National Debt

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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Stunt
Engineer, the way i see it...
People have houses, cars, investments. Their house has a mortgage and sure it's a form of debt, and if you sell all your investments, sure you can fully pay off your whole house. But what is the point of that when your investments are producing much more than the interest on you debt.

Similarly, lets say you have an incident (ie. car breaks down, one time payment/investment) and you cannot buy groceries for that month. Do you a) starve yourself (similar to a spending cap) or b) buy on credit untill you don't have those one time disruptions. (and yes i see hurricane, iraq war, tech bust as one time incidents)

Stunt,

I'm not arguing that all debt is bad. I have learned from this very forum that debt can be a good thing (look at Walmart). However, money wasted is money wasted. I understand the argument that money borrowed is generally placed back into the economy spurring it even further. Using this argument, one can deduce welfare is a wonderful thing in that it is all placed back into the economy, eh? I'm sure there are those that disagree. Money spend "wisely" is worth borrowing as it is a true "investment". Poorly spent money is just the old cliche...."flushed down the toilet".

As for the government being better managed, I would say no. But they have the vast resources of ALL of the taxpayers if in need and can simply raise what they need when they need it. Might not be popular but they can. Try that with your boss! ;)
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
They could just declare the SS System bankrupt and pull every old person's SS and forgive their own debt. Of course we can keep lying to America and claim there is not SS problem.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: piasabird
They could just declare the SS System bankrupt and pull every old person's SS and forgive their own debt. Of course we can keep lying to America and claim there is not SS problem.

Or you can realize that it isn't an SS problem at all, because just like most corporations, the US has raided the SS fund for other purposes. WHy is the liability traced to SS when the program itself apparently has run at a surplus?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,753
10,059
136
Our debt, although large, is not nearly as large compared to the GDP as it has been in the past. While it is nothing to brag about, it's nothing that is going to suddenly murder us.

Yet if you think you can merely shake the pennies out of the people to pay for all the spending, you have another thing coming to you when the economy collapses.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: ruffilb
We're obviously in massive debt. I doubt that this problem will naturally resolve, especially at the rate we're going. What does this mean for the future of the average citizen and the future of the nation?

fscked
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: ruffilb
We're obviously in massive debt. I doubt that this problem will naturally resolve, especially at the rate we're going. What does this mean for the future of the average citizen and the future of the nation?

fscked

Just when I'm starting to feel the ole "Deficits don't matter", you throw a fscked out there Vic. Why? :confused:
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
You know what everyone on wall street thinks?

I'm pretty sure Japanese companies are still some of the most respected in the world with far more market influence than China. I can name 5 japanese companies that are dominating global forces. I cannot say the same for China. No doubt they will be a force in the future, but don't overhype something you obviously know little about.


I was obviously referring to private banks, not companies the american "man of the street" is aware of. Even if even in this field things are moving. Not a lot of people ever heard of Lenovo before its take-over IBM PC division.
And yes, I know what quite a lot of people in wall street know and think about this because of my job. Chinese banks are hard to look into, and escape our general beliefs about how a financial company should be ruled, how financial statements are done and accounting computed. But many people believe that the chinese government and semi-public banks played a major role in the ultra-fast timings of the last years' bond emissions. Not only american bonds, but also european, japanese and latin american ones. Some of them, think of low paying italian 30-years bonds as an example, attracted a suspiciosly high amount of attention that many people consider unanderstandable if you only consider private investment funds. On the other hand they would perfectly fit the needs of an emerging economy with tons of cash and political and economic reasons for accumulating foreign countries' foreign liabilities.
Buying american bonds the chinese government is stabilizing its currency, preventing its appreciation over limits that could be risky for their export. One result of this policy is a sustainable boom in their export to the US with the conseguent huge trade surplus with america, and the possibility to reinvest part of this suplus buying american debt.

Now, both Japan and China would have serious problems if and when the US central bank start raising seriously the interest rates, causing a collapse in the bond values. They are obviously betting on the incapacity of the US to do so, caused by the fears of what a surge in the interest rates could cause in the internal market: if US rates surge the effect will be felt in everything from mortgage payments, credit card repayments and lower corporate investments. Also the billions of dollard of american bonds both China and Japan have parked in wall street are now critical for US financial stability. When they will decide to go short the dollar will slide, and will do it sharp. Many analysts think this will happen in the first quarter of 2006, and the result will be an euro/dollar ratio around 1.40.

From Foreign Affairs, August 2005:
The United States has a particularly delicate relationship with China, which is currently the single biggest buyer of U.S. debt. To date, disagreements on other issues have not prompted China to slow its accumulation of dollar reserves, but that is not to say that it could not happen in the future. The ability to send a "sell" order that roils markets may not give China a veto over U.S. foreign policy, but it surely does increase the cost of any U.S. policy that China opposes. Even if China never plays its financial card, the unbalanced economic relationship between the United States and China could add to the political tensions likely to accompany China's rise.

Oh, and I DO know quite a lot on this subject.
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
I don't mind manufacturing in China, as long as most of the money is retained within our borders (and it has), and we develop technologies domestically...we will have a bright future as an intellectual powerhouse and exploiting cheaper products which we otherwise wouldn't be able to afford.

I'll tell you right now, without the competition in China or foreign manufacturing; we wouldnt be half as well off as we are now. (in terms of standard of living)


True.