My only concern if we go to war with Iraq.

[charrison]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
I'm more concerned about the potential loss of innocent Iraqi civilians personally.
They suffered in the early 90's, by the hands of two tyrants, they will suffer again if we attack.

To each his own.

The Iraqi people are still suffering.
Systematic torture of political prisoners

Covering events from January - December 2001

A war would not be pretty and innocents would be killed but there would be hope at the end of the war. Right now, there doesn't seem to be much hope for the Iraqi people. Saddam has two sons which both seem to be worse than he is. One of them is slated to be the next Iraqi president.

I know political assasinations are illegal, but IMHO, its much better. Look, the people hated the guy back then, and they probably still hate the guy in their hearts. The only reason they would support him, is to get at us.

I know it sounds overly simplistic, but is it IMPOSSIBLE for us to assasinate S.H., his sons, whatever, etc.. and install a new leader there? don't we have ANY internal support from Iraqis? I'm sure we do. Lets topple his tyrannical, and threatening govt. and put someone better there, but dont' just go there and start bombing left and right. thats no solution. it will create a million bin ladens.

my .02

If were only that simple. The moment an Iraqi general does not appear to be 100% faithful, he and his family are dead. It is going to take more than just knocking a few people off.

 

[etech]

I know it sounds overly simplistic, but is it IMPOSSIBLE for us to assasinate S.H., his sons, whatever, etc.. and install a new leader there? don't we have ANY internal support from Iraqis? I'm sure we do. Lets topple his tyrannical, and threatening govt. and put someone better there, but dont' just go there and start bombing left and right. thats no solution. it will create a million bin ladens.

1) Yes, it is impossible just to assassinate Saddam and have a regime change.

Iraqi Intelligence Agencies
"The foundation of power of Saddam Hussein's regime is a network of security and intelligence agencies which protect the president and the regime from internal and external enemies. The number and size of these agencies have multiplied over time, and by design the areas of responsibility of different agencies are duplicative, to ensure both competition among the services and to ensure that no agency emerges as a threat to the power of Saddam. Agency responsibilities can be broadly divided among foreign operations, internal security [including both against foreign intelligence agencies and domestic opponents], leadership protection [primarily physical security and counter-coup military rapid-reactionf forces], as well as specialized agencies providing signals intelligence [SIGINT] and limited imagery intelligence [IMINT] technical collection capabilities. Nearly 70,000 troops are assigned to leadership protection tasks [not counting Republican Guard military formations], while the total staff level of agencies with other intelligence and security function is another 30,000 persons."

I'll have to look some more for the link but Saddam has established his hold on Iraq as a family/tribal enterprise. Removing the top or even top three layers would not change a thing.

Many of the people that would have supported a political overthrow are now dead. For many of them their families are also dead, tortured while they were forced to watch.

I'm getting pissed off at the people that use the term "bombing left and right". Stupid term that has no basis in reality.

 

[JellyBaby]

Wasn't spent DU ammo related to Gulf War Syndrome the troops picked up last time?

 

[Cyberian]

Originally posted by: vidgamefan

[I
The US will be shooting the overwhelming majority of DU rounds; exposure to them would probably be our fault.

I assume that you have some evidence about this.

 

[chizow]

.50 Cal DU rounds in an M2 Browning in Fallout Tactics rocked.

Chiz

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: etech

I know it sounds overly simplistic, but is it IMPOSSIBLE for us to assasinate S.H., his sons, whatever, etc.. and install a new leader there? don't we have ANY internal support from Iraqis? I'm sure we do. Lets topple his tyrannical, and threatening govt. and put someone better there, but dont' just go there and start bombing left and right. thats no solution. it will create a million bin ladens.

1) Yes, it is impossible just to assassinate Saddam and have a regime change.

Iraqi Intelligence Agencies
"The foundation of power of Saddam Hussein's regime is a network of security and intelligence agencies which protect the president and the regime from internal and external enemies. The number and size of these agencies have multiplied over time, and by design the areas of responsibility of different agencies are duplicative, to ensure both competition among the services and to ensure that no agency emerges as a threat to the power of Saddam. Agency responsibilities can be broadly divided among foreign operations, internal security [including both against foreign intelligence agencies and domestic opponents], leadership protection [primarily physical security and counter-coup military rapid-reactionf forces], as well as specialized agencies providing signals intelligence [SIGINT] and limited imagery intelligence [IMINT] technical collection capabilities. Nearly 70,000 troops are assigned to leadership protection tasks [not counting Republican Guard military formations], while the total staff level of agencies with other intelligence and security function is another 30,000 persons."

I'll have to look some more for the link but Saddam has established his hold on Iraq as a family/tribal enterprise. Removing the top or even top three layers would not change a thing.

Many of the people that would have supported a political overthrow are now dead. For many of them their families are also dead, tortured while they were forced to watch.

I'm getting pissed off at the people that use the term "bombing left and right". Stupid term that has no basis in reality.

I've seen footage where it did have a basis. Footage from the persian Gulf war, ever seen that? Ever seen it made by a third party, such as a french journalist? I have. We bombed hospitals, schools, and factories. We bombed all sorts of things that had NOTHING to do with the war or Sadams weapons.

One thing, also, i forgot, is that it isn't that easy to get rid of him also because the people in power get a lot of kickbacks, benefit, respect, and priveledges, which, they would not have if Sadaam isn't around. There is a lot of incentive for a lot of people that his policies remain in effect.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby
Wasn't spent DU ammo related to Gulf War Syndrome the troops picked up last time?

It is on the list of possible causes.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Cyberian

Originally posted by: vidgamefan

[I
The US will be shooting the overwhelming majority of DU rounds; exposure to them would probably be our fault.

I assume that you have some evidence about this.

Because Iraq does not use them. From what I have read, they did not even have the next best thing(tungston sabots) during gulf war 1.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjabV- ÓI've seen footage where it did have a basis. Footage from the persian Gulf war, ever seen that? Ever seen it made by a third party, such as a french journalist? I have. We bombed hospitals, schools, and factories. We bombed all sorts of things that had NOTHING to do with the war or Sadams weapons.

I guess you might think it impossible for those "innocent" targets to be used for military purposes?
I can guarantee you that the US military goes out of its way to avoid damaging civilian targets.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjabV- ÓI've seen footage where it did have a basis. Footage from the persian Gulf war, ever seen that? Ever seen it made by a third party, such as a french journalist? I have. We bombed hospitals, schools, and factories. We bombed all sorts of things that had NOTHING to do with the war or Sadams weapons.

I guess you might think it impossible for those "innocent" targets to be used for military purposes?
I can guarantee you that the US military goes out of its way to avoid damaging civilian targets.

guarantee it for me please, i dont' see how 5 year old kids could be used for anything military.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjabV- ÓI've seen footage where it did have a basis. Footage from the persian Gulf war, ever seen that? Ever seen it made by a third party, such as a french journalist? I have. We bombed hospitals, schools, and factories. We bombed all sorts of things that had NOTHING to do with the war or Sadams weapons.

I guess you might think it impossible for those "innocent" targets to be used for military purposes?
I can guarantee you that the US military goes out of its way to avoid damaging civilian targets.

guarantee it for me please, i dont' see how 5 year old kids could be used for anything military.

Human sheilds. Do we bomb the new command and control center being setup in a grade school? Such a situation would convert a civilian building into a military target. The US military would not bomb 5 year olds on purpose.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjabV- ÓI've seen footage where it did have a basis. Footage from the persian Gulf war, ever seen that? Ever seen it made by a third party, such as a french journalist? I have. We bombed hospitals, schools, and factories. We bombed all sorts of things that had NOTHING to do with the war or Sadams weapons.

I guess you might think it impossible for those "innocent" targets to be used for military purposes?
I can guarantee you that the US military goes out of its way to avoid damaging civilian targets.

guarantee it for me please, i dont' see how 5 year old kids could be used for anything military.

yah military isn't the term "junior terrorist' might be better.

 

[novon]

How about we go to war, the oil industry gets a boost, pollution increases, global warming happens, and we all die.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjabV- ÓI've seen footage where it did have a basis. Footage from the persian Gulf war, ever seen that? Ever seen it made by a third party, such as a french journalist? I have. We bombed hospitals, schools, and factories. We bombed all sorts of things that had NOTHING to do with the war or Sadams weapons.

I guess you might think it impossible for those "innocent" targets to be used for military purposes?
I can guarantee you that the US military goes out of its way to avoid damaging civilian targets.

guarantee it for me please, i dont' see how 5 year old kids could be used for anything military.

Human sheilds. Do we bomb the new command and control center being setup in a grade school? Such a situation would convert a civilian building into a military target. The US military would not bomb 5 year olds on purpose.

I guess its possible, but i don't know... in any case, if you get WorldLinkTV i suggest you try to watch it. Its called The Ghosts of Desert Storm I believe.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjabV- ÓI've seen footage where it did have a basis. Footage from the persian Gulf war, ever seen that? Ever seen it made by a third party, such as a french journalist? I have. We bombed hospitals, schools, and factories. We bombed all sorts of things that had NOTHING to do with the war or Sadams weapons.

I guess you might think it impossible for those "innocent" targets to be used for military purposes?
I can guarantee you that the US military goes out of its way to avoid damaging civilian targets.

guarantee it for me please, i dont' see how 5 year old kids could be used for anything military.

yah military isn't the term "junior terrorist' might be better.

oh come on. Not all young children in that part of the world are junior terrorists.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjabV- ÓI've seen footage where it did have a basis. Footage from the persian Gulf war, ever seen that? Ever seen it made by a third party, such as a french journalist? I have. We bombed hospitals, schools, and factories. We bombed all sorts of things that had NOTHING to do with the war or Sadams weapons.

I guess you might think it impossible for those "innocent" targets to be used for military purposes?
I can guarantee you that the US military goes out of its way to avoid damaging civilian targets.

guarantee it for me please, i dont' see how 5 year old kids could be used for anything military.

yah military isn't the term "junior terrorist' might be better.

oh come on. Not all young children in that part of the world are junior terrorists.

whatever, when you see footage of kids parading around in the streets with satchels (that are supposed to be bombs) tied around them...you tell me.

Kill 'em all, let Allah sort em out.

Chiz

Edit: I had to fix it..it was bugging me

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjabV- ÓI've seen footage where it did have a basis. Footage from the persian Gulf war, ever seen that? Ever seen it made by a third party, such as a french journalist? I have. We bombed hospitals, schools, and factories. We bombed all sorts of things that had NOTHING to do with the war or Sadams weapons.

I guess you might think it impossible for those "innocent" targets to be used for military purposes?
I can guarantee you that the US military goes out of its way to avoid damaging civilian targets.

guarantee it for me please, i dont' see how 5 year old kids could be used for anything military.

yah military isn't the term "junior terrorist' might be better.

oh come on. Not all young children in that part of the world are junior terrorists.

whatever, when you see footage of kids parading around in the streets with satchels (that are supposed to be bombs) tied around them...you tell me.

Kill 'em all, let Allah sort em out.

Chiz

Edit: I had to fix it..it was bugging me

Hey, i know as much as any other its a tough situation. My family lives close to Kashmir, and its as bad as Israel over there. But, you have to be able to see that all these things are a matter of fate. It just happens to be a situation where many people of the Islamic faith are squared against - pretty much everyone else. They are still human beings though, and when they are children, they are still innocent. If you see young children with guns in their hands or bombs strapped to them, it is by the doing of their parents, not them. Children are innocent, and children are children, wherever they may live in this world, of whatever religion, or color.

my .02

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjabV- ÓI've seen footage where it did have a basis. Footage from the persian Gulf war, ever seen that? Ever seen it made by a third party, such as a french journalist? I have. We bombed hospitals, schools, and factories. We bombed all sorts of things that had NOTHING to do with the war or Sadams weapons.

I guess you might think it impossible for those "innocent" targets to be used for military purposes?
I can guarantee you that the US military goes out of its way to avoid damaging civilian targets.

guarantee it for me please, i dont' see how 5 year old kids could be used for anything military.

Human sheilds. Do we bomb the new command and control center being setup in a grade school? Such a situation would convert a civilian building into a military target. The US military would not bomb 5 year olds on purpose.

I guess its possible, but i don't know... in any case, if you get WorldLinkTV i suggest you try to watch it. Its called The Ghosts of Desert Storm I believe.

I have no doubt that some innocent civilians died in gulf war 1. I have little doubt more innocents will die in gulf war 2, but none of them are purposely bombed. War is an unfortunate thing and it would be nice if all countries could play nice so this horrific thing could be avoided.

 

[Cyberian]

Originally posted by: novon
How about we go to war, the oil industry gets a boost, pollution increases, global warming happens, and we all die.

How about you contribute something positive to the discussion?
Could you explain to me exactly how 'the oil industry' would benefit from a war in Iraq?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Hey, i know as much as any other its a tough situation. My family lives close to Kashmir, and its as bad as Israel over there. But, you have to be able to see that all these things are a matter of fate. It just happens to be a situation where many people of the Islamic faith are squared against - pretty much everyone else. They are still human beings though, and when they are children, they are still innocent. If you see young children with guns in their hands or bombs strapped to them, it is by the doing of their parents, not them. Children are innocent, and children are children, wherever they may live in this world, of whatever religion, or color.

my .02

And the parents that choose to warp young children like this need to be eradicated.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjabV- ÓI've seen footage where it did have a basis. Footage from the persian Gulf war, ever seen that? Ever seen it made by a third party, such as a french journalist? I have. We bombed hospitals, schools, and factories. We bombed all sorts of things that had NOTHING to do with the war or Sadams weapons.

I guess you might think it impossible for those "innocent" targets to be used for military purposes?
I can guarantee you that the US military goes out of its way to avoid damaging civilian targets.

guarantee it for me please, i dont' see how 5 year old kids could be used for anything military.

Human sheilds. Do we bomb the new command and control center being setup in a grade school? Such a situation would convert a civilian building into a military target. The US military would not bomb 5 year olds on purpose.

I guess its possible, but i don't know... in any case, if you get WorldLinkTV i suggest you try to watch it. Its called The Ghosts of Desert Storm I believe.

I have no doubt that some innocent civilians died in gulf war 1. I have little doubt more innocents will die in gulf war 2, but none of them are purposely bombed. War is an unfortunate thing and it would be nice if all countries could play nice so this horrific thing could be avoided.

Well, to me the damage is more than just the gulf war. The economic sanctions imposed afterwards, the chemicals left behind, the contamination to their water, etc. Has resulted in supposedly over one hundred thousand deaths. I know our STUPID economic sanctions killed at least tens of thousands.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Hey, i know as much as any other its a tough situation. My family lives close to Kashmir, and its as bad as Israel over there. But, you have to be able to see that all these things are a matter of fate. It just happens to be a situation where many people of the Islamic faith are squared against - pretty much everyone else. They are still human beings though, and when they are children, they are still innocent. If you see young children with guns in their hands or bombs strapped to them, it is by the doing of their parents, not them. Children are innocent, and children are children, wherever they may live in this world, of whatever religion, or color.

my .02

And the parents that choose to warp young children like this need to be eradicated.

And that will create a ton of bin ladens.

It really is a vicious circle.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjabWell, to me the damage is more than just the gulf war. The economic sanctions imposed afterwards, the chemicals left behind, the contamination to their water, etc. Has resulted in supposedly over one hundred thousand deaths. I know our STUPID economic sanctions killed at least tens of thousands.

If Iraq would have played by surrender agreement, there would have been no sanctions.
I have read of the DU causing contamination and causing birth defects, but the last time I checked the tank battles did not occur near any major cities. And I am sure the fires that Hussein set also had little effect on the general health of the area. Much of the pain that Iraq is experiencing right now, is their own fault.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab i know as much as any other its a tough situation. My family lives close to Kashmir, and its as bad as Israel over there. But, you have to be able to see that all these things are a matter of fate. It just happens to be a situation where many people of the Islamic faith are squared against - pretty much everyone else. They are still human beings though, and when they are children, they are still innocent. If you see young children with guns in their hands or bombs strapped to them, it is by the doing of their parents, not them. Children are innocent, and children are children, wherever they may live in this world, of whatever religion, or color.

my .02

It wouldn't matter, you remove the parents from the equation or you relocate the children, and they would still grow up with contempt for those who imposed their current situation upon them. These people have nothing to lose and all too eagerly buy into all the crap propaganda fed to them by their "leaders". I have no remorse for them or their children, weak-minded as individuals and as a general populace to even allow this dictatorship to manifest itself and persevere. They should find out what Coup D'Etat means, but hell, they'd have to learn French, and thats probably beyond them.

Chiz

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Hey, i know as much as any other its a tough situation. My family lives close to Kashmir, and its as bad as Israel over there. But, you have to be able to see that all these things are a matter of fate. It just happens to be a situation where many people of the Islamic faith are squared against - pretty much everyone else. They are still human beings though, and when they are children, they are still innocent. If you see young children with guns in their hands or bombs strapped to them, it is by the doing of their parents, not them. Children are innocent, and children are children, wherever they may live in this world, of whatever religion, or color.

my .02

And the parents that choose to warp young children like this need to be eradicated.

And that will create a ton of bin ladens.

It really is a vicious circle.

And doing nothing is a better option?