Mythbusters to take on "the plane and the treadmill" conundrum?

[sao123]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

None.

So if I place an object on a treadmill it isn't going to move?

The intertia of a heavy object on free wheels...
"an object at rest will stay at rest"
The force of the treadmill will be allocated into angular acceleration of the wheels, it will not be transferred linearly to the body of the plane.
You do realize you can spin the wheel of a plane without it moving correct?

LOL you really think that if I just put a wheel on a treadmill it isn't ever going to move?

if its a free rotating wheel, the central axel does not ever have to move. period.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

None.

So if I place an object on a treadmill it isn't going to move?

The intertia of a heavy object on free wheels...
"an object at rest will stay at rest"
The force of the treadmill will be allocated into angular acceleration of the wheels, it will not be transferred linearly to the body of the plane.
You do realize you can spin the wheel of a plane without it moving correct?

LOL you really think that if I just put a wheel on a treadmill it isn't ever going to move?

if its a free rotating wheel, the central axel does not ever have to move. period.

Well that is just wrong.

 

[jimbob200521]

Originally posted by: mugs
I would like to revise my earlier assumption about MasonLuke's age (18-21) to somewhere in the 13-15 range.

I think you are still a bit high at that...

 

[jimbob200521]

At this point, I no longer see the point in arguing this and prolong this (dead horse) thread. To the people that continue to debate with MasonLuke and smack Down, you are fighting a losing battle.

-Ryan

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

None.

So if I place an object on a treadmill it isn't going to move?

The intertia of a heavy object on free wheels...
"an object at rest will stay at rest"
The force of the treadmill will be allocated into angular acceleration of the wheels, it will not be transferred linearly to the body of the plane.
You do realize you can spin the wheel of a plane without it moving correct?

LOL you really think that if I just put a wheel on a treadmill it isn't ever going to move?

if its a free rotating wheel, the central axel does not ever have to move. period.

Well that is just wrong.

what part of free rotating do you not understand?

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

None.

So if I place an object on a treadmill it isn't going to move?

The intertia of a heavy object on free wheels...
"an object at rest will stay at rest"
The force of the treadmill will be allocated into angular acceleration of the wheels, it will not be transferred linearly to the body of the plane.
You do realize you can spin the wheel of a plane without it moving correct?

LOL you really think that if I just put a wheel on a treadmill it isn't ever going to move?

if its a free rotating wheel, the central axel does not ever have to move. period.

Well that is just wrong.

So if i turn my bicycle upside down and spin the wheels, the obviously the bike must move foreward a distance and scrape the seat off the ground?
:roll::roll::roll::roll:

A spinning wheel does not guarantee net linear motion for the central pivot point!!!!!!!!

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Garth
Please refer to this page offer by the US Dept of Energy.

I quote Dick Plano, Professor of Physics emeritus, Rutgers University, from that page:

If I properly understand your travelator, the travelator moves at
exactly the speed of the airplane, but in the opposite
direction. This means the wheels rotate twice as fast as they would
on a normal runway and nothing else is different. Right?

In that case, I claim the plane would take off normally except that
the wheels would be rotating twice as fast as normally. Since the
frictional force is, as you say, f=uR, the frictional force will be
exactly the same in the two cases since v does not appear in the
equation for the frictional force. In other words, the frictional
force is independent of the speed. In that case the forces on the
plane are exactly the same whether the travelator is operating or
not and so the plane takes off the same way in the two cases.

Can either Mason or Smack provide just 1 link from ANYWHERE that agrees with their position?

Like I said for the last 800 well 900 post we are not talking about that case.

Can you provided even one link that says the plane will take off when the question is read the otherway.

There is no other coherent reading of the problem. Every post in which I've explained exactly why that is, you've totally ignored.

The ball is now in YOUR court to explain how a moving treadmill can somehow be matching the speed of plane that isn't moving.

 

[randay]

and once again, smack down, now joined by his alter ego masonluke, has failed to trick anyone into thinking that the airplane wont take off. join us two weeks from now, when a third troll(TBA) joins the fray.

 

[oddyager]

I am appalled that this thread has gone on for that long. It doesn't matter what kind of force is driving you forward. If this "conveyor belt" is going in the opposite direction and matching your speed, you are not moving forward, and therefore you are not going to create lift. The engines of a plane are not what's giving the plane lift. They just give it thrust to propel it forward against the air. However, if you find the means to blow air against the plane at X MPH while the conveyor belt is running (like a wind tunnel) then you will create lift. Of course I can see a disaster waiting to happen with that experiment.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: oddyager
I am appalled that this thread has gone on for that long. It doesn't matter what kind of force is driving you forward. If this "conveyor belt" is going in the opposite direction and matching your speed, you are not moving forward, and therefore you are not going to create lift. The engines of a plane are not what's giving the plane lift. They just give it thrust to propel it forward against the air. However, if you find the means to blow air against the plane at X MPH while the conveyor belt is running (like a wind tunnel) then you will create lift.

We are appalled at your complete lack of understanding of freshman high school physics.
go back to school before you post again.

 

[amish]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

Why would the engines be off? If the engines are off, the plane has nowhere to get thrust (read: movement) from.

Have you been under the impression this whole time that the planes engines are off?

WTF your just trolling or really retard.

I'm trying to get you to understand the force involved. It is easyer to just consider one at a time. But i guess you are to retard for that.

Screw being nice, I can't take it anymore.

You and Masonfvck are retarded.

1.Plane that is off + treadmill that is off = no movement from either.

2.Plane that is off + treadmill that is on = plane moving in the direction the treadmill is moving

3.Plane that is on + treadmill that is off = plane moving in the direction the engines are directed

4.Plane that is on + treadmill that is on = plane moving in the direction the engines are directed.
You are mentally retarded. I see no other reason that you cannot comprehend this.

Yes, I am resorting to the level that Smack and Mason have gone to. After arguing this for who knows how long, I am getting tired of it. I know others feel the same, but have had the will power I wish I had to stop posting in this thread.

What a retard. 1-3 just proved 4 wrong.

LOL, too funny. Thanks for the proof that it cant fly.

why would you quote yourself and how does 1-3 prove 4 wrong?? do you have problems with logic?

1+1=2?
a^2 + b^2 = c^2?
if mary shook john's hand did john shake mary's hand?

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: oddyager
I am appalled that this thread has gone on for that long. It doesn't matter what kind of force is driving you forward. If this "conveyor belt" is going in the opposite direction and matching your speed, you are not moving forward, and therefore you are not going to create lift. The engines of a plane are not what's giving the plane lift. They just give it thrust to propel it forward against the air. However, if you find the means to blow air against the plane at X MPH while the conveyor belt is running (like a wind tunnel) then you will create lift. Of course I can see a disaster waiting to happen with that experiment.

<sigh> This is exactly WHY this thread has continued for so long. It's ok, this problem is much like the Monty Hall problem in that it fools even intelligent people. However most of them accept the correct answer when shown overwhelming evidence. Only a few are too bullheaded to admit they could be wrong.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

My theory is simple if the plane moving forward cause the wheels to roll. Rolling the wheels backwards cause the plane to go backwards. All the thrust goes towards accelerating the wheels on the treadmill.

Theoretically, your theory is fine...if the plane were to get its movement from the wheels. But it does not. The wheels do nothing but prevent the plane from scraping on the ground. The jets push the plane forward via thrust, and when this is done, the wheels spin freely against the ground.

Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

Say you stand on a treadmill with roller skates on and a fvcking rocket on your back. You set the rocket off, and at the same time the treadmill moves at the speed you are. What happens? Do you move forward or stay in one spot?

Screw you're "leave stupid analogies" statement, answer that question. If you say you will stay in one spot, you do not know what thrust and force are.

Assuming the treadmill matches your speed then yes you stay in place. Like I said leave your stupid analogies at the door we all understand the question. You need equations and only equations to show you are right. Which you are not.

Your reply to my question is my case in point. I'm done.

Oh, and you never answered my question of "how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?"

By spining the wheels backwards.

That still doesn't answer my question. How does the treadmill counter the T - H - R -U -S -T provided by the planes jets. Thrust pushes against air, not the ground.

With no relative motion, a commercial plane, and most military aircraft, cannot take off.

Depending on which way you look at it, the plane is either moving on a treadmill 2 miles long, or is being held in place by resistance from the wheels on the treadmill.

If the plane moves, it can take off.

If the plane is stationary, even at full power it wont have any lift.

Exactly. but since the treadmill counters forward movement of the wheels, it its stationary, thus will not take off.

Link evidence that this is true?

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke
This is the actual question, i did not write this:


?Imagine a plane is sitting on a massive conveyor belt, as wide and as long as a runway. The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels, moving in the opposite direction. Can the plane take off?"



Designed to EXACTLY match the speed of the wheels = no friction.

Kids, be proud of yourselves, you and all the ATOT crew PROVED the plane wont fly.


/thread

You, sir...are not very bright. Mommy and Daddy must be so proud

 

[Squisher]

Let's double the parameters for a little change up.

A plane is moving at 200 mph on the treadmill. The treadmill is moving at 400 mph in the opposite direction. If I were a wheel I would feel like I was spinning at a speed of a plane going 600 mph. But, who cares? The plane is still moving at 200 mph in relation to the air and sufficient lift is acquired.

Are we saying that this scenario is unpossible?

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521
Ahhh...so this is where your confusion comes from. Friction is the only force that acts on the plane between the ground and the plane (and no, before you say it, the friction does not act directly on the plane).

No it isn't. Lets forget about the treadmill for a moment. What force is cause the wheel to move as the plane drives down the runway? It isn't friction.

Correct, it is not friction. The wheels spinning is the result of the movement of the plane. The plane is moving because the trust of the jets is pushing against the surrounding air pushing the plane forward.

Edit don't forget to included the equations this time.

So clearly friction isn't the only force. Now what forces act on a plane when I put it on a treadmill with the engines off?

None.

So if I place an object on a treadmill it isn't going to move?

The intertia of a heavy object on free wheels...
"an object at rest will stay at rest"
The force of the treadmill will be allocated into angular acceleration of the wheels, it will not be transferred linearly to the body of the plane.
You do realize you can spin the wheel of a plane without it moving correct?

LOL you really think that if I just put a wheel on a treadmill it isn't ever going to move?

if its a free rotating wheel, the central axel does not ever have to move. period.

Well that is just wrong.

what part of free rotating do you not understand?

Which part of rotational inertia don't you understand.

Anyways I found this post with a cool video that shows how clueless you are.

Here is a glimpse into how a treadmill pushes a wheel back as it accelerates. Note the set-up:

I'm a newbie and they won't let me post links...? What the heck? How do I over-ride this??
Look at the picture; you will have to put http colon slash slash in front of this URL:

hallbuzz.com/images/unlinked/wheel_on_sander.JPG

The fire extinguisher is an anchor (overkill, I know) for the rubber band that is tied to a wire that is looped through the axel of the wheel. To keep everything aligned, the wire goes through tubes that are taped to the green stool.

The wheel is resting on the belt sander. When the sander is turned on, the sander and the wheel gain RPM for less than ½ a second. During this time, the wheel shoots to the right, stretching the rubber band. When the sander and wheel stop accelerating and the RPM become constant, the wheel is no longer gaining significant energy from the belt and the rubber band pulls the wheel back to the left where it spins merrily in a steady state of energy.

Watch the movie; you will have to put http colon slash slash in front of this URL:

hallbuzz.com/movies/wheel_on_sander.AVI

(1.2 MB ~ 3 seconds)

The acceleration of the wheel stretched the rubber band in the direction of the treadmill (belt sander). This is an example of how a treadmill of unlimited speed could load energy into a wheel of unlimited strength (and through a perfect bearing) through rotational acceleration. Since the force is only applied to the bottom of the wheel where it contacts the treadmill, it is not balanced. A vector of the force is applied to the axel in the same direction of the belt. Note that it will not prevent the plane from moving if it only accelerates for ½ a second. The acceleration (increase in RPM) must be constant, and must be massive.

Watch the movie and imagine things on a much greater scale.

 

[IronWing]

I think an intelligently designed plane will take off while an evolved plane will just sniff and root around the treadmill looking for lychees.

 

[Zoblefu]

What if the treadmill was going in the other direction? every time the wheels almost rolled forwards it would get cancelled out by the treadmill... the plane would take off without the wheels moving at all... right?

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: Zoblefu
What if the treadmill was going in the other direction? every time the wheels almost rolled forwards it would get cancelled out by the treadmill... the plane would take off without the wheels moving at all... right?

If the treadmill sped up at the same rate as the plane accelerated then yep, you're correct.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Squisher
Let's double the parameters for a little change up.

A plane is moving at 200 mph on the treadmill. The treadmill is moving at 400 mph in the opposite direction. If I were a wheel I would feel like I was spinning at a speed of a plane going 600 mph. But, who cares? The plane is still moving at 200 mph in relation to the air and sufficient lift is acquired.

Are we saying that this scenario is unpossible?

Realistically it's impossible because the tire would fly apart. But since we're talking about a giant treadmill with a plane on it, I guess the tire isn't supposed to break.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Squisher
Let's double the parameters for a little change up.

A plane is moving at 200 mph on the treadmill. The treadmill is moving at 400 mph in the opposite direction. If I were a wheel I would feel like I was spinning at a speed of a plane going 600 mph. But, who cares? The plane is still moving at 200 mph in relation to the air and sufficient lift is acquired.

Are we saying that this scenario is unpossible?

Realistically it's impossible because the tire would fly apart. But since we're talking about a giant treadmill with a plane on it, I guess the tire isn't supposed to break.

I figured that might give people pause even though the land speed record is 763.035 mph Text

 

[amish]

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Squisher
Let's double the parameters for a little change up.

A plane is moving at 200 mph on the treadmill. The treadmill is moving at 400 mph in the opposite direction. If I were a wheel I would feel like I was spinning at a speed of a plane going 600 mph. But, who cares? The plane is still moving at 200 mph in relation to the air and sufficient lift is acquired.

Are we saying that this scenario is unpossible?

Realistically it's impossible because the tire would fly apart. But since we're talking about a giant treadmill with a plane on it, I guess the tire isn't supposed to break.

I figured that might give people pause even though the land speed record is 763.035 mph Text

the car that broke the speed record had solid rubber tires. IIRC it was a thin strip of rubber that was wound around the rim.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: amish

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Squisher
Let's double the parameters for a little change up.

A plane is moving at 200 mph on the treadmill. The treadmill is moving at 400 mph in the opposite direction. If I were a wheel I would feel like I was spinning at a speed of a plane going 600 mph. But, who cares? The plane is still moving at 200 mph in relation to the air and sufficient lift is acquired.

Are we saying that this scenario is unpossible?

Realistically it's impossible because the tire would fly apart. But since we're talking about a giant treadmill with a plane on it, I guess the tire isn't supposed to break.

I figured that might give people pause even though the land speed record is 763.035 mph Text

the car that broke the speed record had solid rubber tires. IIRC it was a thin strip of rubber that was wound around the rim.

And, probably woven with kevlar. That still doesn't make an impossibility.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: amish

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Squisher
Let's double the parameters for a little change up.

A plane is moving at 200 mph on the treadmill. The treadmill is moving at 400 mph in the opposite direction. If I were a wheel I would feel like I was spinning at a speed of a plane going 600 mph. But, who cares? The plane is still moving at 200 mph in relation to the air and sufficient lift is acquired.

Are we saying that this scenario is unpossible?

Realistically it's impossible because the tire would fly apart. But since we're talking about a giant treadmill with a plane on it, I guess the tire isn't supposed to break.

I figured that might give people pause even though the land speed record is 763.035 mph Text

the car that broke the speed record had solid rubber tires. IIRC it was a thin strip of rubber that was wound around the rim.

No, Thrust SSC had no tires. It just had solid discs of aluminum.
Text

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Squisher

I figured that might give people pause even though the land speed record is 763.035 mph Text

The land speed record is 763 mph, but then again that vehicle had no tires.