Mythbusters to take on "the plane and the treadmill" conundrum?

[JujuFish]

DIE THREAD, DIE.

 

[Rubycon]

OMG why is this even a debate???!!

Ok let's FORGET about the airplane. If you just take a pipe with a wheel on the end, hold it in your hand with the wheel resting on the treadmill.

A friend has a variac hooked to Hoover Dam. The treadmill can go blindingly fast. Your job is to sweep the pipe across the treadmill while your friend with the multimegawatt variac gives the juice. Guess what? The pipe will move across in the direction you push it! The wheels will go fast, yes and their top speed is ultimately determined by how fast the pipe reaches the end of the moving belt.

This is important because if the plane can move, it will take off! And it will! Stop beating the horse already. It's looking like hamburger and that will attract the rats!

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: mobobuff
Are you serious? This got bumped again? No surprise it was bumped by a nontakeroffer.

Originally posted by: sao123

Assuming the wheels are free to spin...similar to any plane ready for take off...
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/sao123/plane.JPG">At what speed will the treadmille cause this rope to break?
</a>

That's a good way to explain it. I'd like to see MasonLuke answer that.

Yeah, me too.

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: mobobuff
Are you serious? This got bumped again? No surprise it was bumped by a nontakeroffer.

Originally posted by: sao123

Assuming the wheels are free to spin...similar to any plane ready for take off...
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/sao123/plane.JPG">At what speed will the treadmille cause this rope to break?
</a>

That's a good way to explain it. I'd like to see MasonLuke answer that.

Yeah, me too.

Ha... trick question. We all know that is braided monofiliment unobtanium.

 

[MasonLuke]

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

:laugh:

You keep jumping from "the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed" to "the plane is stationary" but one does not follow from the other.

 

[JujuFish]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

Hey look, you did it again! :laugh:

 

[James Bond]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

You've got to be kidding me.

Your argument: The treadmill is pushing the opposite direction, so the plane cannot move forward.

That is completely wrong. If you put a car on a treadmill, the car will not go forward, like you say. But we are dealing with a jet--even if the treadmill is going a few hundred miles per hour in the opposite way, it will not affect the plane because the wheels on the plane are free-spinning. If a plane turns on its jets, it could still go forward with almost no energy, because it is the JETS that push the aircraft, not the wheels.

 

[hellokeith]

Has anyone made the argument that after 35 thread pages if the plane hasn't taken off by now it never will?

 

[Geocentricity]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

I've read and examined both sides of the argument, both have valid points to my personal knowledge.

HOWEVER:

There needs to be a sufficient pressure difference (high/low) on the wings to be able to lift and fly, correct? (to the best of my knowledge of fluid mechanics)

The plane on the treadmill would not be moving forward, so only the pressure beneath the wing would change. The pressure above stays atmospheric while the bottom pressure goes up.

See here http://observe.arc.nasa.gov/nasa/exhibits/planes/planes_1c.html


I do not know the required amount of lift or the amount of thrust required to provide lift when the top pressure is still at atmospheric. But if the power of the engines do not provide the pressure difference needed, then there will be no lift.


What Mason says about the jets taking off from a carrier is correct: the "launching" mechanism is used to provide the needed pressure difference (which becomes lift) by forcing air ABOVE AND BELOW the wings via propelling the plane FORWARD.

The flaw I see in Mason's justification is the treadmill doing work against the plane. The wheel against the treadmill surface is free-rolling, so there is no work done against each other.

 

[randay]

for fvcks sake, cant we get this masonluke bitch banned already for continually trying to necro this stupid fvcking thread? its probably smack down anyway. stop fvcking talking about this stupid ass sh!t.

 

[MasonLuke]

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

You've got to be kidding me.

Your argument: The treadmill is pushing the opposite direction, so the plane cannot move forward.

That is completely wrong. If you put a car on a treadmill, the car will not go forward, like you say. But we are dealing with a jet--even if the treadmill is going a few hundred miles per hour in the opposite way, it will not affect the plane because the wheels on the plane are free-spinning. If a plane turns on its jets, it could still go forward with almost no energy, because it is the JETS that push the aircraft, not the wheels.

you kids are stupid. the jets pushes the plane forward via the wheels. the wheels are on the treadmill. no matter how fast even supersonic, the treadmill counters its affect. dont you get it.

 

[MasonLuke]

Originally posted by: randay
for fvcks sake, cant we get this masonluke bitch banned already for continually trying to necro this stupid fvcking thread? its probably smack down anyway. stop fvcking talking about this stupid ass sh!t.

if you are not interestd in this thread, do not read nor post.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

You've got to be kidding me.

Your argument: The treadmill is pushing the opposite direction, so the plane cannot move forward.

That is completely wrong. If you put a car on a treadmill, the car will not go forward, like you say. But we are dealing with a jet--even if the treadmill is going a few hundred miles per hour in the opposite way, it will not affect the plane because the wheels on the plane are free-spinning. If a plane turns on its jets, it could still go forward with almost no energy, because it is the JETS that push the aircraft, not the wheels.

If you want to make bad analogies can you at least pick ones that make senses a car will act just like the plane you idiot. If you read it one way a car will stay stationary and so will the plane. Read it the other way both will move. There has been no proposed reading which allows the plane to take off but the car to stay stationary.

 

[jimbob200521]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

This is going to be my last response to one of your posts as you clearly do not understand this.

You say that the plane needs forward motion to take off. Correct, no one is arguing that it does not. What people (you) are arguing over is whether or not the plane would have forward movement in the given scenario. The answer is that it would have forward movement b/c the jets/propeller propel the plane forward. The wheels on the plane are not going to do enough to stop the plane.

You say that in the original problem, "the treadmill moves in equal and opposite direction of the wheels". Although what you said is true, it is also true that it was stated in the original problem is that it (treadmill) would match the planes speed in the opposite direction. Since ground speed is different than air speed (air speed is not effected (enough) by ground speed to matter), the plane would continue to move. Also remember that force is different than wheel speed. The wheels on the plane will be turning at the opposite speed, not force, that the plane is moving. The wheels will turn really really fast, that is all.

Finally, I would like to refer to a previous statement I made:

For those that say that the plane would not take off, do you realize that you are saying that a plane is driven via it's wheels?

Do you realize that that is what you are saying, MasonLuke?

 

[yosuke188]

After 18 pages.....

The plane takes off

/thread

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

You've got to be kidding me.

Your argument: The treadmill is pushing the opposite direction, so the plane cannot move forward.

That is completely wrong. If you put a car on a treadmill, the car will not go forward, like you say. But we are dealing with a jet--even if the treadmill is going a few hundred miles per hour in the opposite way, it will not affect the plane because the wheels on the plane are free-spinning. If a plane turns on its jets, it could still go forward with almost no energy, because it is the JETS that push the aircraft, not the wheels.

you kids are stupid. the jets pushes the plane forward via the wheels. the wheels are on the treadmill. no matter how fast even supersonic, the treadmill counters its affect. dont you get it.

Re-read this, it might help you get it: the wheels of a plane are free-spinning. What does that mean to you? I think your best strategy is to ponder that, then think about the difference between the use of a plane's wheels and that of a car's.

On a plane, does the force generated by it's jet engines act on the wheels? Absolutely not. On a car, does the force generated by the engine act on it's wheels? Unequivicably, yes. Think about it....

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

This is going to be my last response to one of your posts as you clearly do not understand this.

You say that the plane needs forward motion to take off. Correct, no one is arguing that it does not. What people (you) are arguing over is whether or not the plane would have forward movement in the given scenario. The answer is that it would have forward movement b/c the jets/propeller propel the plane forward. The wheels on the plane are not going to do enough to stop the plane.

You say that in the original problem, "the treadmill moves in equal and opposite direction of the wheels". Although what you said is true, it is also true that it was stated in the original problem is that it (treadmill) would match the planes speed in the opposite direction. Since ground speed is different than air speed (air speed is not effected (enough) by ground speed to matter), the plane would continue to move. Also remember that force is different than wheel speed. The wheels on the plane will be turning at the opposite speed, not force, that the plane is moving. The wheels will turn really really fast, that is all.

Finally, I would like to refer to a previous statement I made:

For those that say that the plane would not take off, do you realize that you are saying that a plane is driven via it's wheels?

Do you realize that that is what you are saying, MasonLuke?

No one is saying a plane is driving by it wheels.

The question is if the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill surface (ie speed the wheels see) -- Plane doesn't take off OR the treadmill matches the ground speed of the plane -- Plane takes off.

 

[MasonLuke]

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

This is going to be my last response to one of your posts as you clearly do not understand this.

You say that the plane needs forward motion to take off. Correct, no one is arguing that it does not. What people (you) are arguing over is whether or not the plane would have forward movement in the given scenario. The answer is that it would have forward movement b/c the jets/propeller propel the plane forward. The wheels on the plane are not going to do enough to stop the plane.

You say that in the original problem, "the treadmill moves in equal and opposite direction of the wheels". Although what you said is true, it is also true that it was stated in the original problem is that it (treadmill) would match the planes speed in the opposite direction. Since ground speed is different than air speed (air speed is not effected (enough) by ground speed to matter), the plane would continue to move. Also remember that force is different than wheel speed. The wheels on the plane will be turning at the opposite speed, not force, that the plane is moving. The wheels will turn really really fast, that is all.

Finally, I would like to refer to a previous statement I made:

For those that say that the plane would not take off, do you realize that you are saying that a plane is driven via it's wheels?

Do you realize that that is what you are saying, MasonLuke?

please read my post. i am not saying the plane is driven by its wheels, i said the plane moves via its wheels on the ground. when the plane is airborne, wheels has nothing to do with it. BUT the plane never has the opportunity to get off the ground because of the treadmill.

 

[jimbob200521]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

This is going to be my last response to one of your posts as you clearly do not understand this.

You say that the plane needs forward motion to take off. Correct, no one is arguing that it does not. What people (you) are arguing over is whether or not the plane would have forward movement in the given scenario. The answer is that it would have forward movement b/c the jets/propeller propel the plane forward. The wheels on the plane are not going to do enough to stop the plane.

You say that in the original problem, "the treadmill moves in equal and opposite direction of the wheels". Although what you said is true, it is also true that it was stated in the original problem is that it (treadmill) would match the planes speed in the opposite direction. Since ground speed is different than air speed (air speed is not effected (enough) by ground speed to matter), the plane would continue to move. Also remember that force is different than wheel speed. The wheels on the plane will be turning at the opposite speed, not force, that the plane is moving. The wheels will turn really really fast, that is all.

Finally, I would like to refer to a previous statement I made:

For those that say that the plane would not take off, do you realize that you are saying that a plane is driven via it's wheels?

Do you realize that that is what you are saying, MasonLuke?

No one is saying a plane is driving by it wheels.

The question is if the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill surface (ie speed the wheels see) -- Plane doesn't take off OR the treadmill matches the ground speed of the plane -- Plane takes off.

You are correct and incorrect at the same time, let me explain...

You said that

"The question is if the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill surface (ie speed the wheels see) -- Plane doesn't take off"

The statement you made is correct, the treadmill would match the planes speed relative to the treadmill. The conclusion you came to is incorrect, however; the plane would take off. The treadmill would be matching the planes forward speed by spinning in the opposite direction of the plane at an equal speed. So if the plane is going forward at 100mph, the treadmill would be going the opposite direction at 100mph, meaning the wheels on the plane would move at 200mph.

So, could you explain to me how the wheels would stop the plane (if you are of the belief that the plane would not take off, that is)?

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

This is going to be my last response to one of your posts as you clearly do not understand this.

You say that the plane needs forward motion to take off. Correct, no one is arguing that it does not. What people (you) are arguing over is whether or not the plane would have forward movement in the given scenario. The answer is that it would have forward movement b/c the jets/propeller propel the plane forward. The wheels on the plane are not going to do enough to stop the plane.

You say that in the original problem, "the treadmill moves in equal and opposite direction of the wheels". Although what you said is true, it is also true that it was stated in the original problem is that it (treadmill) would match the planes speed in the opposite direction. Since ground speed is different than air speed (air speed is not effected (enough) by ground speed to matter), the plane would continue to move. Also remember that force is different than wheel speed. The wheels on the plane will be turning at the opposite speed, not force, that the plane is moving. The wheels will turn really really fast, that is all.

Finally, I would like to refer to a previous statement I made:

For those that say that the plane would not take off, do you realize that you are saying that a plane is driven via it's wheels?

Do you realize that that is what you are saying, MasonLuke?

No one is saying a plane is driving by it wheels.

The question is if the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill surface (ie speed the wheels see) -- Plane doesn't take off OR the treadmill matches the ground speed of the plane -- Plane takes off.

You are correct and incorrect at the same time, let me explain...

You said that

"The question is if the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill surface (ie speed the wheels see) -- Plane doesn't take off"

The statement you made is correct, the treadmill would match the planes speed relative to the treadmill. The conclusion you came to is incorrect, however; the plane would take off. The treadmill would be matching the planes forward speed by spinning in the opposite direction of the plane at an equal speed. So if the plane is going forward at 100mph, the treadmill would be going the opposite direction at 100mph, meaning the wheels on the plane would move at 200mph.

So, could you explain to me how the wheels would stop the plane (if you are of the belief that the plane would not take off, that is)?

Wow, please reread what you just wrote. Simply by definition of the problem that why forward movement is impossible. In your example you broke the condition requiring the treadmill to match the wheel speed by having the wheel go at 200 mph yet the treadmill is only running at 100 mph .

 

[JujuFish]

Originally posted by: smack Down
Wow, please reread what you just wrote. Simply by definition of the problem that why forward movement is impossible. In your example you broke the condition requiring the treadmill to match the wheel speed by having the wheel go at 200 mph yet the treadmill is only running at 100 mph .

Rotational velocity, yes. However, their respective linear velocities are equal and opposite.

 

[MasonLuke]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs
Wow MasonLuke, way to look like an idiot and an asshole at the same time. :laugh:

You and everyone else who thinks the plane will take take is sooooo stupid.
Stubborn little $hits

Kids, please dont forget the original premise that the treadmill moves in the equal and opposite direction of the wheels.

Once again kids, plane needs forward movement to get lift. Without it, a plane cannot take off. you kids ever watch a plane take off from a carrier? it its catapulted FORWARD and without that forward movement there is no lift.

When the wheels spin on the treadmill, the treadmill is moving in the exact opposite speed and direction, so the plane is stationary. no forward movement, no lift, no flight.
/end

please dont be stupid all your life, and listen to reason. stop with the friction or tighing a rope and pulling it forward or whatever it may be.

This is going to be my last response to one of your posts as you clearly do not understand this.

You say that the plane needs forward motion to take off. Correct, no one is arguing that it does not. What people (you) are arguing over is whether or not the plane would have forward movement in the given scenario. The answer is that it would have forward movement b/c the jets/propeller propel the plane forward. The wheels on the plane are not going to do enough to stop the plane.

You say that in the original problem, "the treadmill moves in equal and opposite direction of the wheels". Although what you said is true, it is also true that it was stated in the original problem is that it (treadmill) would match the planes speed in the opposite direction. Since ground speed is different than air speed (air speed is not effected (enough) by ground speed to matter), the plane would continue to move. Also remember that force is different than wheel speed. The wheels on the plane will be turning at the opposite speed, not force, that the plane is moving. The wheels will turn really really fast, that is all.

Finally, I would like to refer to a previous statement I made:

For those that say that the plane would not take off, do you realize that you are saying that a plane is driven via it's wheels?

Do you realize that that is what you are saying, MasonLuke?

No one is saying a plane is driving by it wheels.

The question is if the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill surface (ie speed the wheels see) -- Plane doesn't take off OR the treadmill matches the ground speed of the plane -- Plane takes off.

You are correct and incorrect at the same time, let me explain...

You said that

"The question is if the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill surface (ie speed the wheels see) -- Plane doesn't take off"

The statement you made is correct, the treadmill would match the planes speed relative to the treadmill. The conclusion you came to is incorrect, however; the plane would take off. The treadmill would be matching the planes forward speed by spinning in the opposite direction of the plane at an equal speed. So if the plane is going forward at 100mph, the treadmill would be going the opposite direction at 100mph, meaning the wheels on the plane would move at 200mph.

So, could you explain to me how the wheels would stop the plane (if you are of the belief that the plane would not take off, that is)?

Wow, please reread what you just wrote. Simply by definition of the problem that why forward movement is impossible. In your example you broke the condition requiring the treadmill to match the wheel speed by having the wheel go at 200 mph yet the treadmill is only running at 100 mph .

LOL

Sorry kids for calling you stupid, but hopefully you have learned something from all this.
You dont know not because you are stupid, but because you are ignorant. Remember, learning is half the battle.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

I don't get why we can't keep all the discussion in the same thread. It would be one of the largest threads then with something like 3000 posts =]

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: JujuFish

Originally posted by: smack Down
Wow, please reread what you just wrote. Simply by definition of the problem that why forward movement is impossible. In your example you broke the condition requiring the treadmill to match the wheel speed by having the wheel go at 200 mph yet the treadmill is only running at 100 mph .

Rotational velocity, yes. However, their respective linear velocities are equal and opposite.

Ugh they are only equal if you are talking about the ground speed and not the speed with respect to the treadmill surface.