: You're blind, wake up maaaaaaan.

 

[Steeplerot]

I backed my stuff up nice way to put words in my mouth, if he has a probelm with the sources and not believing when there are corraberating accounts on the issue it's not my problem.
I can not force someone to change their mind after a lifetime of watching and trusting what they see on tv.

 

[artikk]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I backed my stuff up nice way to put words in my mouth, if he has a probelm with the sources and not believing when there are corraberating accounts on the issue it's not my problem.
I can not force someone to change their mind after a lifetime of watching and trusting what they see on tv.

How is insulting others proves your stuff?
You know what. I'm tired of your whining about the war and the corporate media. Yet when you go to prove something you use the corporate media to prove your point. How is that logical?😕
We went to war in Iraq for many reasons. ONE of them is WMds which were't found. The other is terrorism. It's not possible to leave Iraq now yet the protesters don't care. They don't care what happens if suddenly Us troops left Iraq. What will happen is total chaos: on political, social, and economical levels. We can't leave Iraq now. We have to finish what we started. However, if we do leave Iraq and leave country in ruins, America will fall to a new low in the global perspective/views of other countries.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
then get off your elitest racist "political incorrectness" trip and wake up.
You are no better then the fascist you want to see gunned down so bad. your just hiding behind a flag.

More claims of racism and elitism.

Do we have to have US border patrol in China, Indonesia, and Australia for it to not be considered racist?

Give me a break.

We share borders with Mexico and Canada. Maybe there is an illegal immigration problem with Canada that I don't know about...

But from where I sit in southern Arizona, the problem is with Mexico, pure and simple, and people who are not willing to acknowledge that for fear of being labeled is pure stupidity and ignorance.

I could care less if they were here illegally or not, working or not. The problem stems from lack of accountability in that because they are no legal citizens they cannot be held to consequences for breaking our laws, etc. They can rear end people, steal, rape, and kidnap and fear no consequence because they can run back to Mexico and even if they are caught they get a free bus ride back anyway. I know a lady who almost had her baby yanked from her hands by two illegal Mexicans (the illegal part was learned after the incident). Fortunately there were two law officers in the store that came out to assist, and one of them spoke spanish. When asked what they were doing, the illegal Mexicans said that blue eyed blond haired white baby was theirs... They were never prosecuted; she was told all they could do was send them back to Mexico? She now carries a .357 magnum on her. Good for her.

I have also been rear ended FOUR times. One was a stuck up old white lady in a Lexus who stopped, waited for police, and her insurance covered all my damages without question. The other three times were Mexicans, all who fled the scene in haste, one after giving me fake and expired insurance and registration. I also locked my brakes in an intersection going 45 or so just about to pass through a green light, when this busted ass truck makes a left turn in front of me going about 5 mph in no hurry to get out of the way, and if that wasn?t bad enough, he had a TRAILER making it even longer. The driver was Mexican, and flipped me off like it was MY fault!!! It was as if he WANTED me to hit him. Lo and behold, a SON MEX license plate.

How would you, an American citizen, like to go to India, Africa, or China, get a better paying job, and be able to do whatever you want, whenever you want, without fear of law, be PROTECTED by law against retaliation, and the worst possible thing that can happen to you if you get caught for any offence is that you get sent back home to the USA, where you can catch a plane back a week later?

This is a simplified look at what the real problems stemming from illegal immigration. It's not the economy or cheap labor that people complain about. (Welfare is what is keeping white trash in trailers leaving those cheap labor jobs wide open for immigrants? but that is another story). It's the degradation of society into a lawless ghetto where people have absolutely no respect for others, their environment or themselves. I don?t care how bad it is in Mexico, that?s no excuse to bring that behavior here. If you want to do things the way they are done in Mexico, then stay in Mexico. We don't do that shlt here.

This is why illegal immigration is one MAJOR area I totally disagree with Bush. And Vicente Fox is a fascist prick who won't make any deals unless they are in his favor or make the SW part of Mexico. I say for starters we have a law like any other country in the world that holds non citizen foreigners to American laws when they are on American soil, and we require Mexico to cooperate. An immigrant breaks the law here, we throw them in jail; Mexico has no problem throwing Americans in jail for driving without insurance, etc (and rightly so). We should do the same.


As for war and occupation... well my first natural reaction when confronted with someone who wants me dead is also to kill them first.

I'll give you this though, Iraq wasn't the best place to start; it certainly wouldnt have been at the top of my list, when other more places are openly making public threats...

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: rleemhui

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: rleemhui
infohawk, try and avoid the sweeping generalizations. This country is about 50/50 rebulican/democrat. I don't think that you can really say that one side has no backing behind what they do. He posted his opinion and didn't insult anyone. Either answer his questions or sit back and let others please. For the last few posts this has actually stayed civilized without too much in the way of insults being tossed at eachother. Lets not start that again

Thanks for the advice, noob.

And that just solves everything...I am a noob. Call someone a name and you must now be right with all your opinions. Leave the name calling aside and back up what you saw.

What exactly do you want me to back up now?

Yes, you being a noob accounts for a lot. If you want to look back at my posting history from the start to see all steps of a reasonable poster faced with P&N numbnut reasoning, please go for it. Now if you want me to get serious than leave the appeals to popularity out of your posts. 😉

 

[Steeplerot]

Very ironic that whole rant came from someone whose grandfather or g.grandfather was a immigrant just like the mexicans.

And they to were trashed and accused for every wrong in the country just as you do to them now....will people ever learn?
Or is it you don't like their skin color or maybe afraid of *gasp* your children learning a diffrent language in school (like everyone else learns english) ....I wonder..hmmmm
the mexican american war was a straight up land grab just like what we did to the native americans.
If Mexicans wish to move into my neighborhoods and set up shop I welcome ALL New Americans. THere is plenty of room here in the land of the free. (supposedly free)
Now how is that elitest? About as far as you can get from the definition. Try again.

 

[artikk]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Very ironic that whole rant came from someone whose grandfather or g.grandfather was a immigrant just like the mexicans.

And they to were trashed and accused for every wrong in the country just as you do to them now....will people ever learn?
Or is it you don't like their skin color or maybe afraid of *gasp* your children learning a diffrent language in school (like everyone else learns english) ....I wonder..hmmmm

nevermind.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: mwtgg
So basically...

rleemhui: That statement is bullshit. Prove it.
Steeplerot: You're blind, wake up maaaaaaan.

The problem with that is all of his arguments have pretty much been debunked yet he continues on some strange train of thought. There are big holes in his knowledge base as well. Comparing the deaths in the battle of Gettysburg to Iraq makes completely no sense. As does bringing up the lack of rights for women after the First Gulf War. As I told him the country's economy was devastated. 70% unemployment rates, shelled out infrastructure etc. When things are bad the weakest are the first to feel it, in this case it was the women.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: russianpower

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I backed my stuff up nice way to put words in my mouth, if he has a probelm with the sources and not believing when there are corraberating accounts on the issue it's not my problem.
I can not force someone to change their mind after a lifetime of watching and trusting what they see on tv.

How is insulting others proves your stuff?
You know what. I'm tired of your whining about the war and the corporate media. Yet when you go to prove something you use the corporate media to prove your point. How is that logical?😕
We went to war in Iraq for many reasons. ONE of them is WMds which were't found. The other is terrorism. It's not possible to leave Iraq now yet the protesters don't care. They don't care what happens if suddenly Us troops left Iraq. What will happen is total chaos: on political, social, and economical levels. We can't leave Iraq now. We have to finish what we started. However, if we do leave Iraq and leave country in ruins, America will fall to a new low in the global perspective/views of other countries.

leave the country in ruins? what would you call the bombs dropping on the people right now?
(the post above was directed to exman or whatever his name is.)

 

[ColdZero]

A little twist:

Very ironic that your whole rant came from somebody who is trying to promote (I think) civil liberties and equality.

Are conservatives to blame for every problem in this country? As you seem to be blaming? Will you ever learn?

Or is it that you don't like opinions other than your own or maybe *gasp* that somebody could think differently than you do. I wonder...hmmmmm

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Very ironic that whole rant came from someone whose grandfather or g.grandfather was a immigrant just like the mexicans.

And they to were trashed and accused for every wrong in the country just as you do to them now....will people ever learn?
Or is it you don't like their skin color or maybe afraid of *gasp* your children learning a diffrent language in school (like everyone else learns english) ....I wonder..hmmmm
the mexican american war was a straight up land grab just like what we did to the native americans.
If Mexicans wish to move into my neighborhoods and set up shop I welcome ALL New Americans. THere is plenty of room here in the land of the free. (supposedly free)
Now how is that elitest? About as far as you can get from the definition. Try again.

If they want to set up shop great, I'm all for legal immigrants chasing the American dream. You know very well that is not what I am against. Try again.

FYI this is America, we speak ENGLISH here. I don't go to Mexico waving American flags and trying to force everyone to learn english. What gives them the right to do that here in America with spanish and Mexican flags? Why should I have to opt in for english phone bills because they want to make the default spanish? This is American not Mexico, and the language of America is english pure and simple. Why should I have to learn another language in my own country? Why should I feel like the foriegner in my own country? I will learn spanish when I want to, or when I feel like I need to visit Mexico. Not because my country is being eroded and invaded.

I know Chinese and Vietnamese people who have learned english and studied American history to become citizens, and work very hard. Why shouldn't it be the same for everyone else? When you go to someone elses country you adapt to THEIR culture, and that applies to me visiting any country outside the US as well. Most people go to other countries to learn other ways of living or to take part in other cultures and interact with other societies, etc. From what I have observed living in Tucson for over 20 years it seems like Mexicans don't want to become part of American, they just want to swarm over everything like locusts and destroy and assimilate.

I also find it funny how every time someone talks about 'multicultural' and 'tolerance' it always magically seems to imply spanish as an official language. Why don't we skip the political correctness crap and just call it what you really want: mexicultural.



And if you want to talk about land grabs, there is practically no country in the world whose land wasn't taken from someone else at some point. Even the Iraqis, Israelis, Arabs, and Palastinians took their land from the Assyrians (among other civilizations that were there first), etc. How far back do you care to go?

 

[Sunbird]

Originally posted by: russianpower

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I backed my stuff up nice way to put words in my mouth, if he has a probelm with the sources and not believing when there are corraberating accounts on the issue it's not my problem.
I can not force someone to change their mind after a lifetime of watching and trusting what they see on tv.

How is insulting others proves your stuff?
You know what. I'm tired of your whining about the war and the corporate media. Yet when you go to prove something you use the corporate media to prove your point. How is that logical?😕
We went to war in Iraq for many reasons. ONE of them is WMds which were't found. The other is terrorism. It's not possible to leave Iraq now yet the protesters don't care. They don't care what happens if suddenly Us troops left Iraq. What will happen is total chaos: on political, social, and economical levels. We can't leave Iraq now. We have to finish what we started. However, if we do leave Iraq and leave country in ruins, America will fall to a new low in the global perspective/views of other countries.

America can fall lower?! :Q

 

[artikk]

Originally posted by: Sunbird

Originally posted by: russianpower

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I backed my stuff up nice way to put words in my mouth, if he has a probelm with the sources and not believing when there are corraberating accounts on the issue it's not my problem.
I can not force someone to change their mind after a lifetime of watching and trusting what they see on tv.

How is insulting others proves your stuff?
You know what. I'm tired of your whining about the war and the corporate media. Yet when you go to prove something you use the corporate media to prove your point. How is that logical?😕
We went to war in Iraq for many reasons. ONE of them is WMds which were't found. The other is terrorism. It's not possible to leave Iraq now yet the protesters don't care. They don't care what happens if suddenly Us troops left Iraq. What will happen is total chaos: on political, social, and economical levels. We can't leave Iraq now. We have to finish what we started. However, if we do leave Iraq and leave country in ruins, America will fall to a new low in the global perspective/views of other countries.

America can fall lower?! :Q

🙂 It can. Any country that fell as low as it did immediately after the occupation of Iraq, can fall lower.(ie Abu Ghraib)

 

[Sunbird]

Just a question russianpower, you mentioned one of the reasons for the invasion of Iraq had something to do with terrorism.

Do you mean the US went in there to stop Saddam Hussian (Sodamn Insane as Weird Al likes to call him in his songs) from terrorising his own people, or you talking about something else?

Cause there are dozens of other governments that terrorise their citizens as well, and I don't see the US even talking about going to kick their ass.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: ColdZero
I can't believe I actually read this whole thread. I was actually amazed and pissed off at what was being said in this thread. I'm seriously angry as I write this post.

This basically sums it up:
"How does laying down in traffic and stopping a city for 2 hours promote your cause?"
"Wake up and stop watching TV"

That?s basically it.

Here's what I think of the situation. I think that war protesters who go to these huge gatherings and disrupt the daily lives of other people are out of touch with reality. I think the problem is that my generation (I'm 23) has never had a cause and may of us have grasped at the war in Iraq to be our way to rebel against the government.

I ask, how will stopping traffic in a city, yelling things at people, violence against the police or telling people that they are blind and need to stop watching TV solve anything? I want an answer. Don't tell me to stop watching TV, don't tell me to stop buying the corporate media, don't call me a lemming, tell me how this will solve anything. Explain it to me, don't yell in my face and insult me. I consider myself an educated person and expect to be treated as such if you wish me to listen.

Personally I think that protesters are quite possibly the biggest lemmings around. You stated in one of your earlier posts, "I won't debate numbers" when speaking of the 5,500 service men and women who did not wish to go to Iraq. Don't want to debate numbers? Are you even serious? How can debating the FACTS of a situation EVER be wrong or irrelevant? I find that most people who are anti this and anti that really have little idea of the FACTS behind a situation. Instead they insinuate that everybody who does not agree with them is "blind", "a lemming", "buying into the corporate media". I won't pretend for a minute that the media does not have a profound, manipulative effect on everybody's lives, but people are still individuals and still have their own opinions.

Now here is my second question. Lets assume for the moment that we all agreed that the war is bad and Iraq needs to be left alone. ?Bring the troops home? as you said. How could we possibly do this? You want us to just leave Iraq now that we've caused the situation over there? How could we possibly just leave with the country in the state it is in? Nothing against Iraq, but do you think they are politically, militarily and social able to support their own country without it falling into chaos? The USA leaving now would throw the country into even further chaos than it already is in, that is not a realistic option.

You want to protest the war, fine, give a better solution to the situation at hand or nobody will take you seriously.

I?d like a reply to my questions. Like I said before, don?t call me a fool, idiot, tell me to stop watching TV, believing corporations or anything like that, I want a straight answer. We are all educated individuals here, insults are not necessary. If you cannot do that, then in my opinion, your opinions have no validity if you cannot support them.

Hold on, hold on, take a deep breath here. You are amazingly biased. Look at the way you described the protestors above. I have been to my fair share of protests, and they are VERY civil for the most part. Of course there are one or two people who are very passionate and step out of line. But for the most part the majority are very reasonable. When I was at the New York protest there was only one truly bad incident; someone burned a float. Now in a crowd of over 500,000 people that is a very clean slate.

As for people needing to find a cause to latch on to, I must say that is a very convincing argument to those already convinced. The real problem today is not the protestors, but the young people NOT protesting. I fear we have a generation here who has been raised on South Park and the Simpsons, a generation who has such a lack of passion and such an apathy towards life that they find the sick shenanigance portrayed on South Park and Jackass to be some sort of 'philosophy'. I like to call them Generation Soul-less. Glued to their CRT's fragging things left and right, watching anime with no intent or purpose, inventing sick Fraternity initiation scemes. This is the new youth of America. I think the only thing that can wake these people up is a draft. The 60's were fueled by passion and concern for your fellow man. It seems as if this modern decade is fueled by copious amounts ecstasy, alcohol and self-absorbtion. They have to be there and see the horror first hand. Then they won't laugh the next time they see a video of a man getting cut apart by machine gun fire.

 

[artikk]

Originally posted by: Sunbird
Just a question russianpower, you mentioned one of the reasons for the invasion of Iraq had something to do with terrorism.

Do you mean the US went in there to stop Saddam Hussian (Sodamn Insane as Weird Al likes to call him in his songs) from terrorising his own people, or you talking about something else?

Cause there are dozens of other governments that terrorise their citizens as well, and I don't see the US even talking about going to kick their ass.

I was talking about Saddam. Although it would be nice to rid the world of all terrorism. If the Iraq operation would have been more succesful than it is now, maybe other modern nations would follow the example and join in the effort like condemning terrorism/diplomatic( that was not meant as a suggestion to invade countries with dictatorships and terrorist ties.)
I'm going to work now.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: mwtgg
So basically...

rleemhui: That statement is bullshit. Prove it.
Steeplerot: You're blind, wake up maaaaaaan.

The problem with that is all of his arguments have pretty much been debunked yet he continues on some strange train of thought. There are big holes in his knowledge base as well. Comparing the deaths in the battle of Gettysburg to Iraq makes completely no sense. As does bringing up the lack of rights for women after the First Gulf War. As I told him the country's economy was devastated. 70% unemployment rates, shelled out infrastructure etc. When things are bad the weakest are the first to feel it, in this case it was the women.

Very few of my arguments have been debunked. Why does comparing deaths make no sense? We have had 1500 deaths and people are viewing it as if this is a huge number for a war that has lasted two years. By comparing it to other wars it shows that it pales in comparison thats all.

Lack of rights of women after the gulf war was brought up because YOU said that women had many rights. I did not originally bring that up.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: mwtgg
So basically...

rleemhui: That statement is bullshit. Prove it.
Steeplerot: You're blind, wake up maaaaaaan.

People are throwing out statements like they are facts. I am asking for evidence. Is that wrong?

 

[ColdZero]

Why is the problem the young people not protesting? Perhaps they don't feel the need to. Not everybody is as dissatisfied with the situation in America as some of the more vocal people seem to be. I don't understand why there is the NEED to protest. If you want to protest, thats great, thats why we have the freedoms we have here. If you don't, thats your choice as well and you shouldn't be looked down upon for that choice.

"It seems as if this modern decade is fueled by copious amounts ecstasy, alcohol and self-absorbtion." Which I think is a generalization about the majority based on the actions of the minority.

The same way you could look at the 60's as being fueled by LSD and hippies instead of "The 60's were fueled by passion and concern for your fellow man."

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Very ironic that whole rant came from someone whose grandfather or g.grandfather was a immigrant just like the mexicans.

And they to were trashed and accused for every wrong in the country just as you do to them now....will people ever learn?
Or is it you don't like their skin color or maybe afraid of *gasp* your children learning a diffrent language in school (like everyone else learns english) ....I wonder..hmmmm
the mexican american war was a straight up land grab just like what we did to the native americans.
If Mexicans wish to move into my neighborhoods and set up shop I welcome ALL New Americans. THere is plenty of room here in the land of the free. (supposedly free)
Now how is that elitest? About as far as you can get from the definition. Try again.

If they want to set up shop great, I'm all for legal immigrants chasing the American dream. You know very well that is not what I am against. Try again.

FYI this is America, we speak ENGLISH here. I don't go to Mexico waving American flags and trying to force everyone to learn english. What gives them the right to do that here in America with spanish and Mexican flags? Why should I have to opt in for english phone bills because they want to make the default spanish? This is American not Mexico, and the language of America is english pure and simple. Why should I have to learn another language in my own country? Why should I feel like the foriegner in my own country? I will learn spanish when I want to, or when I feel like I need to visit Mexico. Not because my country is being eroded and invaded.

I know Chinese and Vietnamese people who have learned english and studied American history to become citizens, and work very hard. Why shouldn't it be the same for everyone else? When you go to someone elses country you adapt to THEIR culture, and that applies to me visiting any country outside the US as well. Most people go to other countries to learn other ways of living or to take part in other cultures and interact with other societies, etc. From what I have observed living in Tucson for over 20 years it seems like Mexicans don't want to become part of American, they just want to swarm over everything like locusts and destroy and assimilate.

I also find it funny how every time someone talks about 'multicultural' and 'tolerance' it always magically seems to imply spanish as an official language. Why don't we skip the political correctness crap and just call it what you really want: mexicultural.



And if you want to talk about land grabs, there is practically no country in the world whose land wasn't taken from someone else at some point. Even the Iraqis, Israelis, Arabs, and Palastinians took their land from the Assyrians (among other civilizations that were there first), etc. How far back do you care to go?

Exactly my point so why be elitest about the migration of the people over a arbitrary line that happens to exist in this point of history.

 

[mwtgg]

Originally posted by: rleemhui

Originally posted by: mwtgg
So basically...

rleemhui: That statement is bullshit. Prove it.
Steeplerot: You're blind, wake up maaaaaaan.

People are throwing out statements like they are facts. I am asking for evidence. Is that wrong?

No, I agree, but the damn corporate media is brainwashing me. :music😀oodoo doo dooo dooo:music:

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Exactly my point so why be elitest about the migration of the people over a arbitrary line that happens to exist in this point of history.

Arbitrary my ass.

 

[Sunbird]

Have just 1500 US soldiers died in Iraq? (Sorry, i don't know the figures)

Thats a really small number. Many more died in Vietnam, and storming up those beaches in Normandy, and lets not forget those hellhole Pacific Islands. And more die on the roads annually too.

Why doesn't the US send all possible troops to Iraq and totally conquer every inch of the place? And then sort everything out, if they really are interested in sorting things out, that is.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: ColdZero
Why is the problem the young people not protesting? Perhaps they don't feel the need to. Not everybody is as dissatisfied with the situation in America as some of the more vocal people seem to be. I don't understand why there is the NEED to protest. If you want to protest, thats great, thats why we have the freedoms we have here. If you don't, thats your choice as well and you shouldn't be looked down upon for that choice.

"It seems as if this modern decade is fueled by copious amounts ecstasy, alcohol and self-absorbtion." Which I think is a generalization about the majority based on the actions of the minority.

The same way you could look at the 60's as being fueled by LSD and hippies instead of "The 60's were fueled by passion and concern for your fellow man."

Who said anyone had to protest? He was saying it is not the norm anymore becasue of the self-absorbed mentality of people nowdays. (this goes for adults too)
Just another symptom of the isolation of middle america, of course they are isolated and
uninformed they soak up the tv and talk radio while on their commutes alone every day.
When is their ideas of the "norm" challenged? not very often.
Why would these people protest? They are on cultural cruise control.

 

[ColdZero]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Exactly my point so why be elitest about the migration of the people over a arbitrary line that happens to exist in this point of history.

Because not to respect those borders invalidates everything that people who do follow the rules did to come here and fully participate in American society.

 

[mwtgg]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: ColdZero
Why is the problem the young people not protesting? Perhaps they don't feel the need to. Not everybody is as dissatisfied with the situation in America as some of the more vocal people seem to be. I don't understand why there is the NEED to protest. If you want to protest, thats great, thats why we have the freedoms we have here. If you don't, thats your choice as well and you shouldn't be looked down upon for that choice.

"It seems as if this modern decade is fueled by copious amounts ecstasy, alcohol and self-absorbtion." Which I think is a generalization about the majority based on the actions of the minority.

The same way you could look at the 60's as being fueled by LSD and hippies instead of "The 60's were fueled by passion and concern for your fellow man."

Who said anyone had to protest? He was saying it is not the norm anymore becasue of the self-absorbed mentality of people nowdays. (this goes for adults too)
Just another symptom of the isolation of middle america, of course they are isolated and
uninformed they soak up the tv and talk radio while on their commutes alone every day.
When is their ideas of the "norm" challenged? not very often.
Why would these people protest? They are on cultural cruise control.

You harp on us "simpletons" yet keep bleating the same anti-media line. Bravo!