Nancy Pelosi refuses to yield

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
You use that word because you want to contrast illegal with good as if that's what Americans with a sense of real Christian spirit believe, to hide your own consciousness from how filthily evil your beliefs actually are when the real subject is that of people brought to this country illegally by their parents, who are as American as you are, having known no other life.
Bullshit. Your brain has been medicated through the years into something that now only resembles a human brain. You equate emotion with fact, confuse emotion with law.

If they were born here, they are American citizens. If they were brought here they are not. Your 'feelings' are not law. Your feelings have value within the confines of whatever brain it is that still exists in your cranium. Quit trying to force your psychosis on me. I'm not interested in sharing it with you.

Pelosi is a whack job which is probably why her words ring so true to you. The woman rarely can speak without pausing and staring off into space, losing her sense of where she's at and what she's doing. She has on numerous occasions said 'Bush' when she meant to say 'Trump'. Anyone with even a half a brain would understand that the woman has become a liability. But you evidently worship her. Well, birds of a feather...
 
  • Like
Reactions: IJTSSG

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Ironic and sad to see the so called working persons party that wants $15 dollar an hour minimum/living wage, workers rights, unions, equal pay for equal work, etc.
give the very businesses they love to point their finger at an avenue to exploit, in this case illegals, so they can bypass all those rules and regulations so the rich can keep more for themselves while depressing wages for the lower classes.

That's why Reagan was able to play the so called liberal Democrats so well, as he demonstrated when he gave amnesty to illegals while the democrats were warned by their own unions that it was nothing more than a union/wage busting move and ignored it, and to this day Democrats are doing the bidding of big business under the cover of social justice for illegal immigrants.

Illegal Workers: the Con's Secret Weapon

Why Bush & Co. like a cheap and illegal labor force

By Thom Hartmann

03/09/06 "GNN" -- -- Conservatives are all atwitter about illegal immigrants. Some want to give them amnesty. Others want to reinstitute the old Bracero program. Others want to build a wall around America, like the communists did around East Berlin. Some advocate all of the above.

But none will tell Americans the truth about why we have eleven million illegal aliens in this nation now (when it was fewer than 2 million when Reagan came into office), why they’re staying, or why they keep coming. In a word, it’s “jobs.” In conservative lexicon, it’s “cheap labor to increase corporate profits.”

Recently George W. Bush insulted working Americans by saying that we need eleven million illegal immigrants here in the United States because (in a slightly cleaned-up version of the more blatantly racist comments of Vicente Fox) there are some jobs that “American’s won’t do.” As the modern-day Sago miners, and the 1950s Ed Norton character Art Carney played on the old Jackie Gleason show (who worked in the sewers of NYC) prove, the reality is that there are virtually no jobs Americans won’t do – for an appropriate paycheck.

It’s really all about breaking the back of the most democratic (and Democratic) of American institutions – the American middle class.

One of the tools conservatives have used very successfully over the past 25 years to drive down wages, bust unions, and increase CEO salaries has been to encourage illegal immigrant labor in the U.S. Their technique is transparently simple.

Conservatives well understand supply and demand. If there’s more of something, its price goes down. If it becomes scarce, its price goes up.

They also understand that this applies just as readily to labor as it does to houses, cars, soybeans, or oil. While the history of much of the progressive movement in the United States has been to control the supply of labor (mostly through pushing for maximum-hour, right-to-strike, and child-labor laws) to thus be able to bargain decent wages for working people, the history of conservative America has, from its earliest days grounded in slavery and indentured workers from Europe, been to increase the supply of labor and drive down its cost.

In the 1980s, for example, the increasing supply of labor (both from Reagan-allowed consolidations eliminating redundant jobs, and from illegal immigration, which was around 3 million illegals by the time Reagan left office) fed massive union-busting in industry sectors from those directly hit with illegal immigrant labor (like construction and agriculture) to those who only felt its fallout but nonetheless were pressed (like coal mining). In part, because of these national downward pressures on organized labor, the miners who died in the International Coal Group’s Sago Mine didn’t have union protection.

Indeed, as the International Coal Group’s June 2005 form S-A/1 filing notes about one of their other recent mine acquisitions: ”.assets are high quality reserves strategically located in Appalachia and the Illinois Basin, are union free, have limited reclamation liabilities and are substantially free of other legacy liabilities.” Similarly, it’s estimated that the construction industry enhanced their profits last year by over a billion dollars because the availability of illegal immigrant labor has so significantly pushed down the price of construction labor.

“Union free” is good for the CEOs and stockholders of giant corporations. Reagan helped make it possible by reducing enforcement of the Sherman Anti-Trust and similar acts, by making the Labor Department hostile to labor, and by thus producing an environment into which illegal immigrant labor could step. He busted PATCO and popularized anti-union rhetoric, at a time when union membership was one of the primary boundaries that keep illegal labor out of the marketplace.

Today, this fundamental economic rule of labor supply and demand is most conspicuous in the conservative reluctance to stop illegal immigration into the United States. All those extra (illegal) workers, after all, drive up the supply – and thus drive down the cost – of labor. Even in areas where there are not high populations of illegal immigrants, their presence elsewhere in the American workforce drives down overall the cost of labor nationwide. And when the cost of labor goes down, there’s more money left over for CEOs and stockholder dividends.

Conservatives can’t just come out and say that they are pleased with the estimated eleven million illegal workers in the United States driving down wages. They can’t brag that, behind oil revenue, Mexico’s second largest source of income is money sent home from illegal “cheap labor” workers in the United States. They can’t point out that before Reagan declared war on working people in 1981 we didn’t “need a fence” to keep out illegal immigrants from the south, in large part because the high rate of unionization in America at that time, and enforcement of laws against hiring illegal immigrants, served as barriers to the entry of illegals into the workforce. They won’t acknowledge the corporate benefits of a workforce whose healthcare is paid for by taxpayers but whose productivity belongs to their corporate masters.

But conservative strategists have noticed that the workers – and the voters – of the United States are getting nervous about nearly 10 percent of our workforce being both illegal and cheap. This has led conservative commentators and politicians to resort to classic “wedge issue” rhetoric, exploiting Americans’ fears – while working to keep conditions relatively the same as they are today.

They talk about building fences. They worry out loud about brown-skinned Middle Eastern terrorists slipping in amongst the brown-skinned South- and Central Americans. They warn us of all the social security money we’ll lose if illegals have to leave the country and stop paying into a system from which they’ll never be able to collect. They even find themselves obligated – catering to both working-class fears and to the bigots among us – to promote the idea of giant fences around the country to keep illegals out. (A fence that would, no doubt, tremendously profit their big contractor friends.)

At the same time, catering to compassionate Americans who don’t realize this is all about driving up corporate profits and driving down workers’ wages, cons like Arlen Specter are promoting legislation that would decriminalize the illegals currently in the United States, thus making legal our increased workforce. As Rachel L. Swarns reported in The New York Times on February 25, 2006: “Advocates for immigrants said the [Bush/Specter] plan failed to protect the rights of immigrant workers, who they argue deserve a clear path to citizenship. And the AFL-CIO warned that a guest worker program of unlimited scale would depress wages and working conditions while creating a perpetual underclass of foreign workers.”

None of the various con proposals – from a fence to amnesty – address the fundamental truth of the situation: Conservatives and the businesses they represent want to maintain a large, illegal or marginally legal, and thus powerless workforce in the United States, to keep down the price of labor and help them finally destroy the union movement – and, thus, that politically pesky middle class.

The reason for all these lies and obfuscations is simple, and found in the core notions of conservatism, articulated from Burke in the late 1700s to Kirk in 1953 and Greenspan over the past two decades. It’s all about power, and since wealth equals power, about the control of wealth in society.

Conservatives believe that what John Adams called “the rabble” – you and me – can’t really be trusted with governance, and therefore that job should be kept to an elite few. The big difference between the old-line Burke conservatives and modern conservatives is that Burke and the cons of his day felt that an hereditary ruling class was desirable (because it would inculcate rulers with a sense of “noblesse oblige”), whereas modern cons like Adams, McKinley, Kirk, and Bush believe that the ruling class should be more of a meritocracy – rule by the “best.”

And – in the finest tradition of John Calvin (who suggested that wealth was a sign of God’s blessing) – what better indication of “best” could there be than “richest”? They believe there should be a thin veneer of democracy on these old conservative notions of aristocracy in order to placate the masses, but are quite certain that it would be a disaster should the rabble ever actually have a strong say in running the country.

This is, at its core, why conservatives embrace the idea of eliminating the American middle class and replacing it with a Dickensian “working poor” class, and are working so hard to use illegal immigrant labor as the lever to bring this about.

As the ‘60’s and ‘70’s showed – during the height of the American middle class’s economic and political power – a strong middle class will challenge corporate power and assert itself economically and politically. This represents a very real threat to conservative ruling elites. “The people” may even suggest that the most elite of the elites should pay stiffer taxes on the top end of their income, so that money can be used to provide the economically most disadvantaged with an opportunity to become socially and economically mobile. It would reduce the most massive of the wealth and the power of the most elite of our conservative elites.

Offshoring, union-busting, and nurturing a huge population of illegal workers (while pretending to be frantic about it and bleating about building fences, fielding vigilantes, or offering “amnesty”) are the core ways to destroy an economic middle class, thus ensuring the ongoing political power of the conservative elite takeover that began with the so-called “Reagan revolution” and continues to this day.

This is why conservatives who complain about illegal immigration in front of the cameras won’t lift a finger in the halls of congress to pass legislation that would put employers of illegals into jail. (They may support “tough fines,” just so long as they’re high enough to sound like a lot of money to the average working stiff but low enough to be a “cost of business” for a corporation that gets caught.)

If Congress were to pass a law that said, quite simply, that the CEO of any business that was caught employing illegal immigrants went to jail for a year – no exceptions – then within a month there would be ten million (more or less) people lined up at the Mexican border trying to get out of the United States. The US unemployment rate would drop close to zero, and wages would begin to rise. The American middle class would begin to return to viability, as would the union movement in this nation.

Legal immigration is a good and healthy thing for a nation, because it is done at a rate and in a way that allows a country to collectively decide what sort of labor/jobs ratios it wants to maintain. Limitless illegal immigration, however, leads to the modern-day equivalent of slavery, benefiting only the conservative corporate elites.

Thus, progressives need to begin a new dialogue about immigration in the United States. (Similar discussions are already underway in many of the countries of Western Europe.) Issues include:

To what extent should the United States bleed its middle class because Mexico is a corrupt oligarchy run by a corrupt former Coca-Cola executive?
How do we work out fair and reasonable options for illegal families living and working here who have birthed “anchor children” in the U.S., now citizens of this nation?
How can we ensure “security” along our southern border in an “age of terrorism”? (A good start may be to stop promulgating policies that cause the world to hate us, but that’s another article.)
How do we recalibrate our business and tax laws so businesses – particularly small and middle-sized businesses – can adjust away from depending on a terrified “working-poor-competing-with-even-more-terrified-illegal-labor” workforce and move toward being able to pay a more robust, domestic, unionized workforce?
How can progressives join with the few remaining populist Republicans (like Lou Dobbs and Patrick Buchanan) to forge an alliance to make this an all-American effort and not have it further split the nation?
And how can we all collectively work to prevent Bush and Specter from re-instituting the brutal Bracero “guest worker” program of the last century?

As the anguished mining families in West Virginia show, Bush was wrong when he said there were jobs Americans “won’t do.” But in the face of massive illegal immigration and the union-busting and wage deflation it spawns, there are increasingly jobs that Americans “can’t do” and still maintain a viable lifestyle.

While some geographically-specific industries (like coal mining) don’t appear overwhelmed by illegal immigrant labor, its impact on the nation as a whole has made it easier for union-busting to take place from the construction industry in New Mexico to the coal mines of West Virginia. Directly or indirectly, illegal immigration affects all working Americans.

Condemning the frightened working-class white guys organizing citizens’ militias along our southern border, or vilifying those who listen to Limbaugh and are convinced that “liberals” are in some sort of collective plot to undermine America may feel good, but it doesn’t address the real problem. Progressives will be most effective when we reach across the divides created by Bush, Specter, et al, and point out how this is really all about corporate conservative efforts to replace the American middle class with a workforce of “working poor” Americans and powerless illegal immigrants (or powerless “amnestied” workers) – all so CEOs can fatten their paychecks and further reward the “conservative” investor class.

Only then will Mexico and other countries to our south have an incentive to get their own houses in order, and will our middle class begin to recover decent bargaining power and the living wages that accompany it.

Thom Hartmann is a Project Censored Award-winning best-selling author and host of a nationally syndicated daily progressive talk show carried on the Air America Radio network and Sirius. www.thomhartmann.com His most recent books include What Would Jefferson Do? and Ultimate Sacrifice (co-authored with Lamar Waldron). His next book, due out this autumn, is Screwed: The Undeclared War on the Middle Class and What We Can Do About It.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IJTSSG
Jul 9, 2009
10,759
2,086
136

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Yes you are. "A citizenship path for illegal immigrants already in the United States contingent on certain border security and visa tracking improvements. "
It didn't contain enough of what Republicans wanted, it needed to be more encompassing. It could have been done, it just didn't go far enough.

So, blame Obama, right?

What does the GOP want? What does Trump want?

Obviously not solutions or they'd actually propose some. You know, like a bill in Congress or something. Something beyond vaporware. What they really want is to keep this issue alive & milk it for all it's worth, election after election.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
What specifically would you have her do to "help American citizens?" You must have something in particular in mind, so spit it out.

I have nothing in particular in mind. Just wondering if she ever put this kind of effort into helping actual citizens. Seems like she's willing to go above and beyond her norm for non-citizens.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phynaz

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
8,250
9,308
136
I have nothing in particular in mind. Just wondering if she ever put this kind of effort into helping actual citizens. Seems like she's willing to go above and beyond her norm for non-citizens.
Yes, she has only ever pushed this hard for non-citizens since 1987.

Because all you have is your programmed talking points.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,913
6,790
126
Bullshit. Your brain has been medicated through the years into something that now only resembles a human brain. You equate emotion with fact, confuse emotion with law.

If they were born here, they are American citizens. If they were brought here they are not. Your 'feelings' are not law. Your feelings have value within the confines of whatever brain it is that still exists in your cranium. Quit trying to force your psychosis on me. I'm not interested in sharing it with you.

Pelosi is a whack job which is probably why her words ring so true to you. The woman rarely can speak without pausing and staring off into space, losing her sense of where she's at and what she's doing. She has on numerous occasions said 'Bush' when she meant to say 'Trump'. Anyone with even a half a brain would understand that the woman has become a liability. But you evidently worship her. Well, birds of a feather...
Hehehehehe. Aren't you a conservative? Is the peer reviewed scientific proof that conservatives are more likely to create an altered universe to protect themselves from unpleasant feelings actually false or even something you could wrap your head around. I have scientific proof on my side when I say there is likely you are the one who has feelings you don't want to reconcile with reality. For example, I have a basis in science to suggest you are a whack-job, and you feel I have a brain that has been medicated, a feeling I personally know to be completely and totally factually wrong. As I said, every time you open your mouth you reveal your insanity.

I said they were brought here illegally by their parents, not that they themselves entered illegally. That is just the swine in you pretending so as to excuse yourself from the evil of your racist feelings.

Furthermore, I know little and care less about Nancy Pelosi but it is obvious to the rest of the world not infected with your racist disease that Trump is a danger to the whole human race. You are an asshole, an imbecile, a moron and a moral turd, but that also is irrelevant to me. I'm here to help you see your disease. I do want to share my mental health with you because I'm happy and you are a sick son of a bitch. I like to compete for the best mental health with you because you only need to feel superior to me for the same reason you do everything, to hide from yourself your miserable state of unconscious inferiority, the deeply repressed feeling you are worthless. I happen to know that you only act like a worthless swine because it is how you were made to feel. You used to be and can again be perfect, but it will take work.

And let me save you some frustratingly useless work. You will never succeed in making me feel as bad as you do because somebody beat you to it long ago. I know you because I know me. We are all the same. And we have all been forgiven. You need to get in line to do so yourself.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
I'm not really a fan, but I'll tip my hat to her here. That is an impressive display of drive and endurance, and for a worthy cause. How a woman of that age just stood for 8 hours in heels with no bathroom breaks kinda blows my mind. My wife can't go 20min without needing to pee.
Stiletto heels to boot! I don't understand what she really accomplished here, but I do admire her tenacity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phynaz

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
I'm not really a fan, but I'll tip my hat to her here. That is an impressive display of drive and endurance, and for a worthy cause. How a woman of that age just stood for 8 hours in heels with no bathroom breaks kinda blows my mind. My wife can't go 20min without needing to pee.

Adult Depends do exist....
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,913
6,790
126
Moonie, you need to calm down a bit. Don't allow your dark side to take over, fight for the light.
What is dark for him is light for me. I am what he can't admit to being. Take my word for it if you can. To know who you are is to know who everybody is. To know it is to end projection. On every old map you will see that the known world is surrounded by monsters. To acquire wisdom, real knowledge of geography, we needed to sail off the ends of the earth. I would wager I have been where he is afraid to go. There is nothing to fear but fear itself.

However, we can't allow the panicked, when approaching the ends of the know world to seize the rudder and sail into an iceberg. We can't have ignorant outliers to navigate ships. We need folk who are practiced sailors, people with a proper moral compass.

I can't imagine anybody with a functioning moral compass wanting to eject people raise from childhood as Americans because their parents broke the law. Imagine yourself ejected as unworthy to live here because you have a conservative brain defect. You would have no idea how to survive in Mexico. I would say exactly what I said to him to any liberal who wished to do that. I am quite calm. I also know the dark side of liberals.

There is only one revolution that I can see or support and it is the raising of consciousness of all, starting always with myself. I have found friends along the way, people much wiser than I.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,913
6,790
126
Stiletto heels to boot! I don't understand what she really accomplished here, but I do admire her tenacity.
To be honest I believe her 'stunt' was in part an attempt to divert the derision she will be subjected to when, per force, she will vote for the greater good of the country and the political viability of the majority of democrats when they are forced to cave on the dreamers to save the rest of us from endless budget uncertainty. And she is getting even by trying to make the Republicans pay for putting dreamers is such an untenable position, the fucking rats.

You have come to realize as other life long republicans have who are calling for all republicans to vote a straight democrat ticket so the republican party will collapse so ream conservatives and centrists can build a new one. All real Americans and most of the voting public by a wide margin, what 87%, want dreamers protected. Only the asshole party stands in the way. It must be destroyed.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
“There’s all kinds of ways, I assure you, that leadership exercises its influence — the least of which is a floor speech,” said Rep. Luis Gutiérrez (D-Ill.), an unabashed critic of leadership on immigration issues.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
“There’s all kinds of ways, I assure you, that leadership exercises its influence — the least of which is a floor speech,” said Rep. Luis Gutiérrez (D-Ill.), an unabashed critic of leadership on immigration issues.

The speech kept the issue in the headlines & keeps the pressure on the GOP to do the right thing. Otherwise it'll fade like their non-action on Puerto Rico.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
All real Americans and most of the voting public by a wide margin, what 87%, want dreamers protected. Only the asshole party stands in the way. It must be destroyed.
And 65% of voters would support a DACA deal that secures the Southern border, ends Chain Migration, and eliminates the Visa Lottery.
https://www.numbersusa.com/news/har...ll-voters-support-reducing-immigration-levels

Do you truly care what all "real Americans" and most of the voting public (by a wide margin) really want?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Phynaz

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The speech kept the issue in the headlines & keeps the pressure on the GOP to do the right thing. Otherwise it'll fade like their non-action on Puerto Rico.
The right thing to do is separate the inmigration debate from the budgetary debate. The right and most moderates recognize them as seperate and distinct issues.

Trump has an immigration plan on the table and the Senate has a bipartisan budget on the table.

The only crowd Pelosi is playing to is "the resistance", with the hope of energizing enough donors and voters to flip a few Congressional districts in California.

She could also derail the whole thing, which is why some Democrats are joining Republicans to ask the question, WTF.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phynaz

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,913
6,790
126
And 65% of voters would support a DACA deal that secures the Southern border, ends Chain Migration, and eliminates the Visa Lottery.
https://www.numbersusa.com/news/har...ll-voters-support-reducing-immigration-levels

Do you truly care what all "real Americans" and most of the voting public (by a wide margin) really want?
Of course.
And 65% of voters would support a DACA deal that secures the Southern border, ends Chain Migration, and eliminates the Visa Lottery.
https://www.numbersusa.com/news/har...ll-voters-support-reducing-immigration-levels

Do you truly care what all "real Americans" and most of the voting public (by a wide margin) really want?
Nope, I only care what real Americans want and I don't need a poll to tell me what they want.

Let me explain in a way I hope is clear. We need security on the Northern border because that's where worthless white people are sneaking in. Chain fence migration is great because the fences are easy to cut. I would love to win a credit card.
 

jmagg

Platinum Member
Nov 21, 2001
2,292
495
136
Moonie seems to have found the ego. Hope youre feeling better soon.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,983
31,539
146
And 65% of voters would support a DACA deal that secures the Southern border, ends Chain Migration, and eliminates the Visa Lottery.
https://www.numbersusa.com/news/har...ll-voters-support-reducing-immigration-levels

Do you truly care what all "real Americans" and most of the voting public (by a wide margin) really want?

If we cared what all "real Americans" and most of the voting public (by a wide margin) really wanted, then a ~30% approval and ~34% of all eligible voters (Actually, I think it is more like 27% considering the turnout?) candidate would have never been elected.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
25,688
10,414
136
And 65% of voters would support a DACA deal that secures the Southern border, ends Chain Migration, and eliminates the Visa Lottery.
https://www.numbersusa.com/news/har...ll-voters-support-reducing-immigration-levels

Do you truly care what all "real Americans" and most of the voting public (by a wide margin) really want?
And I'd venture that 95% of those 65% didn't give a shit about 'chain migration' (aka family reunification) until the White House turned it into the boogeyman. This has got to be the dumbest immigration proposal on record (would stop 66-75% of legal immigration) and the only reason I can think of it is that it's a poison pill to prevent Democrats (and many Republicans) from taking any action on the WH proposal. Family reunification helps ensure that American taxpayers are not funding immigrants--their families are. It helps ensure that the people coming over will work harder to build something or create something in order to have a legacy for their families. Cherry-picking people who could have done just as well at home but come here solely for personal financial gain doesn't honor the legacy of those who came before us.

Pass DREAM Act - Yes
Increase funds for border security - Yes (even with funding for the wall) but appropriate the funds properly--don't turn it into an entitlement which is what the WH wants.
Eliminate the visa lottery - Yes
End family reunification - No. Can compromise by putting caps on family reunification but eliminating it altogether is stupid.