National Debt

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: MicroChrome

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: ruffilb
We're obviously in massive debt. I doubt that this problem will naturally resolve, especially at the rate we're going. What does this mean for the future of the average citizen and the future of the nation?

As long as the economy continues to grow it does mean much.

I guess it "doesen't' mean much if you have a spare 65Grand sitting around in the bank. As that is what every american owes.

I do happen to have a spare 65K, but I doubt most people don't.

Thanks for admitting you are one of the Rich folks that posts on here. :thumbsup:

Most are too cowardly but they are pretty obvious anyway.

 

[techs]

In the short term it affects our foreign policy in that we need countries to purchase our debt. China has been amazingly good at using this to unfairly compete with America and to steal our manufacturing base.
In the long run we will come to a time when our lenders stop lending. With the interest we must pay we will find America in a crisis. Jobs, infrastructure, defense will all be sacrificed. OUr standard of living will plummet.
Basically, we are screwed.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: techs
In the short term it affects our foreign policy in that we need countries to purchase our debt.

China has been amazingly good at using this to unfairly compete with America and to steal our manufacturing base.


In the long run we will come to a time when our lenders stop lending. With the interest we must pay we will find America in a crisis. Jobs, infrastructure, defense will all be sacrificed. OUr standard of living will plummet.
Basically, we are screwed.

Correction - We gave them out manufacturing base. More specifically the Politicians and the Corporations that own them gave China the Manufacturing including Wally World.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's not growing, the numbers are phoney.

Proof? Evidence? I'll be waiting...

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's not growing, the numbers are phoney.

Proof? Evidence? I'll be waiting...

Don't hold your breath. I asked him back on the first page. Like all good liberals, Dave hates it when you demand facts to back up his assertions.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's not growing, the numbers are phoney.

Proof? Evidence? I'll be waiting...

Don't hold your breath. I asked him back on the first page. Like all good liberals, Dave hates it when you demand facts to back up his assertions.

I'll post the real numbers once the Republican Regime that is posting the phoney numbers is gone.

Until then there is nothing but phoney numbers.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's not growing, the numbers are phoney.

Proof? Evidence? I'll be waiting...

Don't hold your breath. I asked him back on the first page. Like all good liberals, Dave hates it when you demand facts to back up his assertions.

I'll post the real numbers once the Republican Regime that is posting the phoney numbers is gone.

Until then there is nothing but phoney numbers.

I love you man... 😀

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
I'll post the real numbers once the Republican Regime that is posting the phoney numbers is gone.

Until then there is nothing but phoney numbers.

Can you say TIN FOIL?!?!

My, Dave, you might need a break from the keyboard.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's not growing, the numbers are phoney.

Proof? Evidence? I'll be waiting...

Don't hold your breath. I asked him back on the first page. Like all good liberals, Dave hates it when you demand facts to back up his assertions.

I'll post the real numbers once the Republican Regime that is posting the phoney numbers is gone.

Until then there is nothing but phoney numbers.

I love you man... 😀

A lot of people say that.

Hopefully enough to vote for me in 2008 😀 :thumbsup:

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: techs
In the short term it affects our foreign policy in that we need countries to purchase our debt. China has been amazingly good at using this to unfairly compete with America and to steal our manufacturing base.

I believe the correct word for it is competition, not 'steal our manufacturing base.'

In a similar tactic, America has been subsidizing the US agricultural sector. That has been a hot debate in WTO meetings. Does that constitute stealing? I think not. It's all market competition.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: MicroChrome

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: ruffilb
We're obviously in massive debt. I doubt that this problem will naturally resolve, especially at the rate we're going. What does this mean for the future of the average citizen and the future of the nation?

As long as the economy continues to grow it does mean much.

I guess it "doesen't' mean much if you have a spare 65Grand sitting around in the bank. As that is what every american owes. I do happen to have a spare 65K, but I doubt most people don't.

Actually, you'd be better off spending it now if you think national debt is a problem, before your government devalues its currency (and debt) yet again (as it has in the last two years or so). When this happens, holders of US-denominated savings are essentially helping to pay the debt through inflation.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Or converting it into a hard asset like gold or rental property.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Or converting it into a hard asset like gold or rental property.

Hence sharp rises in the price of Gold and housing/land the last few years! 😉

 

[blues008]

This is a good read:

Link!

 

[techs]

It is truly amazing that people can dismiss our countries debt as irrelevant.
Are they just plain stupid or dissembling?
One thing we have learned. Future problems tend to come upon us more quickly than we predict. This country will be in serious trouble within 10 years.

 

[OrganizedChaos]

Originally posted by: techs
It is truly amazing that people can dismiss our countries debt as irrelevant.
Are they just plain stupid or dissembling?
One thing we have learned. Future problems tend to come upon us more quickly than we predict. This country will be in serious trouble within 10 years.

its nothing bombs can't fix. once we take out a few large countries industrial sectors they will have to buy goods from us again.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Agreed charrison, Tango is talking out of his ass.
link

China is about a 1/3rd Japan's ownership of US treasury securities, and barely above the UK.

I would also like P&N to notice that on the US's $8trillion dollar debt, only $2.1trillion is foreign owned...

First: "Securities" include many more financial instruments other than Bonds.
Second: those are government holdings only. Point is, China is mostly using private companies to make its acquisitions. The border between public and private in China is very fuzzy.

It could very well be that Japan is anyway number one holder of US debts, but it's not what everybody in wall street think.

 

[Stunt]

You know what everyone on wall street thinks?

I'm pretty sure Japanese companies are still some of the most respected in the world with far more market influence than China. I can name 5 japanese companies that are dominating global forces. I cannot say the same for China. No doubt they will be a force in the future, but don't overhype something you obviously know little about.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Stunt
You know what everyone on wall street thinks?

I'm pretty sure Japanese companies are still some of the most respected in the world with far more market influence than China. I can name 5 japanese companies that are dominating global forces. I cannot say the same for China. No doubt they will be a force in the future, but don't overhype something you obviously know little about.

Yep. China is producing all of the little stuff but are growing quickly. They are purchasing their way to global dominance with companies such as IBM's PC business, etc. Japan is still a leader with companies such as Toyota, Sony, Panasonic, etc., although you now find some of those products "Made in China"! 😉

 

[Stunt]

I don't mind manufacturing in China, as long as most of the money is retained within our borders (and it has), and we develop technologies domestically...we will have a bright future as an intellectual powerhouse and exploiting cheaper products which we otherwise wouldn't be able to afford.

I'll tell you right now, without the competition in China or foreign manufacturing; we wouldnt be half as well off as we are now. (in terms of standard of living)

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Stunt
I don't mind manufacturing in China, as long as most of the money is retained within our borders (and it has), and we develop technologies domestically...we will have a bright future as an intellectual powerhouse and exploiting cheaper products which we otherwise wouldn't be able to afford.

I'll tell you right now, without the competition in China or foreign manufacturing; we wouldnt be half as well off as we are now. (in terms of standard of living)

That may be true. I hope it continues to be that way and we continue to expand our technological advancement....for all of our sakes.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: blues008
This is a good read:

Link!

While a good read, it has both a view and a rebuttal. Who is right and who is wrong? Maybe somewhere in the middle? I have grown to see the view that it might just be OK to have a growing debt as long as your economy outgrows it and you can pay the payments via the expanded economic revenue. But I guess the personal side in me, which is to be debt free, has a hard time seeing it. Good read..but counter viewpoints that are tough. It could go on forever with no problems....it could explode next year. Nobody knows for sure.

 

[Stunt]

Engineer, the way i see it...
People have houses, cars, investments. Their house has a mortgage and sure it's a form of debt, and if you sell all your investments, sure you can fully pay off your whole house. But what is the point of that when your investments are producing much more than the interest on you debt.

Similarly, lets say you have an incident (ie. car breaks down, one time payment/investment) and you cannot buy groceries for that month. Do you a) starve yourself (similar to a spending cap) or b) buy on credit untill you don't have those one time disruptions. (and yes i see hurricane, iraq war, tech bust as one time incidents)

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Engineer, the way i see it...
People have houses, cars, investments. Their house has a mortgage and sure it's a form of debt, and if you sell all your investments, sure you can fully pay off your whole house. But what is the point of that when your investments are producing much more than the interest on you debt.

Similarly, lets say you have an incident (ie. car breaks down, one time payment/investment) and you cannot buy groceries for that month. Do you a) starve yourself (similar to a spending cap) or b) buy on credit untill you don't have those one time disruptions. (and yes i see hurricane, iraq war, tech bust as one time incidents)

Most American homeowners, I suspect, could not pay off their mortgage without selling their house (i.e. their mortgage is not an investment loan in the sense you're speaking about). Whether the situation changes in other countries without mortgage-interest-deductibility, I'm not sure.

 

[Stunt]

So what you are saying is the government is better managed compared to the average amareican...

Can you really complain about the national debt and deficit then?