My thought on Windows 8: Lacks polish and integration

[cmdrdredd]

Funny you mention Android, now most Android phones are like full blown desktops with folders, backgrounds etc. Except you have widgets.

 

[pmv]

@augiem

What you say makes a lot of sense. I can imagine various things being added back into Win8 gradually (or maybe just with win9?). Which is irksome as it means maybe it _is_ worth going for 8 now and gambling the most annoying bits get fixed with SPs. Or maybe they won't...grrr.

Incidentally, just thought of a problem with the idea of putting a start menu folder on the desktop - I think it won't properly handle shortcuts that are installed for individual users vs all users, as those actually go in different folders (at least it doesn't work on XP, does it work differently on later iterations?)

 

[cmdrdredd]

the users desktop is unique to each user. It goes like so...

C: \Users\<user name>Desktop

There is a public desktop which you may add folders or shortcuts to if you wish and when you install apps through the desktop it asks you if you want to install for this user or all users. It is hidden by default but that's easy to change as well.

 

[augiem]

Funny you mention Android, now most Android phones are like full blown desktops with folders, backgrounds etc. Except you have widgets.

Not exactly. Android excludes an integrated file management interface. It also has limited system administration/setting capabilities. And as of ICS, STILL lacks a way to organize your app drawer. (Giant grab bag design philosophy.)

 

[Mem]

I use phrases like "I personally do not believe computers should be that simplified." when I am talking about my personal taste and usage patterns. But the vast majority of my posts are talking about the "casual user", not my own personal usage. I am a game programmer, web/software desginer, 3D animator, video editor, and artist. I know for a fact my comfort level with technology and my needs from an OS aren't those of the average user. My issues with the _complication_ of the Metro/Desktop duality are not from my own personal perspective for what I want/need. I'm looking at it from a designer's point of view who is designing for the needs of a particular audience, the casual user. My personal issues with Metro with regards to my own needs are all related to functionality, flexibility, and efficiency, not complication.

Every chance I have, I watch people try Windows 8 for the first time without tutoring to see how they interact with it. I just did it yesterday when I went to Best Buy with my sister (31 y/o). She tried a touchscreen laptop, and was clueless and lost and couldn't get out of IE for at least 5 minutes straight. then took her over to an iPad which she hasn't used before either, though she does have an older Android smartphone, and she was able to navigate it after only about 20 seconds of figuring out the home button went back to the main screen. That's intuitive and meets the basic needs of the general public for the tablet/phone usage model.



True. The difference here is MS is asking people to learn not 1 but 2 interfaces and sets of conventions. Metro isn't capable of replacing Desktop for desktop/notebook usage models as even MS makes clear by their inclusion of Desktop Microsoft Office on all Windows RT tablets.



Of course they won't drop it. Windows is Microsoft's product for the masses, but Metro needs massive improvement to make it intuitive and cohesive. Metro was 1-2 years premature in its development in my opinion. They're going to have to backtrack on many of their naieve design decisions to make improvements, which will essentially amount to adding visual elements and conventions back into it that they took out for no good reason. Example I gave in another post: the Windows Store and its ludicrous lack of a primary navigation so they can preserve negative space. And graphical elements will be added back here and there instead of making users rely on invisible elements and hotkey-like conventions. Plus I also believe they will have to add small but significant differences to the UI based on the target platform because designing for the tablet as the lowest common denominator seriously wastes the potential of the desktop interface.

I've seen this happen before. An example, iOS came out with no apps. They added apps. Everyone applauded them for the simplicity. I saw it and immediately said they are going to HAVE to add folders. It was plain as day what would happen. As people downloaded hundreds of apps, the desktop became a gigantic mess. It took them until iOS 4 or something, but they eventually did add folders just like I said because they made the naieve design decision to exclude any sort of organizational system because they assumed users would only download a limited number of apps.

Android was similar. It was a severely stripped down version of the common GUI. Everyone thought this was the new wave. Fast forward 4 years and each and every version of Android has added back tried and true interaction elements that were naievely tossed out in the beginning.

I believe Metro MUST go through a similar renaissance.

I hate apple software much prefer my Android tablet to any Apple products,as to Win8 its not hard to learn and once you know how it works its simple enough,nowadays plenty of youtube and online tutorials even for the clueless,back in my Dos 6.22 days had to learn the hard way lol did not even have net use back then ,if they can't be bothered to learn and spend time than that's their problem.

I also think by the time Win9 arrives most users will be very Win8 savvy and probably find learning curve on Win9 easier due to Win8.


Hybrid OS is the way Microsoft is going for now and the future joining desktop,tablet and phone users together,I don't think you going to see pure desktop OS by Microsoft ever again for the general public ,like or it hate that's the way it is.


One thing is for sure Win9 should be pretty interesting

 

[cmdrdredd]

Not exactly. Android excludes an integrated file management interface. It also has limited system administration/setting capabilities. And as of ICS, STILL lacks a way to organize your app drawer. (Giant grab bag design philosophy.)

That's why you root and can do quite a few tweaks that you can't do stock.

 

[augiem]

Incidentally, just thought of a problem with the idea of putting a start menu folder on the desktop - I think it won't properly handle shortcuts that are installed for individual users vs all users, as those actually go in different folders (at least it doesn't work on XP, does it work differently on later iterations?)

Individual user start menus are store in the local user account. So something like C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu

The shared start menu for all users is in C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs or similar (I'm checking in Vista right now, but Win8 is similar.)

So yeah, you'd have to make a shortcut for each user for their own start menu entries. And then you'd have a 2nd folder link for accessing the apps installed system-wide.

 

[augiem]

That's why you root and can do quite a few tweaks that you can't do stock.

Sure. Once you root you can do whatever you like. I use a different launcher that suits my needs.

 

[augiem]

back in my Dos 6.22 days had to learn the hard way lol did not even have net use back then ,if they can't be bothered to learn and spend time than that's their problem.

Dos 6.22 was never targeted at the general public. The vast majority of homes didn't even have computers in 1994. It was far too complicated for the majority of the general public who use computers these days. They wouldn't have even bothered (and didn't).

I don't think you going to see pure desktop OS by Microsoft ever again for the general public

I don't think so either. That's why I keep saying a branching may be in order, especially as in the future they want to move even further and further toward a model designed almost exclusively for casual use. For me personally, I don't fall into the "general public" usage category, so I would welcome another option even if it costs more. 95 vs NT.

like or it hate that's the way it is.

I'm not sure what the point of this statement is. Does that make observations and opinion about the current state of things suddenly invalid? One would be a fool to think that posting opinions about the current and future trends would actually change anything. It's just talk.

One thing is for sure Win9 should be pretty interesting

Agreed.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Windows 8 is a great desktop OS. Forget metro, that isn't really the whole OS. That's the problem that I see many people cling to. Metro is but a part, one which you don't even need to use nor see.

 

[Blueychan]

Windows 8 is a great desktop OS. Forget metro, that isn't really the whole OS. That's the problem that I see many people cling to. Metro is but a part, one which you don't even need to use nor see.

I agree ... most people just jump the "Windows 8 hate bandwagons" without going into the details of what Windows 8 brings. Usually when you ask them why they hate windows, it's always "Metro sucks". Well Metro is like less than 5% of the OS.

 

[Mem]

Dos 6.22 was never targeted at the general public. The vast majority of homes didn't even have computers in 1994. It was far too complicated for the majority of the general public who use computers these days. They wouldn't have even bothered (and didn't).



I don't think so either. That's why I keep saying a branching may be in order, especially as in the future they want to move even further and further toward a model designed almost exclusively for casual use. For me personally, I don't fall into the "general public" usage category, so I would welcome another option even if it costs more. 95 vs NT.



I'm not sure what the point of this statement is. Does that make observations and opinion about the current state of things suddenly invalid? One would be a fool to think that posting opinions about the current and future trends would actually change anything. It's just talk.



Agreed.

My point is in the very old days learning curve was much higher then it is now,you have so much access nowadays to free information etc.. and nowadays computers are a very common place.

"Love it or hate it " statement is just the way it is,we the user(I obviously include myself) don't get much say with what Microsoft is doing or the way technology is changing and involving which also brings on changes in operating systems etc....we have to adapt period and as always we will always see things we like and hate.

 

[HeXen]

Sure. Once you root you can do whatever you like. I use a different launcher that suits my needs.

I jailbroke my ipad first gen recently. After browsing the list in Cydia, I didn't see the point, bunch of generic looking games, some tweak apps that seem more suited to a laptop than a tablet, all of which that I seem to have no use for. I tried a simple NES emulator and some Roms, played ok however the sound cut out.
I don't think most people need file managers and the sort. I certainly never did. if you have to tweak a tablet, then that's probably not the kind of device you need imo.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I disagree, being ablebto maje my tablet mine is what I like about it.

 

[HeXen]

I disagree, being ablebto maje my tablet mine is what I like about it.

what do you mean yours? Only thing I want to do on such a device is launch some apps... consume the media, it's still mine.
I don't need to dress it up like a Barbie doll or nothing to make me feel like its my fashion statement or whatever it is that sparkling a tablet up in glitter makes one feel like. Whatever floats your boat though.

 

[cmdrdredd]

what do you mean yours? Only thing I want to do on such a device is launch some apps... consume the media, it's still mine.
I don't need to dress it up like a Barbie doll or nothing to make me feel like its my fashion statement or whatever it is that sparkling a tablet up in glitter makes one feel like. Whatever floats your boat though.

Every iPad looks the same, every iPhone looks the same. Walls of icons with occational folders. With widgets and all kinds of UI changers and launcher options my GS3 is different than my friend's GS3 and my TF700 is different than my friend's Galaxy Tab 10.1.

I like editing these things so that I have a unique and interesting experience that isn't boring and the same as everyone else.

 

[pmv]

I agree ... most people just jump the "Windows 8 hate bandwagons" without going into the details of what Windows 8 brings. Usually when you ask them why they hate windows, it's always "Metro sucks". Well Metro is like less than 5% of the OS.

I think its patroninsing/glib of you to assume anyone who finds they dislike Win8 is merely 'jumping a bandwagon'. Most people seem to have come to dislike it after purchasing it and using it.

I haven't used win8 - haven't even used win 7 or Vista!

But yes, Metro is only a part of Win8 (not sure how you calculate percentages - proportion of code? For some it will be their primary GUI experience with the desktop being an obscure side-feature, while for others it will be the reverse).

But the trouble is MS seem, in their eagerness to forcibly 'integrate' the two radically different GUIs, to have made it very hard for desktop users to ignore Metro completely, as its clearly intended to function as some sort of substitute for the Start menu.

If they'd just left the traditional start menu on the desktop then, yes, it would be entirely possible to totally ignore Metro if you wanted to. It would be two GUIs on one O/S and you could just chose which to use. That would be fine by me.

But I guess MS specifically _doesn't_ want people to do that, they want to force everyone to get used to Metro (and, what to me seems to be a somewhat clunky, retro, un-nested, windows 3.11 way of doing things). I don't entirely understand why they are doing this, and its annoying because it means I have to chose between two alternatives (7 or 8), both of which lack something the other has.

 

[pmv]

Currently leaning towards getting 8 and one of those third-party start menus. Though still would miss the transparency effects. It would also mean forgiving MS their chasing of the tablet/touch dollar!

This decision is drving me crazy! Worse than choosing which HAF case to get!

 

[cmdrdredd]

Currently leaning towards getting 8 and one of those third-party start menus. Though still would miss the transparency effects. It would also mean forgiving MS their chasing of the tablet/touch dollar!

This decision is drving me crazy! Worse than choosing which HAF case to get!

HAF-X

My favorite thing about windows 8 is I can login to my live profile and when I get a Surface Pro or other Windows 8 Pro tablet, I can get all my settings synced back. I like tablets and really like the Surface after having played with an RT version today. I just need the Pro so I can do more stuff. The IE in Metro doesn't support plugins for example.

 

[Yongsta]

After using Windows 8, I think it's just ok. Not much of an upgrade over 7 and the metro feature is a bit gimmicky. Kind of funny how I had to download tools / programs (start8) to make it feel more like Windows 7 to find it usable (so why upgrade? I guess the slight increase in speed here & there). Kind of miss the old days when you could download powertools / TweakUI and play around with stuff.

 

[zephxiii]

One thing I've noticed is that the mouse cursor isnt auto hiding when I watch videos in tablet mode.