My assessment of the sequester

[dbk]

Blame goes to everyone.. Obama thought that the Republicans would have to concede to further "tax revenue" for the good of the country to ultimately prevent the sequestration. Republicans realize that Obama is in a hole now and won't budge. This is a good opportunity for them to throw a lot of dirt at Obama. I mean, look at this picture!

Dems and Republicans have both come out to say that a straight, across-the-board cuts are not what anybody wants.. but nobody will budge.. It's all politics right now. Shame on all of them. They get to play their games while everyone suffers.


I'm in Northern VA and I've already heard all the stories of people being let go, contracts being put hold/eliminated. My friend got turned down for a job after he much had it due to the sequester. We can sit here and try to pin it on Obama or on the GOP but, honestly, who cares at this point? If only the Congress and the White House would realize this! meh

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Except they didn't use record breaking amounts of fillibusters and didn't refuse to play ball on EVERY bill, including a bill that passed with flying colors twice before dealing with violence and women...

There's a LOT of emotional rhetoric in your post; you might want to reflect on why you are so strongly emotionally motivated.

and they certainly didn't fillibuster their own bill for the first time in Senate history...

that is schizophrenic, could you provide a source; your post sounds like sound-bights from Rachel Maddow, so I'm incredulous.

 

[cwjerome]

we are stuck with improving what we have

Has not worked, does not work, not going to happen. Knock yourself out though.

and the first step is dropping the false equivalence.

That's a common buzzword of partisans, but no false equivalence here. I blame Reps for a lot of stuff, I blame Dems for a lot of stuff, and I blame both to varying degrees on a lot of stuff.

You seem to think that arranging the flower pots on the balcony is important while the entire building collapses. My point here is that playing the blame game when there is such little distinction as to who is to blame for the gridlock, budgetary BS, and general failure of working together in any real capacity for the last 15+ years is no pathway to real change or real solutions. It's just more of the same old same old.

The sequestration is just a symptom of the rot and if you think blaming Republicans for sequestration will fix the rot, well, good luck with that. Have fun in reactive mode trying to fix the never-ending multitude of bullshit failures and embarrassments, convinced that you're actually accomplishing anything as year after year it only gets worse. Hamsters in a wheel...

 

[cwjerome]

Assigning and recognizing who is at fault for a problem is the first step in fixing it...

Those sound like a pretty words, but the reality of our current situation is everyone is pointing their finger at everyone else, convinced they are right and in the end nobody is truly accountable and nothing gets fixed. In our current system, accountability cannot exist and fixes cannot happen. I know it practically gives the partisan cheerleaders coronaries to merely think about not blaming the other side, but if that continues to be our focus we'll continue to get Jerry Springer politics and bad government. I hate to say it, but we're going to have to move beyond the obvious and wishful thinking to get to the real, root issues that are making the political landscape a disaster.

 

[shadow9d9]

There's a LOT of emotional rhetoric in your post; you might want to reflect on why you are so strongly emotionally motivated.

that is schizophrenic, could you provide a source; your post sounds like sound-bights from Rachel Maddow, so I'm incredulous.

The fact that you have nothing to dispute the facts that there are record breaking fillibusters now speaks for itself. The Republicans have even voted against healthcare for first responders to 9/11 as well as the current renewal of the violence against women act. Everything Obama wants must be opposed at all costs. To compare this to Democrats during Bush is laughable. Just look at the fillibusters...

As for fillibustering his own bill, it was done by Mcconnell. A simple google search should provide you with as much info as you need.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/07/mitch-mcconnell-objects-to-himself-so-do-we/

Or in video form: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-december-10-2012/mitch-mcconnell-s-self-filibuster

This is what the Republicans have done... and yes, it is indeed insane...

 

[shadow9d9]

Those sound like a pretty words, but the reality of our current situation is everyone is pointing their finger at everyone else, convinced they are right and in the end nobody is truly accountable and nothing gets fixed. In our current system, accountability cannot exist and fixes cannot happen. I know it practically gives the partisan cheerleaders coronaries to merely think about not blaming the other side, but if that continues to be our focus we'll continue to get Jerry Springer politics and bad government. I hate to say it, but we're going to have to move beyond the obvious and wishful thinking to get to the real, root issues that are making the political landscape a disaster.

Umm, everyone involved could point fingers all they want. Politicians don't admit blame.

Anyone that paid attention saw that the Republicans used a usually uneventful vote to hold the world hostage. Polls reflect this recognition. It is up to the people to hold the correct people to blame. Luckily, the Republicans have made this easy for us.

 

[ivwshane]

There's a LOT of emotional rhetoric in your post; you might want to reflect on why you are so strongly emotionally motivated.

that is schizophrenic, could you provide a source; your post sounds like sound-bights from Rachel Maddow, so I'm incredulous.

I wish republican shenanigans were just lefty talking points, it would give credence to the "both sides share equal blame" talk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfenXNi9HcI

http://www.examiner.com/article/mit...ing-bill-gets-filibustered-by-mitch-mcconnell

 

[shadow9d9]

Has not worked, does not work, not going to happen. Knock yourself out though.



That's a common buzzword of partisans, but no false equivalence here. I blame Reps for a lot of stuff, I blame Dems for a lot of stuff, and I blame both to varying degrees on a lot of stuff.

You seem to think that arranging the flower pots on the balcony is important while the entire building collapses. My point here is that playing the blame game when there is such little distinction as to who is to blame for the gridlock, budgetary BS, and general failure of working together in any real capacity for the last 15+ years is no pathway to real change or real solutions. It's just more of the same old same old.

The sequestration is just a symptom of the rot and if you think blaming Republicans for sequestration will fix the rot, well, good luck with that. Have fun in reactive mode trying to fix the never-ending multitude of bullshit failures and embarrassments, convinced that you're actually accomplishing anything as year after year it only gets worse. Hamsters in a wheel...

The rot is people just throwing up their hands and saying "they are both bad" instead of holding the party responsible for holding the world's economy hostage, which resulted in a downgrade of US debt... if they cared about budget, they wouldn't have passed the bills that spent the money in the first place!

 

[Dr. Zaus]

The fact that you have nothing to dispute the facts that there are record breaking fillibusters now speaks for itself.

This again betrays how emotionally wrapped up you are in this all; you'll notice in the other thread that subscribe to Marx's historical materialism and am far from your "enemy" on this subject: Just ignorant and asking for the facts. Reflecting on why you are so hyped-up, coming at me with rhetoric instead of facts when asked for evidence, will benefit you (and your blood pressure).

But, I will mention, Rachel Maddow is bad for everyone's brain.

I wish republican shenanigans were just lefty talking points, it would give credence to the "both sides share equal blame" talk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfenXNi9HcI

http://www.examiner.com/article/mit...ing-bill-gets-filibustered-by-mitch-mcconnell

The present republican establishment is pathetic.

The rot is people just throwing up their hands and saying "they are both bad" instead of holding the party responsible for holding the world's economy hostage

Looks about right to me.

Ironically neither side is pro-economic-growth; as lower domestic spending is anti-growth just as higher taxes are.

 

[cwjerome]

Anyone that paid attention saw that the Republicans used a usually uneventful vote to hold the world hostage. Polls reflect this recognition. It is up to the people to hold the correct people to blame. Luckily, the Republicans have made this easy for us.

Coolbeans, I guess the blame is in and everything will be hunk-dory

Not. News flash, the blame is in and nothing will change. But you guys will get all giggly and bust some hi-fives and think you accomplished something, meanwhile politics and government continues to swirl the toilet bowl. Hey, I don't plan on changing your mind, I might as well be trying to get a Mets fan to love the Yankees, but the political sport is even more obsessive. I'm just throwing it out there...

 

[cwjerome]

The rot is people just throwing up their hands and saying "they are both bad" instead of holding the party responsible for holding the world's economy hostage, which resulted in a downgrade of US debt... if they cared about budget, they wouldn't have passed the bills that spent the money in the first place!

"Just throwing up my hands and saying they are both bad" is far from my position and you apparently don't understand my point... but gratz on the excellence string of talking points.

Once we get enough independent thinkers, we can address the rot and not react to the symptoms. Despite the partisan rhetoric that seems so common, it can and eventually will happen.

 

[ivwshane]

"Just throwing up my hands and saying they are both bad" is far from my position and you apparently don't understand my point... but gratz on the excellence string of talking points.

Once we get enough independent thinkers, we can address the rot and not react to the symptoms. Despite the partisan rhetoric that seems so common, it can and eventually will happen.

I think your wishful thinking is no different than his wishful thinking.

But if we look at history we may be able to find out whàt usually works.

Do you have any examples of independent thinkers coming to the forefront with real ideas and getting those ideas implemented (at the national level)?

Are there examples where blaming one side for something has changed public opinion that then led to a change in policies?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Once we get enough independent thinkers, we can address the rot and not react to the symptoms. Despite the partisan rhetoric that seems so common, it can and eventually will happen.

Don't just barb about pro-mets rhetoric ; draw out a few well articulated arguments clearly linked to facts so we can get a better understanding of how to clean the stains from the porcelain.

 

[fskimospy]

Has not worked, does not work, not going to happen. Knock yourself out though.



That's a common buzzword of partisans, but no false equivalence here. I blame Reps for a lot of stuff, I blame Dems for a lot of stuff, and I blame both to varying degrees on a lot of stuff.

You seem to think that arranging the flower pots on the balcony is important while the entire building collapses. My point here is that playing the blame game when there is such little distinction as to who is to blame for the gridlock, budgetary BS, and general failure of working together in any real capacity for the last 15+ years is no pathway to real change or real solutions. It's just more of the same old same old.

The sequestration is just a symptom of the rot and if you think blaming Republicans for sequestration will fix the rot, well, good luck with that. Have fun in reactive mode trying to fix the never-ending multitude of bullshit failures and embarrassments, convinced that you're actually accomplishing anything as year after year it only gets worse. Hamsters in a wheel...

As others have said, your post is symptomatic of the rot; you are enabling it. It is the same problem our media faces.

If you will notice, my issues are specifically with the positions that you have expressed in this thread, as I think they are enormously short sighted and destructive. In both of your last two posts you have attempted to assign positions to me that I do not hold, so please stop doing that.

 

[fskimospy]

Coolbeans, I guess the blame is in and everything will be hunk-dory

Not. News flash, the blame is in and nothing will change. But you guys will get all giggly and bust some hi-fives and think you accomplished something, meanwhile politics and government continues to swirl the toilet bowl. Hey, I don't plan on changing your mind, I might as well be trying to get a Mets fan to love the Yankees, but the political sport is even more obsessive. I'm just throwing it out there...

So wait, you don't think minds can be changed but you are counting on a collection of independent thinkers materializing down the road and fixing things? You are living in a fantasy world. It is very Christian in a sense though, rejecting the worldly to focus on the afterlife.

If you have evidence that makes you think your preferred ideas will come to pass any time in any of our lifetimes, please tell us what that evidence is.

 

[Craig234]

That's a common buzzword of partisans, but no false equivalence here. I blame Reps for a lot of stuff, I blame Dems for a lot of stuff...

Well, glad to see no false equivalence there.

You seem to think that arranging the flower pots on the balcony is important while the entire building collapses. My point here is that playing the blame game when there is such little distinction as to who is to blame for the gridlock, budgetary BS, and general failure of working together in any real capacity for the last 15+ years is no pathway to real change or real solutions. It's just more of the same old same old.

The sequestration is just a symptom of the rot and if you think blaming Republicans for sequestration will fix the rot, well, good luck with that. Have fun in reactive mode trying to fix the never-ending multitude of bullshit failures and embarrassments, convinced that you're actually accomplishing anything as year after year it only gets worse. Hamsters in a wheel...

At some point, it's not enough to say there are bigger issues, without naming them.

I agree with you that there are - most of all the excessive concentration of wealth driving all the other problems - but putting blame where it belongs doesn't prevent saying that.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Blame may have to go to "everyone", but there's one simple bottom line.

If the Republicans had simply agreed to raise the debt limit without demanding concessions -- as had been done every prior time -- none of this would be happening.

 

[shadow9d9]

This again betrays how emotionally wrapped up you are in this all; you'll notice in the other thread that subscribe to Marx's historical materialism and am far from your "enemy" on this subject: Just ignorant and asking for the facts. Reflecting on why you are so hyped-up, coming at me with rhetoric instead of facts when asked for evidence, will benefit you (and your blood pressure).

But, I will mention, Rachel Maddow is bad for everyone's brain.




The present republican establishment is pathetic.

Looks about right to me.

Ironically neither side is pro-economic-growth; as lower domestic spending is anti-growth just as higher taxes are.

I've never seen Maddow's show in my life. I don't get my news from tv. Using assumptions to attack me doesn't strengthen your argument.

Fillibuster amounts and how even easy bills are being fought are pure facts.

I thought this forum was supposed to be more about addressing facts and less using assumptions to attack posters...

 

[shadow9d9]

"Just throwing up my hands and saying they are both bad" is far from my position and you apparently don't understand my point... but gratz on the excellence string of talking points.

Once we get enough independent thinkers, we can address the rot and not react to the symptoms. Despite the partisan rhetoric that seems so common, it can and eventually will happen.

Except that that is exactly what you said.

 

[shadow9d9]

I think your wishful thinking is no different than his wishful thinking.

But if we look at history we may be able to find out whàt usually works.

Do you have any examples of independent thinkers coming to the forefront with real ideas and getting those ideas implemented (at the national level)?

Are there examples where blaming one side for something has changed public opinion that then led to a change in policies?

The public already blamed them for the root of this as polls showed back then.

 

[Craig234]

I've never seen Maddow's show in my life. I don't get my news from tv. Using assumptions to attack me doesn't strengthen your argument.

Fillibuster amounts and how even easy bills are being fought are pure facts.

I thought this forum was supposed to be more about addressing facts and less using assumptions to attack posters...

You should check out Maddow's show, she often has very good info.

 

[ivwshane]

The public already blamed them for the root of this as polls showed back then.

Yes but does that actually lead to a policy change.


If it does then correctly assigning blame is absolutely vital to moving forward.

 

[shadow9d9]

Yes but does that actually lead to a policy change.


If it does then correctly assigning blame is absolutely vital to moving forward.

Voters voted more against them this time than last election... gerrymandering prevented some more losses... but it is up to the voters to do something about it in our system.

 

[cwjerome]

So wait, you don't think minds can be changed but you are counting on a collection of independent thinkers materializing down the road and fixing things? You are living in a fantasy world. It is very Christian in a sense though, rejecting the worldly to focus on the afterlife.

If you have evidence that makes you think your preferred ideas will come to pass any time in any of our lifetimes, please tell us what that evidence is.

You lost me. Or better yet, you never understood my words you quoted. I said I didn't plan on changing one person's mind -Shadow9d9's- on this topic in this forum. I am not in a personal debate with one individual to convert his worldview. I'm simply putting out ideas for "the masses" to do what they want with. I have no idea what your fantasy-Christian comment means or how it applies to what I said.

Yes, I do believe the block of political independents can and will make a difference. I believe there could be viable 3rd party/independent candidates winning national level elections. This is what I alluded to when I mentioned independent thinkers; people who care about ideas and the nation over political parties. I have many reasons to believe this, but three bigger ones are:
1) People who identify themselves as political independents has been growing steadily for 30 years and this should continue.
2) The massive swings between elections in the last 15 years (where one party wins a ton of seats and the next election it's a lopsided reversal) indicates that there are a lot of independents and how they vote makes a huge impact.
3) Independents don't necessarily need to win presidential elections to have heavy influences on politics and policy. This is demonstrated by elections where a 3rd candidate actually did reasonably well (1912, 1968, 1992, to name a few), and how many of their ideas were incorporated/implemented by the victor afterward.

The Reps and Dems basically have a monopoly via collusion going back 150 years. That is disturbing. They are entrenched and organized in every state and those Reps and Dems are elected into office and make the voting/election laws that favor them. A slightly separate topic but very related is the issue of widespread gerrymandering for 40 years that have basically locked in Rep and Dem candidates.

The issue of failed parties and failed politicians and failed government (all of which is represented perfectly by sequestration) is highly complex with a lot of connected, moving parts. One of the top issues I have identified here is the Rep-Dem dominance/false dichotomy. Part of the solution lies with growth and power of independent-minded people who can care less about the Rep-Dem game and see through the petty partisan bullshit. These people are more calm, pragmatic, and less biased. They care about results and the country as a whole, not winning elections and playing power politics.

That is what I'm getting at when I mention independent thinkers and how they can help drastically change the political landscape for the better.

 

[cwjerome]

As others have said, your post is symptomatic of the rot; you are enabling it. It is the same problem our media faces.

If you will notice, my issues are specifically with the positions that you have expressed in this thread, as I think they are enormously short sighted and destructive. In both of your last two posts you have attempted to assign positions to me that I do not hold, so please stop doing that.

I'm just going to have to disagree with you and the others here that think blaming Reps for this (or Dems in any different issue) fulfills an important purpose that will lead to fundamental change in how the system operates. I'm just going to have to disagree with you that tackling the tougher, larger problems that define our damaged political landscape is "short sighted and destructive."

I have clearly stated that I think assigning blame is mainly the function of predictable, petty, partisan squabbling and overrides any authentic, sincere move towards changing a deeply flawed system. I have clearly stated that real fixes and solutions cannot happen in our current operational environment and for genuine, long-term changes for the better to actually occur we need to address the great, primary issues that have propped our highly dysfunctional political-civic structure.

I just can't believe anyone thinks that blaming Reps in this issue will cause massive introspection on everyone's part and those Reps will say "oh snap, sorry about that" then we will have a great flourish of good government with all of our systemic, core issues that currently warp our system getting fixed as a result. Yeah, No. Actually it's just the same continuation of blame, no accountability, no progress, and shitty policy. That is what's short-sighted and destructive. When the social-political framework is perverse, the people are perverse. You will not make angels out of Reps and Dems until that framework is addressed correctly.

Notice, I'm not saying there should be no such thing as blame, I'm saying that blame in our current situation is a function of part of the problem and that blaming cannot lead to better government because the system is broke and blame does not serve it's normally useful purpose.