My thought on Windows 8: Lacks polish and integration

[C1]

This issue about W8 is quite discussed on Leo LaPorte radio talk show. Right now, if you only try to use W8 with a mouse, then most likely one will be disappointed (maybe even frustrated). W8 now works best using a combination of mouse and touch. How the future unfolds for desktop, remains to be experienced.

 

[augiem]

Why do you insinuate I even meant you? Other people read the forum too.

That's generally how you read a message when it's replied to you and contains quotes from you.

I do agree that most discussion about Windows 8 degenerates into that kind of Nintendo vs Sega debate (did I just date myself?). That's why I usually just keep quiet.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Poor, poor Sega...

 

[HeXen]

Why do you insinuate I even meant you? Other people read the forum too.

you quoted him, then posted. Likely the reason why.

 

[Mem]

In many ways, Windows 8 is giving me the same feeling I got from Vista. I'm sure the underlying code is fine, but the UI needs a lot of fine tuning. There's just this big disconnect between the desktop and Metro interfaces, and it doesn't flow well.

To make things worse, parts of the desktop configuration have been removed for no real reason. An example of this is that desktop applications have massively think borders. In Windows 7 it's easy enough to configure elements of the window decorations. The dialog box for these modifications seems to have been removed. The code to make the modifications is still there (since I could make the change in the registry), they've just hidden the window. Why did they remove it?

Windows 7 is what Vista should have been. I guess we need to wait for Windows 9 to see what Windows 8 was supposed to be.

I disagree,Metro part was really made for touch and tablet users IMHO,desktop wise its not hard to put shortcuts etc..in taskbar,I have made a fresh column in Metro for my games and put a "Games" heading above the column which is in alphabetical order.

You have to realize there was some compromises made in Win8 especially since its trying to be desktop/tablet touch user.

I find its quite polished for a new OS and sure they might improve Metro in Win9 and fine tune the layout etc ,however it does not take away Win8 is very stable,fast and polished for a new OS with new layout design etc...


I'm finding my way around Win8 now very well even without installing any start button mods ,end of the day Win8 is a change so does have a bit of a new learning curve.

I've installed or should I say upgraded to Win8 Pro three times on different computers I own,each one is working well and more I use Win8 more I'm getting use to it.
My first Microsoft OS was DOS 6.22 (those were the days)and I can tell you Win8 is a piece of cake to use and learn compared to those old days.


I should say I'm desktop and gamer user in Win8.

 

[blurredvision]

Imagine you're not a savvy computer user... or better yet. Ask a friend who doesn't know much about computers (or a parent) to sit down and try using it with no tutoring at all. I have done this. It's pretty funny and sad.

I've seen this type of statement a lot from people against W8, but I don't understand why it's so wrong that somebody have to spend a little time to learn. It doesn't take long and honestly, if you were to show your friend or family member a couple of key points (hot corners, how to close a metro app, charms bar), they'd figure the rest of it out on their own in due time.

Once upon a time, all of your favorite operating systems were new and you had to learn. Metro is dumb easy. I'm sure if you put me in something like a Bobcat, which I've never driven before, I'd look pretty funny trying to figure it out and you'd laugh at me. But after 15-20 minutes, I'd be operating it with ease and be well on my way to getting extremely comfortable with it.

 

[Mem]

Originally Posted by augiem
Imagine you're not a savvy computer user... or better yet. Ask a friend who doesn't know much about computers (or a parent) to sit down and try using it with no tutoring at all. I have done this. It's pretty funny and sad.

You know I was 29/30 when I got my first IBM PC with DOS 6.22 ,now if I can figure that out ,you know average dad can figure out Win8,infact my friend's dad installed Win8 two days ago,I chatted to him today about his dad and he said his dad is quite happy using Win8 PC for his personal use.


When I was at school we did not have computers or video recorders etc... infact pocket calculators were very new.

 

[augiem]

I've seen this type of statement a lot from people against W8, but I don't understand why it's so wrong that somebody have to spend a little time to learn.

Of course there's nothing wrong with having to learn a new way of doing things, especially if it is significantly easier/faster/more efficient/more intuitive, etc. But my point is, its not very intuitive on the surface, especially when you ask users to use 1/2 the OS one way and the other half another way.

You know I was 29/30 when I got my first IBM PC with DOS 6.22 ,now if I can figure that out ,you know average dad can figure out Win8,infact my friend's dad installed Win8 two days ago,I chatted to him today about his dad and he said his dad is quite happy using Win8 PC for his personal use

I probably neglected to mention my dad is 69. I'm sure some people will be fine with it, as you have mentioned, as long as they're willing to learn. I personally don't think computers need to be simplified down to the point they become like iOS, but it seems to me on the surface they were trying to go for that market, and many of them may have a problem with it and will be confused by the dual-nature. (If they were the type of people who could never set the VCR by themselves back in the day, I think it's likely they'll have a problem with it.)

 

[zephxiii]

Sadly I think the Metro UI is simplified beyond iOS...it's too simple....which is one of the reasons why i hated windows phone.

Also the metro app experience so far has been subpar. It looks like shit, and i feel like i've downgraded my laptop whenever i use anything in it. And I really hate scrolling to the right when reading long articles....

 

[augiem]

Sadly I think the Metro UI is simplified beyond iOS...it's too simple....which is one of the reasons why i hated windows phone.

I can see how you say this if speaking from a visual design point of view (minimalist, lots of negative space), but I don't see how it's simpler from a usage point of view. iOS consists of an app launcher and a settings page. That's it. Everything else on top of that is just apps. You've got 1 button to worry about.

Also the metro app experience so far has been subpar. It looks like shit, and i feel like i've downgraded my laptop whenever i use anything in it.

Now the app experience is another story and I do agree many of them are rather poorly thought out. Take the store for example. You have 21 categories with gigantic icons stretched across about 11 screens of space with no way to jump back and forth among categories. A simple position-locked navigation menu or tab row for quickly jumping to a category would have been a no-brainer and improved functionality bucket loads. I guarantee leaving this out was a conscious decision made for aesthetic purposes. Even on a phone with not much space, they could have had a pop-out navigation on the left side show up with the click of a small icon.

Even worse, you must know about the invisible "just type" searching system or use the charms bar. If you happen to know the name of the category you can type it, but it shows up in a list of apps and is not clear that its referring to the store categories. Adding insult to injury, once you go into a store category and are presented with a dizzying screen of 50+ tiles (depending on screen size), "just type" search no longer does anything at all. If you use the charms bar to bring up search, you can search, but it's not drawing the results from the current page of apps, instead drawing them from the global search database.

And I really hate scrolling to the right when reading long articles....

It is quite bad, especially on a 24" monitor. I've been saying for a while Windows 8 should have been renamed Microsoft Scrollbars.

 

[Mem]

I probably neglected to mention my dad is 69. I'm sure some people will be fine with it, as you have mentioned, as long as they're willing to learn. I personally don't think computers need to be simplified down to the point they become like iOS, but it seems to me on the surface they were trying to go for that market, and many of them may have a problem with it and will be confused by the dual-nature. (If they were the type of people who could never set the VCR by themselves back in the day, I think it's likely they'll have a problem with it.)

Problem is nowadays the average user wants things easy and simplified,remember the old days when a lot of home users ie parents did not know how to operate a VCR etc...this is the way things are going for better or worst.


You have to remember making things simple is a selling feature, average person won't buy something if its complicated or beyond their means.
Microsoft and many other companies are trying to make it easy for them.

 

[HeXen]

Problem is nowadays the average user wants things easy and simplified,remember the old days when a lot of home users ie parents did not know how to operate a VCR etc...this is the way things are going for better or worst.


You have to remember making things simple is a selling feature, average person won't buy something if its complicated or beyond their means.
Microsoft and many other companies are trying to make it easy for them.

some just like to spend more time tweaking than they do actually using applications. Problem is, they never stop tweaking, are rarely satisfied for long. Too many options can lead to stability issues, sometimes.
Linux is so tweakable, you can screw up an install bigtime just by installing wrong package or a commandline you shouldn't do.

 

[cmdrdredd]

some just like to spend more time tweaking than they do actually using applications. Problem is, they never stop tweaking, are rarely satisfied for long. Too many options can lead to stability issues, sometimes.
Linux is so tweakable, you can screw up an install bigtime just by installing wrong package or a commandline you shouldn't do.

This is why Android bugs me. So much stuff... custom kernel, roms, launchers, UI edits. I decided to give up cause I was doing a restore every 2 hours at one point to go back how it was.

As for Windows 8 it's customizable but it's a bit basic in what it allows right now. So you can only do so much before you see it all and start working.

 

[augiem]

You have to remember making things simple is a selling feature, average person won't buy something if its complicated or beyond their means.
Microsoft and many other companies are trying to make it easy for them.

You just made the same point I did in my first post above. People want it simple. If they were going for the casual user market, I believe they didn't do anywhere nearly as good a job at making it easy like Apple did for that target audience. While I personally don't think it needs to be that easy because you sacrifice a lot of flexibility, many users want it that way as does the market as a whole, and that's why I feel Microsoft failed if they were going for that target market. It's just not anywhere close to as easy as iOS, and I also believe it's not even as easy as Windows 95/XP/Vista/7 for common usage patterns UNLESS you're talking about phone/tablet usage patterns. The one major thing that is significantly easier for the casual user is adding software through the Windows Store vs buying a disc or downloading software from the web.

 

[augiem]

some just like to spend more time tweaking than they do actually using applications. Problem is, they never stop tweaking, are rarely satisfied for long. Too many options can lead to stability issues, sometimes.
Linux is so tweakable, you can screw up an install bigtime just by installing wrong package or a commandline you shouldn't do.

I guess this is a bit off topic but...

It really depends on the needs of the user. When you're talking about basic users, yes, of course too much control can be a bad thing. "Oh shoot! What did I do? Time for a tech support call..." So a much more tightly controlled, closed platform is better for that market. (Apple) If the trends continue, this model will be the predominant model before too long. But that model doesn't fit the needs of all users, so to be moving more and more towards that kind of environment universally doesn't make sense. It makes sense from a business standpoint because you normally want to cater to the largest market, but not from a usage and functionality standpoint for that segment of the market that needs these things. One size does not fit all.

This doesn't directly pertain to Windows 8 (which is why I'm saying its a bit off topic). Windows 8 doesn certainly allow you to customize things. (Except Microsoft purposely fight efforts to make the Desktop launch on startup, which sends a message.) But the trends look pretty clear where things are heading in the future. More cloud, more automation, more walled gardens, direct distribution of software, more control, simpler usage models.

 

[HeXen]

So a much more tightly controlled, closed platform is better for that market. (Apple) If the trends continue, this model will be the predominant model before too long. But that model doesn't fit the needs of all users,

Vice Versa.
open control...does not fit the needs of all users. As you said, the "closed" platform" which all Windows OS's are... is the new trend, its what the mass wants obviously and having full control model doesn't fit the needs of all users. (most apparently)

So it seems to work both ways.

 

[augiem]

Vice Versa.
open control...does not fit the needs of all users. As you said, the "closed" platform" which all Windows OS's are... is the new trend, its what the mass wants obviously and having full control model doesn't fit the needs of all users. (most apparently)

So it seems to work both ways.

Exactly what I said. One size does not fit all. The trends show companies think it should and they're moving toward that now and have been for a while.

Of course, in the beginning there were nothing but completely user-unfriendly computers. More features were added year by year. As the general public began to use computers more and more for a limited number of tasks, the trend of simplification began. We're still in the midst of that trend. It just depends on how far they go with the simplification whether this will be a problem for those that need more.

 

[Mem]

You just made the same point I did in my first post above. People want it simple. If they were going for the casual user market, I believe they didn't do anywhere nearly as good a job at making it easy like Apple did for that target audience. While I personally don't think it needs to be that easy because you sacrifice a lot of flexibility, many users want it that way as does the market as a whole, and that's why I feel Microsoft failed if they were going for that target market. It's just not anywhere close to as easy as iOS, and I also believe it's not even as easy as Windows 95/XP/Vista/7 for common usage patterns UNLESS you're talking about phone/tablet usage patterns. The one major thing that is significantly easier for the casual user is adding software through the Windows Store vs buying a disc or downloading software from the web.

I disagree about it being not as easy as Win XP,Vista,7 etc..personally seems just as easy to me,if you want flexibility then you will have to look at a more open format IMHO like Linux Distros,end of the day Microsoft can do what they want with regards to flexibility and they have to look at the bigger picture and what the average PC user wants and can handle.

 

[augiem]

end of the day Microsoft can do what they want with regards to flexibility and they have to look at the bigger picture and what the average PC user wants and can handle.

Or they could branch their OS into Pro and Home as they did back in the days of NT and serve the needs of everyone. It would be very difficult to for many reasons, but it could be done and it would probably serve the needs of both markets better if the trends continue. Like I said, one size doesn't fit all, nor should it. There doesn't always have to be just one market for everything.

 

[PokerGuy]

Overall Win 8 brings some nice new things and you can tell that it is stable, but IMO MS failed big time with Win 8. Having a cludge dual desktop/metro setup that isn't integrated and doesn't flow readily back and forth is a terrible setup. Nothing wrong with simple, but it has to be intuitive. Nothing wrong with making users learn a new way of doing things, but only if that new way of doing things is actually better than the old way. With win 8, a lot of the new way of doing things is actually a step back from what the users were able to do before, primarily because MS tried desperately to merge it into a tablet OS. Lousy compromise, Win 8 = fail.

 

[augiem]

I disagree about it being not as easy as Win XP,Vista,7 etc..personally seems just as easy to me

You have to learn 2 interfaces, not one. How is it possible for it to be just as easy when you have 2 completely different interfaces with different conventions? Yes, I know you like it and find it easy. But disagreeing with my statement "I also believe it's not even as easy as Windows 95/XP/Vista/7 for common usage patterns [desktop]" and saying it's "just as easy", or in other words, requires exactly the same amount of skill or knowledge required to use it, isn't true.

A typical desktop usage model would also include things like using MS Word, Quicken, or other basic productivity tools that also require a little bit of file system knowledge, not just content consumption through apps. From a phone/tablet usage model (content consumption), it's far easier, which I said, because you can avoid desktop and all the complexities of that alltogether. But in a typical desktop usage model, you do some of both, therefore you must know both interfaces, therefore it cannot be as easy. Easy enough for you, sure, but AS easy, I don't think so, especially for casual users.

The only way this would be the case is if all the productivity software moved to Metro and all the file handling was done in the cloud. In that situation, yes, it would be not only as easy but much easier for those users. But even Microsoft didn't go that far on Windows RT w/ bundled office.

 

[pmv]

You have to learn 2 interfaces, not one. How is it possible for it to be just as easy when you have 2 completely different interfaces with different conventions? Yes, I know you like it. But saying it's "just as easy", or in other words, requires exactly the same amount of skill or knowledge required to use it, isn't true.

Not that I'm particularly wishing to defend win8, but perhaps the counter argument would be that for most 'mainstream' users Metro is the only interface they will really need to learn, with the desktop being relegated to an esoteric special mode for old-timers, 'experts' and, er, beardy weirdos (a bit like a dos window in windows 9x perhaps?). I dunno, its not an idea I like at all, but maybe that's the logic? Old-skool desktop being the new DOSbox in MS's brave new world?

Yeah - emphasise its not an idea I like, more of a dark fear!

 

[Mem]

You have to learn 2 interfaces, not one. How is it possible for it to be just as easy when you have 2 completely different interfaces with different conventions? Yes, I know you like it. But saying it's "just as easy", or in other words, requires exactly the same amount of skill or knowledge required to use it, isn't true.

A typical desktop usage model would also include things like using MS Word, Quicken, or other basic productivity tools, not just content consumption. From a phone/tablet usage model (content consumption), it's easier, which I said, because you can avoid desktop alltogether. But in a typical desktop usage model, you do some of both, therefore you must know both interfaces.

You refer to the Metro part ,well to be honest its not hard and only took me couple of days to get Win8 to my liking in both Metro and Desktop part,I'm not a Metro fan as such but can except thats the way forward for Microsoft just like I did when they got rid of Dos 6.22(told you I was a Dos 6.22 back then).


You say in another post that Win8 is too simple and not flexible enough for you yet you say here its more complicated?..not sure what you mean but Metro part is easy to learn,lets be honest how hard is it to go from desktop to Metro,less then a second and only got to put your cursor in bottom left corner unless you want to use keyboard short cut keys.

Any new OS you have to relearn to a certain extent.

Win8 is a hybrid OS you have to except that its no longer just a desktop OS,if you can get around to thinking its a hybrid OS designed for both desktop and tablet users ,its the future and direction Microsoft is going,end of the day you still got Win7 or Linux to fall back on.

Let me ask you a question ,what do you think Microsoft will do with Win9 drop Metro or tablet part?...no you can bet they will keep them but work on improving it.

 

[augiem]

Not that I'm particularly wishing to defend win8, but perhaps the counter argument would be that for most 'mainstream' users Metro is the only interface they will really need to learn...

Yes, that's why I said "The only way this would be the case is if all the productivity software moved to Metro and all the file handling was done in the cloud." Currently that's not the case though as even MS released Office for Windows RT and it requires you use Desktop -- it's not a Metro app.

Yeah - emphasise its not an idea I like, more of a dark fear!

The trends seem to point to that future. That's why I hope at some point they realize they need to branch it. iOS or ChromeOS may be fine for the majority of users, but not for everyone.

 

[augiem]

You say in another post that Win8 is too simple and not flexible enough for you yet you say here its more completed?

I use phrases like "I personally do not believe computers should be that simplified." when I am talking about my personal taste and usage patterns. But the vast majority of my posts are talking about the "casual user", not my own personal usage. I am a game programmer, web/software desginer, 3D animator, video editor, and artist. I know for a fact my comfort level with technology and my needs from an OS aren't those of the average user. My issues with the _complication_ of the Metro/Desktop duality are not from my own personal perspective for what I want/need. I'm looking at it from a designer's point of view who is designing for the needs of a particular audience, the casual user. My personal issues with Metro with regards to my own needs are all related to functionality, flexibility, and efficiency, not complication.

Every chance I have, I watch people try Windows 8 for the first time without tutoring to see how they interact with it. I just did it yesterday when I went to Best Buy with my sister (31 y/o). She tried a touchscreen laptop, and was clueless and lost and couldn't get out of IE for at least 5 minutes straight. then took her over to an iPad which she hasn't used before either, though she does have an older Android smartphone, and she was able to navigate it after only about 20 seconds of figuring out the home button went back to the main screen. That's intuitive and meets the basic needs of the general public for the tablet/phone usage model.

Any new OS you have to relearn to a certain extent.

True. The difference here is MS is asking people to learn not 1 but 2 interfaces and sets of conventions. Metro isn't capable of replacing Desktop for desktop/notebook usage models as even MS makes clear by their inclusion of Desktop Microsoft Office on all Windows RT tablets.

Let me ask you a question ,what do you think Microsoft will do with Win9 drop Metro or tablet part?...no you can bet they will keep them but work on improving it.

Of course they won't drop it. Windows is Microsoft's product for the masses, but Metro needs massive improvement to make it intuitive and cohesive. Metro was 1-2 years premature in its development in my opinion. They're going to have to backtrack on many of their naieve design decisions to make improvements, which will essentially amount to adding visual elements and conventions back into it that they took out for no good reason. Example I gave in another post: the Windows Store and its ludicrous lack of a primary navigation so they can preserve negative space. And graphical elements will be added back here and there instead of making users rely on invisible elements and hotkey-like conventions. Plus I also believe they will have to add small but significant differences to the UI based on the target platform because designing for the tablet as the lowest common denominator seriously wastes the potential of the desktop interface.

I've seen this happen before. An example, iOS came out with no apps. They added apps. Everyone applauded them for the simplicity. I saw it and immediately said they are going to HAVE to add folders. It was plain as day what would happen. As people downloaded hundreds of apps, the desktop became a gigantic mess. It took them until iOS 4 or something, but they eventually did add folders just like I said because they made the naieve design decision to exclude any sort of organizational system because they assumed users would only download a limited number of apps.

Android was similar. It was a severely stripped down version of the common GUI. Everyone thought this was the new wave. Fast forward 4 years and each and every version of Android has added back tried and true interaction elements that were naievely tossed out in the beginning.

I believe Metro MUST go through a similar renaissance. They also need to seriously improve the cohesion between Desktop and Metro.(Just the two separate task switchers is a great example of the mess of duality that leads to a clunky workflow and confusion for the casual user.)