My solution to the broken American tax system

[gingermeggs]

Actually, I think the metaphor is backwards - the forest I'm not missing is the larger issue of the political corruption dominating any tax plan, while the trees are the plan.

My point was, that looking at your plan, I see you trying to preserve some of the benefits of the progressive system - with brackets - while address the problem of the abuse of tax credits by throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and just getting rid of them, which both has a big harm, and faces the problem getting passed.

That approach to prevent the corruption is like responding to a Congressman having an affair with his staff member by banning Congress members from having staff of the gender they're attracted to. It might work to prevent that specific problem, but has all kinds of harms in preventing opportunity, and preventing Congress people from having the best people.

It might throw out those bad, corrupt 'tax loopholes' - but the corruption will lead to other forms of corruption, just as Congresspeople will find other mistresses.

The nice thing about my analogy is that it's easier to make a decent tax system IF the political corruption is addressed, than to prevent infidelity.

We have a cultural problem. Just as there are countries who have cultures that accept mistresses making it very difficult for any wife to do much about it, we have a culture that has allowed a system corrupted by money, with massive lobbying organizations, recruiting members and staff of Congress when they leave office, billions poured into political campaigns, that corrupt our elections, and it has, and talk of a 'fix' is not going to help much without the barrier to a fix being addressed.

I'm not saying not to discuss the plan - but that I don't see any improvements in your plan but the sort of 'more harm than good' attempts to get around corruption.

That your plan would be modified before it was in place such that it would be even more weighted for the top than the current system.

We don't need to get rid of all tax incentives - just the corruption that makes them giveaways for the rich instead of helping the country.

First priority of the majority should be addressing law reform, so you are able to prosecute the corrupt in the system. First problem there is the legal system(industry) is run by professional liars, who will drive you insane if you attempt to cut their money stream- they aren't human they are parasites, real mom and dad American people need to make them feel as low as they are, so that maybe they develop a conscience and clean up their own filthy industry which is owned primarily by the bankers!
Can this be done without people dying, history clearly says, "No Way Jose".
Time to sharpen the pitch forks Cletus!

 

[Matt1970]

How is wanting a world were everyone is equal, were there is no rich, no poor, no greed, no crime, no poverty, ect such an evil thing.

Because it just doesn't work that way. Who is going to do the harder jobs with more responsibility without any compensations or rewards?

 

[piasabird]

So you are not even going to give poor people a break that make less money than the poverty line? The problem is the poverty line is way below what I would consider poverty level. I think how taxes work is there should be an amount of money that is considered poverty level say $25,000.00 or so, and then no one pays taxes until they make that much money. Then they only pay taxes on income they receive above that amount. That would reduce money earned that has to be collected as taxes and sent back to people that do not make enough money. I think we should throw out all retirement and saving plans that are taken out pre-tax. The penalties are too severe for people that get layed off. I think the penalty is worse than the tax.

At church we pay God 10% of Gross pay for tithing. If that is good enough for God it should be good enough for the government. The problem is there are so many loop holes and exemptions and credits that it is hard to even come up with some income that counts. The entire tax system is designed to hide your real income.

I think all companies with corporate offices outside the USA should pay a higher tax and all importers should have to pay a value added tax to import goods.

 

[DCal430]

Because it just doesn't work that way. Who is going to do the harder jobs with more responsibility without any compensations or rewards?

The problem is people mind have been instilled with greed. We need to educate people to believe they must work for the greater good of all of humanity. People must be educated and reeducated in the concept of working for the greater good of the whole rather than the individual. If we start at a young age, it can be done I believe.

 

[Tom]

The reason for not taxing the poor isn't to be nice. It's because taxing income from actual work disincentises work in favor of welfare or charity.

 

[davmat787]

The problem is people mind have been instilled with greed. We need to educate people to believe they must work for the greater good of all of humanity. People must be educated and reeducated in the concept of working for the greater good of the whole rather than the individual. If we start at a young age, it can be done I believe.

Sounds like a workers paradise!! Look, I don't think you are coming from a bad angle or are evil or whatever. I just don't think you are taking human nature into account, both the good and bad aspects.

 

[piasabird]

It is not greed if you want to take care of yourself and your family. It is suppose to be the American Ideal to make a lot of money.

Would you rather people sit on their asses and collect welfare while they are robbing stores and doing their drugs or would you rather people be working and making money?

Cant fix stupid.

 

[Throckmorton]

It is not greed if you want to take care of yourself and your family. It is suppose to be the American Ideal to make a lot of money.

Would you rather people sit on their asses and collect welfare while they are robbing stores and doing their drugs or would you rather people be working and making money?

Cant fix stupid.

The American Ideal is apparently now to make a lot of money by screwing your fellow Americans, and then when you fail, get bailed out by your fellow Americans.

 

[wuliheron]

The reason for not taxing the poor isn't to be nice. It's because taxing income from actual work disincentises work in favor of welfare or charity.

Or in favor of revolution. Since the original Athenian democracy people have basically been selling their votes. If their votes become worthless then democracy becomes worthless to them.

 

[airdata]

i like your idea OP.

Definitely need to tighten up any sorts of technicalities and other things huge corporations take advantage of. Corporations making billions upon billions should not be getting hand outs and getting away w\ paying no taxes.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The problem is people mind have been instilled with greed. We need to educate people to believe they must work for the greater good of all of humanity. People must be educated and reeducated in the concept of working for the greater good of the whole rather than the individual. If we start at a young age, it can be done I believe.

I give it to you, when you dream you dream big. No matter what you teach the children at school, what they see in the home is what drives their motivation in life. This is why we have three or more generations of welfare recipients. It's much easier to receive than it is to give.

 

[Rock Hydra]

You need to do better drugs or stop taking them altogether.

No, you need to stop legitimizing stealing.
Doing drugs isn't criminal. Stealing is.

 

[wuliheron]

No, you need to stop legitimizing stealing.
Doing drugs isn't criminal. Stealing is.

The legal system decides what is a crime and what is theft. If you don't like the legal system I suggest you try moving to Antarctica.

 

[nonlnear]

The legal system decides what is a crime and what is theft. If you don't like the legal system I suggest you try moving to Antarctica.

The legal system certainly decides what is a crime, but it does not decide what is theft. It only decides which kinds of theft to call crimes, which kinds of theft to institutionalize, and which kinds of theft to tacitly endorse by simply ignoring them.

 

[wuliheron]

The legal system certainly decides what is a crime, but it does not decide what is theft. It only decides which kinds of theft to call crimes, which kinds of theft to institutionalize, and which kinds of theft to tacitly endorse by simply ignoring them.

And words only have demonstrable meaning according to their function in a given context. In other words, you can act like a two year old if you want and call everything "theft", but I don't recommend it.

 

[drebo]

Taxes should be consumption-based. Remove income and payroll taxes and add a national VAT that must be paid any time goods exchange hands.

This is the only way to make them "fair" and "balanced".

Our current tax plan is absolutely ridiculous and overly complicated. Use or consumption-based taxes are quite easy.

 

[nonlnear]

And words only have demonstrable meaning according to their function in a given context. In other words, you can act like a two year old if you want and call everything "theft", but I don't recommend it.

Your arguments are as compelling as they are principled.

 

[wuliheron]

Your arguments are as compelling as they are principled.

We accept any and all donations, but no personal checks please.

 

[Patranus]

Taxes should be consumption-based. Remove income and payroll taxes and add a national VAT that must be paid any time goods exchange hands.

This is the only way to make them "fair" and "balanced".

Our current tax plan is absolutely ridiculous and overly complicated. Use or consumption-based taxes are quite easy.

A national VAT is also too complicated.
I do all of my services in India and then sell product in the US. I would be paying less tax on that product then someone who is manufacturing in the US.

If you are going to tax consumption a national sales tax would be a better idea.
Then end product being the only thing taxed, it levels the paying field.

However, the flat tax would be a easiest of fairest of them all.
If I do business in India not matter how much I spend there, all of my income i taxed at a fixed rate regardless of where the work is done. This taxes the operations of those who offshore and those who don't.

See how this is better?

 

[Rock Hydra]

And words only have demonstrable meaning according to their function in a given context. In other words, you can act like a two year old if you want and call everything "theft", but I don't recommend it.

You don't need words. If you take someone's property, against their will, and use violence to do so....it's stealing. you think it's okay because you think your personal agenda (forced burdens and service) supercedes mine and using the "government" to steal from me for reasons probably unknown to you gives you the moral high ground.

So this begs the question?

What amount of violence is personally acceptable to you to get me to pay for say.... a road?

 

[Rock Hydra]

A national VAT is also too complicated.
I do all of my services in India and then sell product in the US. I would be paying less tax on that product then someone who is manufacturing in the US.

If you are going to tax consumption a national sales tax would be a better idea.
Then end product being the only thing taxed, it levels the paying field.

However, the flat tax would be a easiest of fairest of them all.
If I do business in India not matter how much I spend there, all of my income i taxed at a fixed rate regardless of where the work is done. This taxes the operations of those who offshore and those who don't.

See how this is better?

It's not, because accountability is lost. The "government" has no duty to protect or provide a service (why do you think you have to ask [apply] for these services, but they don't ask you if you want to pay for them whether you use them or not?) . So, what incentive is there to really make a "fair" system? Why should we pay an institution that steals "for our protection" then turns around and says there is no duty to protect? Unless of course, you don't value your property, or time, or dignity, or common sense then turning over your labor and time without looking at the implications of such should be a no-brainer.

 

[wuliheron]

So this begs the question?

What amount of violence is personally acceptable to you to get me to pay for say.... a road?

By your definition if someone points a gun at me and I take it away by force I'm a thief stealing their gun. If I had to kill them to get that gun and prevent them from killing me I might be able to live with that. However, I still maintain that people don't normally call such things "theft" and you can make all the bullshit claims about anything you want and call anything you want "theft" and people will still laugh in your face.

 

[Tom]

You don't need words. If you take someone's property, against their will, and use violence to do so....it's stealing. you think it's okay because you think your personal agenda (forced burdens and service) supercedes mine and using the "government" to steal from me for reasons probably unknown to you gives you the moral high ground.

So this begs the question?

What amount of violence is personally acceptable to you to get me to pay for say.... a road?

You start from a false premise. That you can own something, absent government. The only reason you can own anything is either a.you are part of a society that recognizes the right to own property. or b. you are strong enough to hold on to it on your own.

Since most of us aren't warlords in Somalia, we rely on government to allow us to own property, and because government isn't free, we have to pay for it. So paying for government isn't stealing in any way, it's what enables the owning of something, and has a lot to do with the value of those possesions.