Mythbusters to take on "the plane and the treadmill" conundrum?

[KK]

Why are people still debating this? Are you guys that damn stupid?

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Rob9874

Originally posted by: LS20

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
As explained a half-dozen times already, the plane does not remain stationary.

ZV

put a toy plane -- or toy car -- on a real treadmill. turn treadmill on. where does car go? belt brings car backwards

now place your finger on the rear bumper of the car (or plane). now there are opposing forces (car vs finger) just like plane scenario (thrust)... where does car go?

Now, use that finger to push the car forward (more thrust), where does the car go?

turn the nob on the treadmill to match the extra push from your finger and where does the car go?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Number1
Has anybody in the "it will not fly" camp read sao123's post? That would be a start to get a good understanding of the problem and it?s solution.
The speed of the plane is in relation to the ground. If the plane is not moving in relation to the ground, the treadmill is not moving. If the plane is moving at 25 MPH in relation to the ground, the treadmill is moving at 25 MPH in the opposite direction. The prop moves the plane trough the air. The treadmill rotates the wheels. The plane accelerates and takes off.

i read it and it still does not explain where the wind comes from to get that lift. if the plane is going 25mph west and the treadmill is going 25mph east the plane is not moving. sure the wheels are but the plane is staying in one spot.

Explain how the two bolded segments can be simultaneously true.

 

[Number1]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Number1
Has anybody in the "it will not fly" camp read sao123's post? That would be a start to get a good understanding of the problem and it?s solution.
The speed of the plane is in relation to the ground. If the plane is not moving in relation to the ground, the treadmill is not moving. If the plane is moving at 25 MPH in relation to the ground, the treadmill is moving at 25 MPH in the opposite direction. The prop moves the plane trough the air. The treadmill rotates the wheels. The plane accelerates and takes off.

i read it and it still does not explain where the wind comes from to get that lift. if the plane is going 25mph west and the treadmill is going 25mph east the plane is not moving. sure the wheels are but the plane is staying in one spot. how hard is that to understand???

How is the plane "not moving" if it's going 25 MPH?

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Rob9874

Originally posted by: LS20

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
As explained a half-dozen times already, the plane does not remain stationary.

ZV

put a toy plane -- or toy car -- on a real treadmill. turn treadmill on. where does car go? belt brings car backwards

now place your finger on the rear bumper of the car (or plane). now there are opposing forces (car vs finger) just like plane scenario (thrust)... where does car go?

Now, use that finger to push the car forward (more thrust), where does the car go?

turn the nob on the treadmill to match the extra push from your finger and where does the car go?

Forward.

 

[DanTMWTMP]

Originally posted by: Rob9874

Originally posted by: LS20

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
As explained a half-dozen times already, the plane does not remain stationary.

ZV

put a toy plane -- or toy car -- on a real treadmill. turn treadmill on. where does car go? belt brings car backwards

now place your finger on the rear bumper of the car (or plane). now there are opposing forces (car vs finger) just like plane scenario (thrust)... where does car go?

Now, use that finger to push the car forward (more thrust), where does the car go?

ya, well, the finger is now a different force like the air, or string, etc... so ya, it'll move foward. same concept. sucks that others cannot realize this.

the lack of knowledge in some people here, especially in a forum full of supposedly educated geeks, is startling and sad. I'm just a bit happy that the majority already know the obvious: plane takes off.

 

[AbsolutDealage]

Originally posted by: smack Down
How about we stick to the case at hand. If you wish to expand on your hover craft or what ever so that it makes sence go for it. But I think there are already way to many other bad comparisions in this thread.

How about no. It is a perfectly valid question, and very accurately points out exactly what is wrong with your thinking process.

But that's alright, just go ahead and keep digging that hole of yours.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Rob9874

Originally posted by: LS20

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
As explained a half-dozen times already, the plane does not remain stationary.

ZV

put a toy plane -- or toy car -- on a real treadmill. turn treadmill on. where does car go? belt brings car backwards

now place your finger on the rear bumper of the car (or plane). now there are opposing forces (car vs finger) just like plane scenario (thrust)... where does car go?

Now, use that finger to push the car forward (more thrust), where does the car go?

turn the nob on the treadmill to match the extra push from your finger and where does the car go?

Forward.

wrong, it flys up!

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Number1
Has anybody in the "it will not fly" camp read sao123's post? That would be a start to get a good understanding of the problem and it?s solution.
The speed of the plane is in relation to the ground. If the plane is not moving in relation to the ground, the treadmill is not moving. If the plane is moving at 25 MPH in relation to the ground, the treadmill is moving at 25 MPH in the opposite direction. The prop moves the plane trough the air. The treadmill rotates the wheels. The plane accelerates and takes off.

i read it and it still does not explain where the wind comes from to get that lift. if the plane is going 25mph west and the treadmill is going 25mph east the plane is not moving. sure the wheels are but the plane is staying in one spot. how hard is that to understand???

LOL just ... LOL

Stick a toy plane on a treadmill and tie a piece of string to the front of it with a spring scale on the other end. Now pull only the scale/string with a constant force of so many pounds, but as the wheels starting spinning forward, keep cranking up the treadmill speed to match, but keep the pulling force constant on the scale.

The plane will continue going forward at a constant speed due to the constant force on the string, even though the wheels may continue to spin faster and faster with the treadmill running. Note that the applied thrust force on the string as measured by the scale results in the same forward velocity regardless of the reverse speed of the treadmill.

There will be some fixed drag due to friction of the wheels and axle assembly, esp. if you used a cheap toy with a bent axle, etc. The wheels could even be locked up completely, but even still you can easily apply more than enough external force with your hand and yank the toy right off the treadmill if you wanted to right?

What is so hard to understand? The plane takes off as it normally would at the same speed and same length runway.

If there is any reason for the plane to not take off it's because the maximum wheel speed could be exceeded causing the gear systems to fail before lift velocity could be reached. The plane wouldn't be able to take off if it wasn't level, steady, and balanced, because exploding tires or gear support struts and hydraulics dragging and tearing into the runway. While 100,000 lbs of thrust in a typical commercial jet engine could easily plow through the tarmac and still take off, such drag is likely to rip apart the fuselage or impart yaw on the vertical axis of the plane, cause it to tumble, etc. These are about the only reasons it wouldn't take off due to the treadmill.

 

[Rob9874]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Rob9874

Originally posted by: LS20

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
As explained a half-dozen times already, the plane does not remain stationary.

ZV

put a toy plane -- or toy car -- on a real treadmill. turn treadmill on. where does car go? belt brings car backwards

now place your finger on the rear bumper of the car (or plane). now there are opposing forces (car vs finger) just like plane scenario (thrust)... where does car go?

Now, use that finger to push the car forward (more thrust), where does the car go?

turn the nob on the treadmill to match the extra push from your finger and where does the car go?

Forward.

Exactly! Set the treadmill to run at 100 mph, and I guarantee I can push the car forward. The wheels will spin like crazy, but I can push it forward.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: smack Down

How about we stick to the case at hand. If you wish to expand on your hover craft or what ever so that it makes sence go for it. But I think there are already way to many other bad comparisions in this thread.

Translation: I don't want to confront a perfectly valid counterexample to my inane argument so that I can continue trolling.

 

[JujuFish]

Originally posted by: KK
Why are people still debating this? Are you guys that damn stupid?

I'm beginning to think yes. At first, it seems like trolling. However, it now seems like pure idiocy.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Number1
Has anybody in the "it will not fly" camp read sao123's post? That would be a start to get a good understanding of the problem and it?s solution.
The speed of the plane is in relation to the ground. If the plane is not moving in relation to the ground, the treadmill is not moving. If the plane is moving at 25 MPH in relation to the ground, the treadmill is moving at 25 MPH in the opposite direction. The prop moves the plane trough the air. The treadmill rotates the wheels. The plane accelerates and takes off.

i read it and it still does not explain where the wind comes from to get that lift. if the plane is going 25mph west and the treadmill is going 25mph east the plane is not moving. sure the wheels are but the plane is staying in one spot.

Explain how the two bolded segments can be simultaneously true.

because the treadmill is negating that forward movement.

go run on a treadmill and the treadmill has a sensor that changes the speed of the treadmill if you move forward of the dead center of the belt. if you all of a sudden sprint and move forward the belt goes faster to push you back, you are stationary to the ground. now bolt on some wings to your shoulder will you fly?

No.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Number1
Has anybody in the "it will not fly" camp read sao123's post? That would be a start to get a good understanding of the problem and it?s solution.
The speed of the plane is in relation to the ground. If the plane is not moving in relation to the ground, the treadmill is not moving. If the plane is moving at 25 MPH in relation to the ground, the treadmill is moving at 25 MPH in the opposite direction. The prop moves the plane trough the air. The treadmill rotates the wheels. The plane accelerates and takes off.

i read it and it still does not explain where the wind comes from to get that lift. if the plane is going 25mph west and the treadmill is going 25mph east the plane is not moving. sure the wheels are but the plane is staying in one spot. how hard is that to understand???

The treadmill is going 0 MPH as it is stationary in relation to both the ground and the atmosphere. The belt itself may be going 25MPH and the wheels on the plane are also going 25MPH but the plane itself is going 0 MPH in relation to the ground and the atmosphere. Pitch the props to provide thrust and the plane will begin to move forward. The link I provided back on the first or second page goes into great detail on how a propeller works.

 

[Rob9874]

It's hard to stop posting. Kind of answers my previous post today about why atheists continue to argue against God.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Number1
Has anybody in the "it will not fly" camp read sao123's post? That would be a start to get a good understanding of the problem and it?s solution.
The speed of the plane is in relation to the ground. If the plane is not moving in relation to the ground, the treadmill is not moving. If the plane is moving at 25 MPH in relation to the ground, the treadmill is moving at 25 MPH in the opposite direction. The prop moves the plane trough the air. The treadmill rotates the wheels. The plane accelerates and takes off.

i read it and it still does not explain where the wind comes from to get that lift. if the plane is going 25mph west and the treadmill is going 25mph east the plane is not moving. sure the wheels are but the plane is staying in one spot.

Explain how the two bolded segments can be simultaneously true.

because the treadmill is negating that forward movement.

So is the plane going 25mph, or 0 mph, or both?

go run on a treadmill and the treadmill has a sensor that changes the speed of the treadmill if you move forward of the dead center of the belt. if you all of a sudden sprint and move forward the belt goes faster to push you back, you are stationary to the ground. now bolt on some wings to your shoulder will you fly?

Since when do planes accelerate by pushing on the ground the way that people and cars do?

 

[JujuFish]

Originally posted by: Citrix
because the treadmill is negating that forward movement.

go run on a treadmill and the treadmill has a sensor that changes the speed of the treadmill if you move forward of the dead center of the belt. if you all of a sudden sprint and move forward the belt goes faster to push you back, you are stationary to the ground. now bolt on some wings to your shoulder will you fly?

No.

Of course you won't fly. But, you don't work like airplanes do, genius. We humans move forward by pushing off the ground. Planes move forward by pushing off of air. Big difference.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Number1
Has anybody in the "it will not fly" camp read sao123's post? That would be a start to get a good understanding of the problem and it?s solution.
The speed of the plane is in relation to the ground. If the plane is not moving in relation to the ground, the treadmill is not moving. If the plane is moving at 25 MPH in relation to the ground, the treadmill is moving at 25 MPH in the opposite direction. The prop moves the plane trough the air. The treadmill rotates the wheels. The plane accelerates and takes off.

i read it and it still does not explain where the wind comes from to get that lift. if the plane is going 25mph west and the treadmill is going 25mph east the plane is not moving. sure the wheels are but the plane is staying in one spot. how hard is that to understand???

LOL just ... LOL

Stick a toy plane on a treadmill and tie a piece of string to the front of it. Now pull the string with a constant force, but as the wheels starting spinning, keep cranking up the treadmill speed to match.

The plane will continue going forward at a constant speed due to the constant force on the string, even though the wheels may be spinning faster than normal with the treadmill running.

What is so hard to understand?

yes but the plane is not moving to its position to the ground, there is no air movement over the wings and no lift.

what is so hard about that to understand?

 

[LS20]

what if the airplane is a swallow, and is unladen?

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: LS20
what if the airplane is a swallow, and is unladen?

Shot down for dinner long before it'll ever have a chance to try to fly.

 

[Rob9874]

It's like asking, "What if there were wheels on the top of the plane, and some kids were up there spinning them in the opposite direction than the plane is moving, would it move?" Of course it would! Why does the speed of the wheels spinning have anything to do with the plane moving? The wheels are free spinning, and are not attached to any drive train that thrusts the plane forward. They can spin backwards at infinite speed, and the plane can still move forward.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: LS20
what if the airplane is a swallow, and is unladen?

African or European?

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Number1
Has anybody in the "it will not fly" camp read sao123's post? That would be a start to get a good understanding of the problem and it?s solution.
The speed of the plane is in relation to the ground. If the plane is not moving in relation to the ground, the treadmill is not moving. If the plane is moving at 25 MPH in relation to the ground, the treadmill is moving at 25 MPH in the opposite direction. The prop moves the plane trough the air. The treadmill rotates the wheels. The plane accelerates and takes off.

i read it and it still does not explain where the wind comes from to get that lift. if the plane is going 25mph west and the treadmill is going 25mph east the plane is not moving. sure the wheels are but the plane is staying in one spot. how hard is that to understand???

The treadmill is going 0 MPH as it is stationary in relation to both the ground and the atmosphere. The belt itself may be going 25MPH and the wheels on the plane are also going 25MPH but the plane itself is going 0 MPH in relation to the ground and the atmosphere. Pitch the props to provide thrust and the plane will begin to move forward. The link I provided back on the first or second page goes into great detail on how a propeller works.

and what happens when you throddle up and the treadmill also throddles up? you stay in the same spot.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Number1
Has anybody in the "it will not fly" camp read sao123's post? That would be a start to get a good understanding of the problem and it?s solution.
The speed of the plane is in relation to the ground. If the plane is not moving in relation to the ground, the treadmill is not moving. If the plane is moving at 25 MPH in relation to the ground, the treadmill is moving at 25 MPH in the opposite direction. The prop moves the plane trough the air. The treadmill rotates the wheels. The plane accelerates and takes off.

i read it and it still does not explain where the wind comes from to get that lift. if the plane is going 25mph west and the treadmill is going 25mph east the plane is not moving. sure the wheels are but the plane is staying in one spot. how hard is that to understand???

The treadmill is going 0 MPH as it is stationary in relation to both the ground and the atmosphere. The belt itself may be going 25MPH and the wheels on the plane are also going 25MPH but the plane itself is going 0 MPH in relation to the ground and the atmosphere. Pitch the props to provide thrust and the plane will begin to move forward. The link I provided back on the first or second page goes into great detail on how a propeller works.

and what happens when you throddle up and the treadmill also throddles up? you stay in the same spot.

No, the plane moves, and the wheels turn even faster than if the ground were stationary.

 

[randay]

Here are the only two possible answers for the question.

1.(a.k.a. the most sane and logical answer) The airplane takes off with the wheels spinning at twice the normal take off speed.

2.(the only possible condition in which the 'retarded' interpretation of the question is correct) Its a trick question, the only time the treadmill can match the airplanes speed is at ZERO. The airplane and treadmill don't move at all. Therefore, the plane doesnt take off.

BTW, this is only for people who are actually curious as to what the answer is and not for people who are trolling, if you are the latter, dont bother replying to this post, I wont debate it with you.