Nashville church shooter wanted to kill a minimum of 10 white churchgoers.

[ch33zw1z]

So knowing this, we could either: (1) push for good ideas even if the other team will vote against them just to spite us (2) Hang out on the internet and play "you're racist", "no u".

I often hear how the conservative voters constantly vote against their own interest. They aren't doing this to be dicks. They are doing this because they don't actually believe they are voting against their own interest. I think we have failed to communicate the financial, moral, societal benefits of caring for the mentally ill.

Push for them all we want, you just made the case. It's about beliefs, not facts or numbers.

So, how would you propose we communicate this effectively? Maybe just start with healthcare as an example.

 

[SMOGZINN]

They are doing this because they don't actually believe they are voting against their own interest. I think we have failed to communicate the financial, moral, societal benefits of caring for the mentally ill.

You have to qualify what they find important to know if they are voting against their own interests. It seems to me that as much as they talk about economy their real interest is in protecting what they have now to the point of paranoia, and making sure that people that they label as other is punished.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Push for them all we want, you just made the case. It's about beliefs, not facts or numbers.

So, how would you propose we communicate this effectively? Maybe just start with healthcare as an example.

That’s already happened. Quite a few moderate Democrats flipped Congressional districts by talking about protecting health care and coverage for things like pre-existing conditions.

The problem I see is that people like @SlowSpyder affirm liberals worst confirmation biases about conservatives, and they then project those biases on anyone who disagrees with them.

Hard to communicate with and connect to an audience you’ve dismissed and demonized.

 

[ch33zw1z]

That’s already happened. Quite a few moderate Democrats flipped Congressional districts by talking about protecting health care and coverage for things like pre-existing conditions.

The problem I see is that people like @SlowSpyder affirm liberals worst confirmation biases about conservatives, and they then project those biases on anyone who disagrees with them.

Hard to communicate with and connect to an audience you’ve dismissed and demonized.

Oh, it's the Dem's fault, who knew? Lol.... The ACA protected pre-existing conditions, that didn't stop people from voting republicans in control of Congress and the presidency. You know, the same people who wanted to get rid of those protections.

The Dem's policies overall are popular, so what gives? There's only 3 million less people who voted for Trump than Hilary. That sounds like a big difference, but not all that much considering what's on the line.

Sure, Spyder is a dweeb, but the Dem leaders definitely try to include as many people as possible. The problem here is he drags the other conservatives with him for the most part. Fuck your feels and all.

 

[Vic]

That’s already happened. Quite a few moderate Democrats flipped Congressional districts by talking about protecting health care and coverage for things like pre-existing conditions.

The problem I see is that people like @SlowSpyder affirm liberals worst confirmation biases about conservatives, and they then project those biases on anyone who disagrees with them.

Hard to communicate with and connect to an audience you’ve dismissed and demonized.

It's just so disingenuous for you to make this argument while ignoring that practically all that is 'conservative media' does almost nothing but push Slow's left-wing doppelgangers onto their viewers, thus intentionally affirming conservatives' worst confirmation biases about liberals, with the same effect, except (and I repeat) intentionally.

But yeah, that's liberals' fault too, right?

 

[Starbuck1975]

Oh, it's the Dem's fault, who knew? Lol.... The ACA protected pre-existing conditions, that didn't stop people from voting republicans in control of Congress and the presidency. You know, the same people who wanted to get rid of those protections.

Losing those benefits also motivated many of them to vote for moderate Democrats and flip the House.

The Dem's policies overall are popular, so what gives?

Maybe because at a micro and localized level, Democrats have proven ineffective at implementing those policies.

There's only 3 million less people who voted for Trump than Hilary. That sounds like a big difference, but not all that much considering what's on the line.

Voter apathy and lack of participation is the bigger problem in my opinion. I go to most my town’s meetings, where decisions are made on things that more directly impact me than anything statewide or nationally. I am one of the few people under 50 that does.

Sure, Spyder is a dweeb, but the Dem leaders definitely try to include as many people as possible. The problem here is he drags the other conservatives with him for the most part. Fuck your feels and all.

Given who typically responds to his threads, who is getting dragged exactly?

 

[Pipeline 1010]

Push for them all we want, you just made the case. It's about beliefs, not facts or numbers.

I can't actually recall having seen any facts or numbers pushed for by Dem politicians. I have to kind of search for them myself. I can't recall a Dem ever saying "we can save x$ and help literally all humans if we improve mental health". Hell, propose a bill with a "you saved this much by improving mental healthcare tax credit". A tangible benefit will change beliefs real quick.

So, how would you propose we communicate this effectively? Maybe just start with healthcare as an example.

In my opinion, that is the wrong place to start. Overall healthcare is far more complex than it's far smaller subset of mental health care. I would think the opposite might work: start with the small thing, succeed, then use that success as a springboard to greater things.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Losing those benefits also motivated many of them to vote for moderate Democrats and flip the House.

Maybe because at a micro and localized level, Democrats have proven ineffective at implementing those policies.

Voter apathy and lack of participation is the bigger problem in my opinion. I go to most my town’s meetings, where decisions are made on things that more directly impact me than anything statewide or nationally. I am one of the few people under 50 that does.

Whole lot of speculation. The ACA was never repealed.

My wife and I alternate going to town meetings. We encourage others our age, because it's the same here.

Voter apathy is a problem, as is voter awareness and ignorance. It seems to me apathy isnt the bigger issue on a federal or state scale, but is at a local level.

Given who typically responds to his threads, who is getting dragged exactly?

Except we're not discussing this forum, but you knew that.

 

[Starbuck1975]

It's just so disingenuous for you to make this argument while ignoring that practically all that is 'conservative media' does almost nothing but push Slow's left-wing doppelgangers onto their viewers, thus intentionally affirming conservatives' worst confirmation biases about liberals, with the same effect, except (and I repeat) intentionally.

But yeah, that's liberals' fault too, right?

I supported the recent social media bans of the alt-right mouthpieces and often question why Twitter hasn’t banned Trump.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I can't actually recall having seen any facts or numbers pushed for by Dem politicians. I have to kind of search for them myself. I can't recall a Dem ever saying "we can save x$ and help literally all humans if we improve mental health". Hell, propose a bill with a "you saved this much by improving mental healthcare tax credit". A tangible benefit will change beliefs real quick.



In my opinion, that is the wrong place to start. Overall healthcare is far more complex than it's far smaller subset of mental health care. I would think the opposite might work: start with the small thing, succeed, then use that success as a springboard to greater things.

Mental health and physical health go hand in hand. I think what you're asking for will be difficult to gauge, and if inaccurate will yield more "if you like doctor you can keep you doctor" strawman moments that we still see conservatives clinging to now.

I just dont have as much faith in my fellow Americans as you seem to.

 

[GettyRoad]

It doesn't fit the narrative of the MSM, so it won't be talked about. If this was another Dylann Roof, it would be on 24/7.

This is why a lot of people, especially a lot of whites don't trust the media--they feel that they give minorities a pass-like O.J. Simpson. How he got off in October 1995 still is in the minds of a lot of Americans.

 

[Jhhnn]

It doesn't fit the narrative of the MSM, so it won't be talked about. If this was another Dylann Roof, it would be on 24/7.

This is why a lot of people, especially a lot of whites don't trust the media--they feel that they give minorities a pass-like O.J. Simpson. How he got off in October 1995 still is in the minds of a lot of Americans.

That's bullshit. It was covered at the time & is being covered now. It's not like Samson is getting a pass, either.

OJ? Really?

 

[Vic]

It doesn't fit the narrative of the MSM, so it won't be talked about. If this was another Dylann Roof, it would be on 24/7.

This is why a lot of people, especially a lot of whites don't trust the media--they feel that they give minorities a pass-like O.J. Simpson. How he got off in October 1995 still is in the minds of a lot of Americans.

You seriously just out-Slow'ed Slow.

 

[Jhhnn]

You seriously just out-Slow'ed Slow.

I figure he's an alt-sockpuppet account, brought out for special occasions.

 

[FirNaTine]

... Better mental health means less burden on our cops who don't want to be mental health professionals but are still the go-to people we call when shit goes down with a mentally ill person....

/QUOTE]

IMHO, we should be relying on paramedics (with police assistance if actively violent) for the immediate response, backed up byMobile Crisis Teams for acute mental health issues.

As a paramedic I have much more training and experience looking for underlying medical causes, psych med withdrawal, drug use, etc of unusual or potentially violent behavior and an assortment of medical interventions to treat and/or sedate someone as opposed to the physical control tools police officers have.

It's a different role/approach/mindset, but the ultimate destination for these folks is almost always a general purpose emergency room or in large cities occasionally a psych er. If the ultimate destination is medical evaluation and treatment, why aren't we using the medical emergency response personnel instead of police?

Not knocking all police, as I work with some side by side very frequently and I've seen a number go above and beyond to de-escalate things, but it doesn't always work out that way.

I'd rather see a joint response of EMS/PD to isolate the person from harm, rapid approach, sedation, and withdrawal until it calms them. I've had good luck with exactly that and using some of the newer Excited Delirium protocols.

 

[FirNaTine]

Mental health and physical health go hand in hand. I think what you're asking for will be difficult to gauge, and if inaccurate will yield more "if you like doctor you can keep you doctor" strawman moments that we still see conservatives clinging to now.

I just dont have as much faith in my fellow Americans as you seem to.

There's a number of medical/metabolic conditions that can present as mental illness, so much so that all patients being admitted for psychiatric care need a medical exam and certain testing to rule out medical causes first.

But, an even bigger association is between mental illness and substance abuse Link.

One doesn't necessarily cause the other, but they share a lot of risk factors. So, I'd also suggest good substance abuse support programs as a way to also improve overall mental health.

 

[cytg111]

That’s already happened. Quite a few moderate Democrats flipped Congressional districts by talking about protecting health care and coverage for things like pre-existing conditions.

The problem I see is that people like @SlowSpyder affirm liberals worst confirmation biases about conservatives, and they then project those biases on anyone who disagrees with them.

Hard to communicate with and connect to an audience you’ve dismissed and demonized.

I think its judgemental of you, not the dems! You see Slow being aligned with the POTUS and his hardcore base. That is the big picture, like it or not, and Trumpism has infected and taken over what was once the GOP... I think if you believe yourself to stand out from that, that is a message you have to carry yourself.. Over and over again until the nightmare is over and things hopefully normalize.

 

[MixMasterTang]

The way you sell better mental health care to republicans and conservatives is to do the math (keep it simple) and show them it will cost less to treat folks and return them to society as contributing members than it will to stand on their moral high horse and throw everyone in jail at society's expense. The same goes for other social programs aimed at preventing folks from becoming marginalized in our society.

It's a mistake to try and regulate morality too much. I don't understand folks who have a hard-on for judging others behavior if they aren't hurting anyone. All society really needs from it's members is that they be law-abiding and self-supporting. Making sure Johnny isn't hungry, gets decent health care and receives an adequate education so he can grow to be a contributing member of society is in our own best interests as a society. Compassion is a fiscally responsible policy. And would probably help us produce a few less mass shooters along the way.

That doesn’t work, for example take the fact that for every 1 dollar invested into planned parenthood saves between 5 and 6 dollars of public money that is paid towards unplanned pregnancies (medical, welfare and a whole slew of stuff).


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[MixMasterTang]

To my knowledge we haven't been talking about these items at all instead we have been saying "you're racist", "no u".

I think it is an easy sell to ask a conservative: "would you like more people productive members of society, less violence, less mental illness, fewer homeless, and would you like all of these things for a cheaper cost than we spend today?"

Do conservatives really answer no to this question? It's like a smorgasbord of conservative win.

The answer I typically see from conservatives is “Stop being a pussy, depression and anxiety do not really exist. Grab them boot straps”. Besides the FYGM mentality a reoccurring theme from conservatives is “I was poor from a broken family and turned out fine!” or “I have never seen a black person discriminated against!” and all of their views are from an extremely narrow perspective. They are unable to comprehend seeing things from other peoples perspective, only their own.


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[MixMasterTang]

I can't actually recall having seen any facts or numbers pushed for by Dem politicians. I have to kind of search for them myself. I can't recall a Dem ever saying "we can save x$ and help literally all humans if we improve mental health". Hell, propose a bill with a "you saved this much by improving mental healthcare tax credit". A tangible benefit will change beliefs real quick.



In my opinion, that is the wrong place to start. Overall healthcare is far more complex than it's far smaller subset of mental health care. I would think the opposite might work: start with the small thing, succeed, then use that success as a springboard to greater things.

So you never seen Bernie Sanders talk about how much single payer healthcare can save the overall amount of money spent on healthcare in the US?


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[MixMasterTang]

You seriously just out-Slow'ed Slow.

Kudos, I almost spit out my beer. It’s fine if Trump theoretically shoots someone on 5th avenue and his supporters will still love him but holy f if a black man gets away with something it will still be on peoples minds 24 years later!


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[dawp]

slow, IF you're not a racist, then why did you NOT post in this thread?
https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...l-african-methodist-episcopal-church.2436140/

 

[cytg111]

The answer I typically see from conservatives is “Stop being a pussy, depression and anxiety do not really exist. Grab them boot straps”.

- I think you can find that quote from pcgeek here ... I've def. read something to that effect from him...

 

[Starbuck1975]

Whole lot of speculation. The ACA was never repealed.

Protecting the ACA was and remains a rallying cry for the left, and the fact that it resonates with some Trump voters is one way to erode his base.

Except we're not discussing this forum, but you knew that.

But we are. The Slow threads remind me of the OK Corral gunfight scene from the movie Tombstone. The cowboys are cornered. They’ve been in control so long they don’t like the tables turned, but they also know they can’t win. Then Val Kilmer gives a condescending wink that triggers one of the cowboys to draw and then the situation escalates out of control.

I think its judgemental of you, not the dems! You see Slow being aligned with the POTUS and his hardcore base. That is the big picture, like it or not, and Trumpism has infected and taken over what was once the GOP... I think if you believe yourself to stand out from that, that is a message you have to carry yourself.. Over and over again until the nightmare is over and things hopefully normalize.

I see it as the small picture. Trump is a momentary knee jerk to the underlying issues that led to his victory, and some Democrats are stubbornly and arrogantly unwilling to admit that their actions contributed to it.

 

[cytg111]

You seriously just out-Slow'ed Slow.

I think you just called it.... scary as it may be.