N. Korea vs S. Korea Rnd 2 (update 3-6)

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: Stiganator
Don't we have several carriers armed with rail guns that have a range that covers all of NK? I remember in 2006 they did some rattling and we moved in the carriers and they quieted down. I don't really understand how they let this fly. Letting your people starve when you have options is no different the killing them with biological weapons.

Uh, no railguns yet.

 

[Taejin]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
You guys are all wacko....
China would immediately come to the defense and aid of North Korea immediately once it was established we were going to obliterate the North Koreans....

China should just annex North Korea and be done with it. It would be an improvement for the lives of the North Koreans and we would have one less madman in the world to worry about. I do not like the PRC's rulers, but they are at least sane.

Or, South Korea should just Annex North Korea.

That would be like the US annexing Mexico. Why would we want to?

quite a bit different, actually.

more like west germany annexing east germany, you used to be one country and were seperated for dumb political reasons and share a common culture and history.

as it is right now, the big agitators for korean 'reunification' are the old guard of koreans who had families split up by the division of Korea into two countries. The new generation cares less and recognizes that there are (now) significant differences (ever see how brainwashed the North Koreans are?) and large scale economic problems South Koreans will be forced to absorb for the sake of their less educated, less informed and poorer North Korean brethren.

 

[Jiggz]

I'm quite sure the present admin has a plan in place in case war breaks out between the two Koreas.
1. Withdraw all US forces out of South Korea.
2. Order all personnel, ships, planes and submarines to stay out of the Korean Peninsula and Sea of Japan
3. Order beer and pizza and watch the news.

 

[Taejin]

Originally posted by: Jiggz
I'm quite sure the present admin has a plan in place in case war breaks out between the two Koreas.
1. Withdraw all US forces out of South Korea.
2. Order all personnel, ships, planes and submarines to stay out of the Korean Peninsula and Sea of Japan
3. Order beer and pizza and watch the news.

Is this kind of inanity really necessary for this thread?

 

[Possessed Freak]

Updated, now with twice as many threats!

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Smart move as we load troops, tanks, and trucks onto ships headed home from Iraq. Next stop SK.

I dont think the NK has the technology or training to be a serious threat. The days of swarming your enemy are done. Plus I bet if the SK troops offered bread in exchange for surrender it would be a success.

But all joking aside I dont see NK being able to take SK. Especially if we can get troops on the scene in a matter of days. If anything I could see China taking an opportunity to crush a pita and show a little military force in the region at the same time.

Why would the US need to put troops in the way. South Korea is plenty capable of taking care of it's self.

Besides, like you said, once the N. Koreans make it over the boarder, they'll hand over their guns for a pack of Ramen noodles and a box of kool-aid.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The ROK has the most sophisticated defense in depth system ever created, and a fully modern well equipped military, including an excellent day/night all weather airforce whose gear is *almost* equal to the US. They also have the US forces in Japan and Okinawa to back them up.

The DPRK has antiquated equipment and a chronic shortage of fuel, food, and spare parts. Their airforce is totally overmatched against their southern cousins. And they don't have any meaningful bakcup at this point, certainly not from the chinese or the russians.

Yeh, sure, DPRK artillery would wreak havoc in Seoul's northern suburbs, but they'd be annihilated if they came out into the open to attack across the DMZ.

The southerners won't attack because the price of winning is too high, and the northerners won't attack because the chances of losing are near total... lots of posturing, but little chance of catastrophic miscalculation from either party...

The problem is that North Korea's objectives are different than South Korea's. South Korea wants national prosperity, cultural unification, etc... etc. Mostly the same crap nearly every other country wants. North Korea's motivation is the survival of the regime, period. In some ways this is good, as it provides an easy lever to use on the country. (You attack the South and we guarantee we'll destroy your government) The bad side to that is if they ever feel like their regime is threatened they could become extremely unpredictable. In some ways it wouldn't be a 'catastrophic miscalculation', it would be a perfectly reasonable response if your regime's survival is all you care about.

 

[RichardE]

Non-issue. The days of ideological wars are past so Russia and China will not help North Korea since they have no reason to help there "communist dictator brother in arms" especially as China and Russia embrace a version of capitalism. (The days of pure ideologies are done too heh). I would bet 50$ that whoever is in charge has already been told by Putin and the Chinese Party they are on there own and they have already decided not to do anything.

If, and a big if, North Korea attacks South Korea we could very well see the first Superpower sponsored defense. It is a very real reality that China, Russia and the US would all bomb and attack North Korea in defense of South Korea who is a major trading partner to all 3 financial power houses.

 

[MadRat]

South Korea could buy unification like the West German unification plan. The problem is that China likes the division. China needs room to grow and North Korea is near prime virgin real estate. Just look at google maps and look how absolutely underwhelming it is to view the North Korean side of the border.

Last time the North Koreans had a maniacal dictator threaten all out war the Chinese capitulated the North Korean leadership and put in a new regime.

 

[Superrock]

If it comes to war, SK would rock NK in two steps.

Step 1: U.S. gives SK all of our unmanned robotics technology pertaining to warfare. Unmanned drones and the like.
Step 2: Tell the gosu starcraft players from SK that they're playing Starcraft2 to control these unmanned robots and utterly destroy the NK army.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
The US neither has the time nor energy or resources to engage in a drawn out conflict with NK and thus I can only assume that if NK attacks the US will have to flatten it and do it quickly. It would finally put down NK as a cancerous thorn and put out of their misery the millions there who live in varying states of hell and poverty.

I have to wonder if this is in any way related to Kimberly's health issues. Maybe he doesn't want to die while SK remains unfinished.

You are so totally mistaken.....or do yuo remember what happenned the first time around??

Let me refresh your mind......CHINA, CHINESE, CHINESE Soldiers so numerous it looked like somebody had spilled black pepper all over the country side.

For what it`s worth.....China will only allow the US to defend South Korea!!!!
The North has nothing to fear from us as long as China is big brother!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
NK I doubt would get anywhere. There are still thousands of US troops in the immediate area and of course it's watched closely with satellite for any troop movements. I'm positive that if they started to amass many by the border that the US would have ample time to do something about it.

North Korea will NOT mass at the border...there are tunnels running all through the DMZ!!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: ccryder
The last report I read on a NK invasion was 5 or 6 years ago, authored by US generals, and it predicted NK troops in Seoul in a matter of hours, the NK offense finally slowed around the 37th parallel, with the U.S. use of conventional nuclear weapons. The SK strategy was not offensive in nature, but included retreat and the destruction of SK bridges and highways behind them to slow the NK advance, and although I may be mistaken, some bridges are maintained prewired with explosives for this scenario. It was not a rosy report, and hopefully things have changed.

isn`t it time for your bedtime???
That`s complete BS.....
The last report I read on a NK invasion was 5 or 6 years ago, authored by US generals, and it predicted NK troops in Seoul in a matter of hours, the NK offense finally slowed around the 37th parallel, with the U.S. use of conventional nuclear weapons.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The ROK has the most sophisticated defense in depth system ever created, and a fully modern well equipped military, including an excellent day/night all weather airforce whose gear is *almost* equal to the US. They also have the US forces in Japan and Okinawa to back them up.

The DPRK has antiquated equipment and a chronic shortage of fuel, food, and spare parts. Their airforce is totally overmatched against their southern cousins. And they don't have any meaningful bakcup at this point, certainly not from the chinese or the russians.

Yeh, sure, DPRK artillery would wreak havoc in Seoul's northern suburbs, but they'd be annihilated if they came out into the open to attack across the DMZ.

The southerners won't attack because the price of winning is too high, and the northerners won't attack because the chances of losing are near total... lots of posturing, but little chance of catastrophic miscalculation from either party...

I want some od what you are smokin!! You actually believe the pro-Souith Korea propoganda???

 

[Possessed Freak]

I demand more missile tests!

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: ccryder
The last report I read on a NK invasion was 5 or 6 years ago, authored by US generals, and it predicted NK troops in Seoul in a matter of hours, the NK offense finally slowed around the 37th parallel, with the U.S. use of conventional nuclear weapons. The SK strategy was not offensive in nature, but included retreat and the destruction of SK bridges and highways behind them to slow the NK advance, and although I may be mistaken, some bridges are maintained prewired with explosives for this scenario. It was not a rosy report, and hopefully things have changed.

isn`t it time for your bedtime???
That`s complete BS.....
The last report I read on a NK invasion was 5 or 6 years ago, authored by US generals, and it predicted NK troops in Seoul in a matter of hours, the NK offense finally slowed around the 37th parallel, with the U.S. use of conventional nuclear weapons.

What are conventional nuclear weapons? Are you talking about tactical nuclear weapons. I am not sure I would refer to nukes as conventional.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: Genx87
Smart move as we load troops, tanks, and trucks onto ships headed home from Iraq. Next stop SK.

I dont think the NK has the technology or training to be a serious threat. The days of swarming your enemy are done. Plus I bet if the SK troops offered bread in exchange for surrender it would be a success.

But all joking aside I dont see NK being able to take SK. Especially if we can get troops on the scene in a matter of days. If anything I could see China taking an opportunity to crush a pita and show a little military force in the region at the same time.

Why would the US need to put troops in the way. South Korea is plenty capable of taking care of it's self.

Besides, like you said, once the N. Koreans make it over the boarder, they'll hand over their guns for a pack of Ramen noodles and a box of kool-aid.

US troops are in the way. 2 ID has always been forward deployed and will be the first unit to engage NK troops. Elements of one BCT is always up near the DMZ. The remainder of 2ID is at Ft Lewis and AFAIK is tasked to I Corps which is a follow on unit to Korea.

One of the reasons given for forward deployment was to act as a deterrent to NK invasion. If NK knows the first thing they meet will be a heavy US division, they may think twice. Another is the attempted protection of Seoul, though that would be very difficult.

Otherwise, forward deployment makes no sense. There are better defensible positions south of Seoul than north.

 

[StageLeft]

The US troops are a tripwire and are the reason why NK will not and cannot start a war with South Korea, because the reflex from losing US troops will be to turn NK into a firing range.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
The US troops are a tripwire and are the reason why NK will not and cannot start a war with South Korea, because the reflex from losing US troops will be to turn NK into a firing range.

Correct. US casualties in the first 48 hours will be very heavy and will engender a very strong response. NK will cease to exist within 30 days of opening a war.

Then of course all the idiot arm chair generals will come out and complain about how stupid it was to forward deploy and see several hundred dead GIs when (in their opinion) it would be better to have been south of Seoul.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: MadRat
South Korea could buy unification like the West German unification plan. The problem is that China likes the division. China needs room to grow and North Korea is near prime virgin real estate. Just look at google maps and look how absolutely underwhelming it is to view the North Korean side of the border.

Last time the North Koreans had a maniacal dictator threaten all out war the Chinese capitulated the North Korean leadership and put in a new regime.

When was this? North Korea has been ruled by either Kim Il Sung or Kim Jong Il since its liberation from the Japanese after WW2. Kim Il Sung not only threatened an all out war, but he conducted one and the Chinese didn't do a thing to his regime, in fact they probably lost a million or so men fighting for it.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: MadRat
Just look at google maps and look how absolutely underwhelming it is to view the North Korean side of the border.

wow, there's almost no cars on the roads of Pyongyang. It looks like a ghost town. by comparison, Seoul has plenty of traffic all throughout the city.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Superrock
If it comes to war, SK would rock NK in two steps.

Step 1: U.S. gives SK all of our unmanned robotics technology pertaining to warfare. Unmanned drones and the like.
Step 2: Tell the gosu starcraft players from SK that they're playing Starcraft2 to control these unmanned robots and utterly destroy the NK army.

Agreed :beer:

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: K1052
If he is testing the waters to see if he can get away with a military solution with Obama in the White House I expect he is going to be sorely disappointed.

NK cannot get away with any military solution. They simply cannot feed an army. What NK can do is blow the war horn hoping once again the world will capitulate and send more oil and food to that starving nation.

 

[Merithynos]

The thing is, the DPRK doesn't need to "win" a conventional war (i.e. conquer and hold all of the ROK). It only has to advance 25 miles south, dig in, and then force the US and ROK forces to dig them out of Seoul in house to house fighting. US, ROK, and civilian casualties would be catastrophic. It's likely that ROK forces could stop a DPRK invasion at the DMZ, but it's not guaranteed...and the US does not really have sufficient ground forces to commit to a third theater of combat, due to the heavy commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Keep in mind, too, the political climate of the region. There is no way the US can use tactical nukes in Korea due to the proximity to China. There is no guarantee Japan allows the US to use the bases there for offensive purposes (unless you think the DPRK likes to lob rockets over Japan as anything but an overt threat). There is no guarantee China won't rattle a few sabres of its own (keep in mind that China has a few bones of it's own to pick in the area, primarily Taiwan and the Spratly Islands/South China Sea).

It's not as simple as "OMGWTFUSWILLBOMBTHEMINTOTHESTONEAGE".

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: Merithynos
The thing is, the DPRK doesn't need to "win" a conventional war (i.e. conquer and hold all of the ROK). It only has to advance 25 miles south, dig in, and then force the US and ROK forces to dig them out of Seoul in house to house fighting. US, ROK, and civilian casualties would be catastrophic. It's likely that ROK forces could stop a DPRK invasion at the DMZ, but it's not guaranteed...and the US does not really have sufficient ground forces to commit to a third theater of combat, due to the heavy commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Keep in mind, too, the political climate of the region. There is no way the US can use tactical nukes in Korea due to the proximity to China. There is no guarantee Japan allows the US to use the bases there for offensive purposes (unless you think the DPRK likes to lob rockets over Japan as anything but an overt threat). There is no guarantee China won't rattle a few sabres of its own (keep in mind that China has a few bones of it's own to pick in the area, primarily Taiwan and the Spratly Islands/South China Sea).

It's not as simple as "OMGWTFUSWILLBOMBTHEMINTOTHESTONEAGE".

I have to disagree with some of your points. DPRK could probably advance to Seoul but then what. Dig in and slug it out? Tactically that makes no sense. If that happens ROK will not stop at the DMZ but will go north, at least for a bit. The US showed how to fight in built up areas in Baghdad with the "Thunder Runs". They were absolutely devastating. So Seoul will be costly, but not like Stalingrad say in WWII.

ROK troops should be able to supply most of the ground forces. USAF and USN air power will do the rest including cruise missiles. 2 ID can be airlifted into Pusan in about a week and marry up with prepositined equipment.

Japan will have no problem allowing bases to be used for both logistical and offensive operations. There is no way Japan wants DPRK in the south.

China will assimilate Taiwan peacefully. It only has to wait ala Hong Kong. It will happen eventually.