WelshBloke
Lifer
- Jan 12, 2005
- 30,461
- 8,117
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Why do you call him that?
t
Its a really lame Texas joke that manages to be not only not funny but also be not very relevant to Obama.
Why do you call him that?
t
Its a really lame Texas joke that manages to be not only not funny but also be not very relevant to Obama.
How is this helpful? Why do you think Christianity has reformed itself? Maybe, just maybe, because of introspection and a little bit of criticism?
Enough of this bizarre equivalency with hypothetical time-traveling religions. People need to look at the Islam of TODAY. And sure, you can criticize Christianity too (I have and heck even some Christians do) but this is a thread about Islam and I don't see the same subjugation of women that I do in Christianity.
Exactly.
Give me some examples of their wrong doing and I will criticize them.Do you criticize any of the wrong things they do?
You were doing good up to that point.Yeah I don't disagree much with Condell other than the fact that the problems he describes are principally cultural and have no necessary connection to Islam per se.
BTW most of the 'wrong things' that Christians do are the wrong doings of individuals acting outside the beliefs of their religion. The killing of abortion doctors or molestation of children is not condoned by the bible or accepted by the vast majority of Christians.
Yet many parts of the Islamic world believe that arresting rape victims for adultery is perfectly acceptable.
You were doing good up to that point.
Your understanding of Christian 'fundies' seems very limited at best.
And you seem to forget that our country was founded by a bunch of Christian 'fundies' and one of the first things they did was create a democratic government. They certainly relied on religious laws, but the leader of the colony was not the leader of the church.
With the exception of mentioning hate, you just described all religions.. not just Islam.
I was speaking about the Pilgrims who were very religious. The entire reason they came to the new land was to practice their religion.Yeah it's funny that, because western civilization was at that time in the grip of a move toward secular humanism, and the people who founded our government were among the *least* religious people of that time. I'm sorry to say that what we have achieved in western civilization in terms of democracy and humanism, not to mention advancement in science, was done more in spite of Christian fundamentalism than because of it.
Here's another way to put it: if or when Islamic countries every adopt true democracy, liberation for women, etc., it isn't going to be the most religious among them who spearhead the change, just as it wasn't for us.
A post turtle is a turtle some sadistic SOB has placed atop a fence post. Assuming the turtle is large compared to the post, most land turtles (especially box turtles) cannot get off the post; they simply stay up there until they die or until someone stops and removes them. There's a joke that President Obama is a post turtle, because "you know he didn't get up there by himself, he doesn't belong there, he doesn't know what to do while he's up there and you just wonder what kind of dang fool put him up there to begin with!" ("Up there" referring to the Presidency, obviously.) The joke was used for Bush before him, and no doubt predates Bush as well.Why do you call him that?
t
But you support islam.
Which is real funny
And what we are saying is that statements like yours provide cover for the Islamic world.I'm not saying Christians and Christianity are as bad or worse than Islamic people and Islam. I'm saying the degree to which Islam is worse does not excuse Christians/Christianity for its misdeeds.
And what we are saying is that statements like yours provide cover for the Islamic world.
We need not stop criticizing Christianity in this or any other thread in order to criticize Islam. When it comes to religions there's plenty of room for all kinds of criticism. It's wrong to stifle any of it.
This doesn't really have anything to do with what I posted.
I was speaking about the Pilgrims who were very religious. The entire reason they came to the new land was to practice their religion.
There are Islamic texts that validate subjugation and violence towards women. I see no reason to pretend like those words have no meaning to Muslims. Some may argue that the Old Testament has similar barbaric practices, but Christian theology explicitly says that the New Testament represents a new covenant. Likewise, the destruction of the temple for Jews marked an end to sacrifices and the like. These are theological shifts away from the old barbaric practices. Islam has had no such reform.the problems he describes are principally cultural and have no necessary connection to Islam per se.
You're ignoring the fact that most people were Christian and therefore secularization happened in many ways from within. You didn't suddenly have atheists pop into existence from another dimension. They were former Christians who secularized. Also, it was a progressive reformation and secularization. The Protestant reformation was the first step. This progressed through modern sects like Quakers to basically non-Christian sects like Universalists.Second, what has actually happened is that the wider culture in which Christianity exists has secularized, and accordingly, many Christians have secularized and developed a more humanistic system of morality.
You're just speculating on what you think some hypothetical Christian theocracy would degenerate into. Let's actually look at what these Christian fundies do in reality. They try to push religion in wider society. They occasionally shoot abortion doctors. I don't see them stoning women or wrapping up women in burkas.Frankly I can't see any area where they'd be markely better.
OMG Christians did bad things 300 years ago!!!Yes and these self-same prilgrams hanged people in Salem for allegedly practicing witchcraft. They were hardly paragons of enlitenment thinking, and no better than present day Islamic fundies. They left to escape religious persecution but they weren't against the concept of religious persecution so long as they weren't the ones being persecuted.
OMG Christians did bad things 300 years ago!!!
Seriously? The bad behavior of Christians 300 years ago makes them equivalent to the bad behavior of Muslims today?
There are Islamic texts that validate subjugation and violence towards women. I see no reason to pretend like those words have no meaning to Muslims. Some may argue that the Old Testament has similar barbaric practices, but Christian theology explicitly says that the New Testament represents a new covenant. Likewise, the destruction of the temple for Jews marked an end to sacrifices and the like. These are theological shifts away from the old barbaric practices. Islam has had no such reform.
You're ignoring the fact that most people were Christian and therefore secularization happened in many ways from within. You didn't suddenly have atheists pop into existence from another dimension. They were former Christians who secularized. Also, it was a progressive reformation and secularization. The Protestant reformation was the first step. This progressed through modern sects like Quakers to basically non-Christian sects like Universalists.
I'm not denying that non-Christians have limited Christianity and had an effect on it though. More power to the critics. They should do the same with Islam though. You should note though that in the Enlightenment many thinkers took on Christian theology directly though. So when you act like many problems with Islam are mostly cultural, you're ignoring an avenue of criticism and reform.
You're just speculating on what you think some hypothetical Christian theocracy would degenerate into. Let's actually look at what these Christian fundies do in reality. They try to push religion in wider society. They occasionally shoot abortion doctors. I don't see them stoning women or wrapping up women in burkas.
Do you really believe that??You need to go back and read the entirely of my first post in this thread. My basic point: I see very little differnce in the mentality of Christian fundies and Islamic fundies today. The difference is that in our culture, we have many Chrisitans who aren't fundies, not so much in Islamic cultures. Further, our fundies are constrained by the fact that they are the minority here.
I would criticize Christians if they were stoning people for being raped or waging war on non-Christians.
As for Christians and gay marriage, I really don't care anymore.
Do you really believe that??
Christian fundies oppose gay marriage and abortion.
Islamic fundies strap bombs to themselves and blow up busses full of innocent people.
And yet you see no difference?
Do you really believe that??
Christian fundies oppose gay marriage and abortion.
Islamic fundies strap bombs to themselves and blow up busses full of innocent people.
And yet you see no difference?
"Imagine how fearful America will be, and they'll know they can't push the Muslims around."