Name the Poison

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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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How is this helpful? Why do you think Christianity has reformed itself? Maybe, just maybe, because of introspection and a little bit of criticism?

Enough of this bizarre equivalency with hypothetical time-traveling religions. People need to look at the Islam of TODAY. And sure, you can criticize Christianity too (I have and heck even some Christians do) but this is a thread about Islam and I don't see the same subjugation of women that I do in Christianity.


Exactly.

Yeah I don't disagree much with Condell other than the fact that the problems he describes are principally cultural and have no necessary connection to Islam per se. I am certainly no apologist for Islamic culture and would never downplay the repulsiveness of their attitudes toward women, gays and democracy like many people on the left do. However, I have a different take on Christianity's alleged "reformation."

First of all, Christian culture has been similarly barbaric through the vast majority of its history. Second, what has actually happened is that the wider culture in which Christianity exists has secularized, and accordingly, many Christians have secularized and developed a more humanistic system of morality. Yet the ones who remain fundies - I have my doubts that they would be any better than Islamic cultures if they were not operating in the context of a broader society that accepts secular humanistic principles. That wider context forces a certain degree of restaint on them. But what happens if say, bible belt Christian fundies are given their own country and their own theocracy, which is exactly the form of government they favor if given the choice? I doubt they'd be much better about anything than Islamic cultures. Frankly I can't see any area where they'd be markely better.

Similarly, take a bunch of Islamic fundies and put them in a wider culture where 75% of the populace has a modern, secular and humanistic orientation, and you probably see them exercising a lot more restraint because they have little choice. The only difference between Islamic countries and ours is that there, though most aren't terrorirsts, almost everyone is a fundie whereas here, our fundies are a 25% minority. It isn't that their fundies are worse than ours.

- wolf
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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Do you criticize any of the wrong things they do?
Give me some examples of their wrong doing and I will criticize them.


BTW most of the 'wrong things' that Christians do are the wrong doings of individuals acting outside the beliefs of their religion. The killing of abortion doctors or molestation of children is not condoned by the bible or accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

Yet many parts of the Islamic world believe that arresting rape victims for adultery is perfectly acceptable.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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Yeah I don't disagree much with Condell other than the fact that the problems he describes are principally cultural and have no necessary connection to Islam per se.
You were doing good up to that point.

Your understanding of Christian 'fundies' seems very limited at best.
And you seem to forget that our country was founded by a bunch of Christian 'fundies' and one of the first things they did was create a democratic government. They certainly relied on religious laws, but the leader of the colony was not the leader of the church.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
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BTW most of the 'wrong things' that Christians do are the wrong doings of individuals acting outside the beliefs of their religion. The killing of abortion doctors or molestation of children is not condoned by the bible or accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

It's condoned by some.

Yet many parts of the Islamic world believe that arresting rape victims for adultery is perfectly acceptable.

It's not acceptable to some.

I'm not saying Christians and Christianity are as bad or worse than Islamic people and Islam. I'm saying the degree to which Islam is worse does not excuse Christians/Christianity for its misdeeds.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
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You were doing good up to that point.

Your understanding of Christian 'fundies' seems very limited at best.
And you seem to forget that our country was founded by a bunch of Christian 'fundies' and one of the first things they did was create a democratic government. They certainly relied on religious laws, but the leader of the colony was not the leader of the church.

Yeah it's funny that, because western civilization was at that time in the grip of a move toward secular humanism, and the people who founded our government were among the *least* religious people of that time. I'm sorry to say that what we have achieved in western civilization in terms of democracy and humanism, not to mention advancement in science, was done more in spite of Christian fundamentalism than because of it.

Here's another way to put it: if or when Islamic countries every adopt true democracy, liberation for women, etc., it isn't going to be the most religious among them who spearhead the change, just as it wasn't for us.
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
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With the exception of mentioning hate, you just described all religions.. not just Islam.

But you support islam. Which is real funny. You might want to check out their policy on homosexuals. I'll help.....It's death to gays.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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Yeah it's funny that, because western civilization was at that time in the grip of a move toward secular humanism, and the people who founded our government were among the *least* religious people of that time. I'm sorry to say that what we have achieved in western civilization in terms of democracy and humanism, not to mention advancement in science, was done more in spite of Christian fundamentalism than because of it.

Here's another way to put it: if or when Islamic countries every adopt true democracy, liberation for women, etc., it isn't going to be the most religious among them who spearhead the change, just as it wasn't for us.
I was speaking about the Pilgrims who were very religious. The entire reason they came to the new land was to practice their religion.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Why do you call him that?

t
A post turtle is a turtle some sadistic SOB has placed atop a fence post. Assuming the turtle is large compared to the post, most land turtles (especially box turtles) cannot get off the post; they simply stay up there until they die or until someone stops and removes them. There's a joke that President Obama is a post turtle, because "you know he didn't get up there by himself, he doesn't belong there, he doesn't know what to do while he's up there and you just wonder what kind of dang fool put him up there to begin with!" ("Up there" referring to the Presidency, obviously.) The joke was used for Bush before him, and no doubt predates Bush as well.

Always makes me cringe. What kind of bastard puts a turtle on a post to slowly, helplessly die? Turtles do very little damage to anything, but beyond that, if you're going to kill something, freakin' kill it, don't torture it.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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I'm not saying Christians and Christianity are as bad or worse than Islamic people and Islam. I'm saying the degree to which Islam is worse does not excuse Christians/Christianity for its misdeeds.
And what we are saying is that statements like yours provide cover for the Islamic world.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
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And what we are saying is that statements like yours provide cover for the Islamic world.

How so, exactly?

The Islamic world will eventually get better. The cruel part is that it probably has to get worse before that will happen.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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We need not stop criticizing Christianity in this or any other thread in order to criticize Islam. When it comes to religions there's plenty of room for all kinds of criticism. It's wrong to stifle any of it.

This doesn't really have anything to do with what I posted.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
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I was speaking about the Pilgrims who were very religious. The entire reason they came to the new land was to practice their religion.

Yes and these self-same prilgrams hanged people in Salem for allegedly practicing witchcraft. They were hardly paragons of enlitenment thinking, and no better than present day Islamic fundies. They left to escape religious persecution but they weren't against the concept of religious persecution so long as they weren't the ones being persecuted.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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the problems he describes are principally cultural and have no necessary connection to Islam per se.
There are Islamic texts that validate subjugation and violence towards women. I see no reason to pretend like those words have no meaning to Muslims. Some may argue that the Old Testament has similar barbaric practices, but Christian theology explicitly says that the New Testament represents a new covenant. Likewise, the destruction of the temple for Jews marked an end to sacrifices and the like. These are theological shifts away from the old barbaric practices. Islam has had no such reform.

Second, what has actually happened is that the wider culture in which Christianity exists has secularized, and accordingly, many Christians have secularized and developed a more humanistic system of morality.
You're ignoring the fact that most people were Christian and therefore secularization happened in many ways from within. You didn't suddenly have atheists pop into existence from another dimension. They were former Christians who secularized. Also, it was a progressive reformation and secularization. The Protestant reformation was the first step. This progressed through modern sects like Quakers to basically non-Christian sects like Universalists.

I'm not denying that non-Christians have limited Christianity and had an effect on it though. More power to the critics. They should do the same with Islam though. You should note though that in the Enlightenment many thinkers took on Christian theology directly though. So when you act like many problems with Islam are mostly cultural, you're ignoring an avenue of criticism and reform.

Frankly I can't see any area where they'd be markely better.
You're just speculating on what you think some hypothetical Christian theocracy would degenerate into. Let's actually look at what these Christian fundies do in reality. They try to push religion in wider society. They occasionally shoot abortion doctors. I don't see them stoning women or wrapping up women in burkas.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
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Yes and these self-same prilgrams hanged people in Salem for allegedly practicing witchcraft. They were hardly paragons of enlitenment thinking, and no better than present day Islamic fundies. They left to escape religious persecution but they weren't against the concept of religious persecution so long as they weren't the ones being persecuted.
OMG Christians did bad things 300 years ago!!!

Seriously? The bad behavior of Christians 300 years ago makes them equivalent to the bad behavior of Muslims today?
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
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OMG Christians did bad things 300 years ago!!!

Seriously? The bad behavior of Christians 300 years ago makes them equivalent to the bad behavior of Muslims today?

You need to go back and read the entirely of my first post in this thread. My basic point: I see very little differnce in the mentality of Christian fundies and Islamic fundies today. The difference is that in our culture, we have many Chrisitans who aren't fundies, not so much in Islamic cultures. Further, our fundies are constrained by the fact that they are the minority here.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
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There are Islamic texts that validate subjugation and violence towards women. I see no reason to pretend like those words have no meaning to Muslims. Some may argue that the Old Testament has similar barbaric practices, but Christian theology explicitly says that the New Testament represents a new covenant. Likewise, the destruction of the temple for Jews marked an end to sacrifices and the like. These are theological shifts away from the old barbaric practices. Islam has had no such reform.

I'm not debating what is or isn't in one set of scriptures or another. I am debating the importance of them. Christianity has had the same scriptures for 2000 years, and for the most part, Christians behaved barbarically in the name of their religion for the vast majority of that time. That right there totally invalidates your argument that this is about the content of scriptures. In fact, it turns the argument on its head. Since the Christian scriptures are more peaceful, as you say, why then did so many Chrisitans behave barbarically in the name of their religion for so long?

You're ignoring the fact that most people were Christian and therefore secularization happened in many ways from within. You didn't suddenly have atheists pop into existence from another dimension. They were former Christians who secularized. Also, it was a progressive reformation and secularization. The Protestant reformation was the first step. This progressed through modern sects like Quakers to basically non-Christian sects like Universalists.

This is a complicated issue. To say it "happened from within" is true in the technical sense since essentially everyone was a Christian. That, however, begs the question of WHY it happened. Did it happen because of or in spite of Christianity? How much or how often did Chrisitanity support or oppose progress in science, arts, culture, politics? How often was Christianity on the wrong or right side of history? Any honest view of history will acknowledge that the answers to the those questions are mixed, but on balance, the changes would likely have happened sooner but for the existence and predominance of Christianity.

I'm not denying that non-Christians have limited Christianity and had an effect on it though. More power to the critics. They should do the same with Islam though. You should note though that in the Enlightenment many thinkers took on Christian theology directly though. So when you act like many problems with Islam are mostly cultural, you're ignoring an avenue of criticism and reform.

I'm not "acting" like it's cultural. It IS cultural. Religion changes and adapts to culture more than the other way around. Religion has been used, repeatedly throughout history, to legitimize the status quo and existing power structure. In the Islamic world, it is STILL used to justify the poverty of the masses and the tryanny of their rulers much as it was in the Christian world for almost 2 millenia. You act as if the fact that one culture is a couple hundred years behind another is all about differences in religious scriptures but that is just patently absurd. Yet the fact remains: the religion is used in service of maintaining an existing order. Religion has always been the cart following the horse.

As western society shifted toward "enlightenment," several things occrued with our religion. One group began to dissavow religion as illiberal. Those became the latter day atheists and agnostics. Another devolved to an ill defined spiritualism that rejects organized religion. A third began to interpret Christianity in ways compatible with modern enlightenment. Those are the non-fundy Christians who make up a huge percentage of our current society, who also tend to be more secular than religious in orientation. The last group remained fundies and have resisted almost everything about the enlightenment to this day. That group IMO is not siignificantly different than Islamic fundies. We bash Islam for hating homosexuals and distriminating against them, and as well we should, but what do our evangelicals thinks about homosexuality? We bash Islamic fundies for wanting to impose Sharia (religious law), but what do our fundies think about the relationship between religion and politics? Do they not want the state to be an instrument to legislate their religious moral code?

You're just speculating on what you think some hypothetical Christian theocracy would degenerate into. Let's actually look at what these Christian fundies do in reality. They try to push religion in wider society. They occasionally shoot abortion doctors. I don't see them stoning women or wrapping up women in burkas.

There is a difference between rank speculation and educated guessing. There is plenty of evidence of what Christian evangelicals in this country believe. They are not shy about expressing any of it.

- wolf
 
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ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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You need to go back and read the entirely of my first post in this thread. My basic point: I see very little differnce in the mentality of Christian fundies and Islamic fundies today. The difference is that in our culture, we have many Chrisitans who aren't fundies, not so much in Islamic cultures. Further, our fundies are constrained by the fact that they are the minority here.
Do you really believe that??

Christian fundies oppose gay marriage and abortion.

Islamic fundies strap bombs to themselves and blow up busses full of innocent people.

And yet you see no difference?
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
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I would criticize Christians if they were stoning people for being raped or waging war on non-Christians.

As for Christians and gay marriage, I really don't care anymore.

Would you criticize Christians who burned Christians that read the bible? What you blame on Islam is mainly tribal custom Mohammad tried to stap out. Men do evil and pervert sacred text to sanctify their crimes for the last four thousand years.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
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Do you really believe that??

Christian fundies oppose gay marriage and abortion.

Islamic fundies strap bombs to themselves and blow up busses full of innocent people.

And yet you see no difference?

"Kill them all and let God sort them out!" came from what religion? hint: European religious wars, Dark Age, com'on guess!
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
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Do you really believe that??

Christian fundies oppose gay marriage and abortion.

Islamic fundies strap bombs to themselves and blow up busses full of innocent people.

And yet you see no difference?

I think what differences there are between the two are the result of the fact that fundies in America are a minority in a greater society that has liberal values. They cannot take the most extreme positions and expect to remain enfranchised.

That said, you oversimplify the position of fundies on homosexuality to the issues currently under debate. As a general rule, fundies in this country seem to believe that homosexuality is evil. They routinely vote for state laws which permit discirimination against gays in perpetuity by prohibitting any law to prevent discrimination. In general they aren't out advocating the death penalty or life imprisonment for homosexualty. Then again, no one would listen to anything they had to say on any issue if they started doing that, these days.

As for Islamic terrorism, these jihadists are relatively prevalent because fundyism makes up the largest bloc of the populace in Islamic countries. If that were not the case, they would have to moderate their views and conduct so as not to become piariahs in their own cultures.

- wolf
 
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ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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So Woolfe.... two American citizens who converted to Islam were arrested today for planning a terrorist attack on American soil.

Doesn't that kind of kill your whole "fundies in America are a minority in a greater society that has liberal values." theory right out the window?


"Imagine how fearful America will be, and they'll know they can't push the Muslims around."
 
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