My assessment of the sequester

[Craig234]

But you aren't getting the cuts you want. If you truly want to cut waste, you don't do it by causing a 20% paycut for gov't civilians. Again, they aren't really cutting anything else.

Here is what they are doing. They are pulling back on patrols. They are cutting corners where ever possible. But by my math, they are getting ~1/3 of the cost savings off the backs of gov't employees. They will just reduce whatever the can without actually pulling any money off of any of the DoD programs in general.

So all the waste, fraud, and/or abuse can continue. The massive DoD contractors will still be racking in the money and lining the pockets of the GOP. It does not do what you want.

I'm sympathetic to your point, but unfortuantely, sometimes the only way to get to waste is to start with cutting better things, assuming you're correct.

Otherwise, the waste is just untouchable and nothing happens.

Any time anyone wants to cut waste, they can just say 'if you force cuts, we'll cut the good programs, so don't bother'. Sometimes that needs to be done.

After that, better things might come - no guarantee.

But I'm opposed enough to the military excesses that I might support some cuts to programs I may well agree with you are good.

Of course, we presumably agree with better reforms - such as getting money out of politics and public campaign financing - that might allow for the 'right cuts' instead.

But that's a long way off it seems, if ever.

 

[cwjerome]

People are too accepting of this sequester bullshit. People should be enraged, ENRAGED, at our government and our politicians. To me the whole thing represents just how screwed up our current state is and how worthless our political leaders truly are. This is an incredible symbol of our desperate, damaged condition... our government's fundamental failure to conduct the most basic governance. I would take the greatest pleasure to punch every one of these spoiled, immature brats in the throat. Man the F up and quit hiding in your team's corner, drop the tired rhetoric and do something, make something happen, compromise, make the tough decisions, and do what's right. They should be locked in a room with no toilet and water and told not to come out until they have a workable solution. Worthless assholes.

What we need now, probably more than at any other time since WWII, is strategic, targeted action. Skillful, reasonable, and long terms actions, policies, and goals. But what do we have? A blundering forum of useless douchebags that cannot function at the most basic level and the unmanaged, slash and burn policies that are the result of incompetent default more than rational thinking. We have allowed too much and simply shrug our shoulders, barely phased, at the utter miscarriage of our trust. I see this as a collective middle finger from our representatives right in our face.

 

[Craig234]

People are too accepting of this sequester bullshit. People should be enraged, ENRAGED, at our government and our politicians. To me the whole thing represents just how screwed up our current state is and how worthless our political leaders truly are. This is an incredible symbol of our desperate, damaged condition... our government's fundamental failure to conduct the most basic governance. I would take the greatest pleasure to punch every one of these spoiled, immature brats in the throat. Man the F up and quit hiding in your team's corner, drop the tired rhetoric and do something, make something happen, compromise, make the tough decisions, and do what's right. They should be locked in a room with no toilet and water and told not to come out until they have a workable solution. Worthless assholes.

What we need now, probably more than at any other time since WWII, is strategic, targeted action. Skillful, reasonable, and long terms actions, policies, and goals. But what do we have? A blundering forum of useless douchebags that cannot function at the most basic level and the unmanaged, slash and burn policies that are the result of incompetent default more than rational thinking. We have allowed too much and simply shrug our shoulders, barely phased, at the utter miscarriage of our trust. I see this as a collective middle finger from our representatives right in our face.

Problem with yur post is its zero identification of who is doing what wrong.

Bernie Sanders and Rand Paul are not the same.

The parties are not equally guilty of obstructionism and things like abusing the veto and taking a 'no matter what the ther side suggests, oppose it' policy.

When one side does something bad and you say 'they're equally guilty', that's just as 'partisan' and wrong as blaming only one side when they're both guilty.

 

[cwjerome]

Problem with yur post is its zero identification of who is doing what wrong.

Bernie Sanders and Rand Paul are not the same.

The parties are not equally guilty of obstructionism and things like abusing the veto and taking a 'no matter what the ther side suggests, oppose it' policy.

When one side does something bad and you say 'they're equally guilty', that's just as 'partisan' and wrong as blaming only one side when they're both guilty.

As the title says, that's my assessment. As far as blame goes I'll say first and foremost it's the leadership of Boehner, Cantor, Pelosi, McConnell, Reid, and Obama.

As far as the deep-rooted problems that plague our government, why they exist and how they cause they current mess, that's a complex topic I need a lot more time to address than I have right now. I'll leave the one-sided finger-pointing to you, it's a useless gesture when there's fundamental cracks in the system that make superficial solutions meaningless. If Rand Paul dropped off the face of the Earth tomorrow, nothing would change. It's bigger than a person or a hundred people. It's social, it's civic, it's organizational. The partisan champions will blame and score points but none of the matters and nothing will change.

 

[shadow9d9]

As the title says, that's my assessment. As far as blame goes I'll say first and foremost it's the leadership of Boehner, Cantor, Pelosi, McConnell, Reid, and Obama.

As far as the deep-rooted problems that plague our government, why they exist and how they cause they current mess, that's a complex topic I need a lot more time to address than I have right now. I'll leave the one-sided finger-pointing to you, it's a useless gesture when there's fundamental cracks in the system that make superficial solutions meaningless. If Rand Paul dropped off the face of the Earth tomorrow, nothing would change. It's bigger than a person or a hundred people. It's social, it's civic, it's organizational. The partisan champions will blame and score points but none of the matters and nothing will change.

Naming all of the leaders and trying to claim they are all to blame doesn't say much. They are not equally to blame. You might as well say that all of congress and the president is to blame. What good is that?

The debt ceiling has never been a problem before, until the Republicans made it into one. Don't like spending? Fight it at budget time. Don't hold the world hostage. This puts the Republicans at the root of the blame. Period.

The sequester was meant to be harsh enough to force cooperation. It would not have been necessary if the Republicans didn't try to hold us hostage. Blame still goes to the Republicans for CAUSING the problem in the first place.

By refusing to hold the Republicans accountable first and foremost for STARTING this problem in the first place, you are supporting the idea that the US and world's economy should be held hostage to get what one political party wants. If they don't like the budget, don't vote on one and then complain afterwards.

 

[randomrogue]

Tough to blame anyone but the Republicans for this.

Debt ceiling needs raising. Republics refuse to get anything done. Our debt is downgraded. Now they still can't get anything done.

 

[cwjerome]

Tough to blame anyone but the Republicans for this.

Debt ceiling needs raising. Republics refuse to get anything done. Our debt is downgraded. Now they still can't get anything done.

The budgetary breakdowns before 2011 were bipartisan. The 2011sequestration rule was strongly bipartisan. The blame, bickering, and failures since then is bipartisan. You may be happy assigning more blame to Republicans. To me it doesn't matter if the blame is 65% Rep or 35% Rep, the whole business leading up to this and what's happening now is a systemic breakdown. This isn't about one decision a party made, or 10 decisions 10 people made, this is much bigger than that. Once again people are superficially asking the wrong questions (who is to blame?) while the basic structure everyone is operating under is crumbling. What we need to be asking is, "what are the forces that are creating a toxic civic environment that's leading to a failure of governance and creating all these problems?"

Trying to blame Reps or Dems will not solve anything, it will not actually change anything significant, but that's where most people operate, in the shallow end where things just go round-and-round in the petty partisan game of fools.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Naming all of the leaders and trying to claim they are all to blame doesn't say much. They are not equally to blame. You might as well say that all of congress and the president is to blame. What good is that?

The debt ceiling has never been a problem before, until the Republicans made it into one. Don't like spending? Fight it at budget time. Don't hold the world hostage. This puts the Republicans at the root of the blame. Period.

The sequester was meant to be harsh enough to force cooperation. It would not have been necessary if the Republicans didn't try to hold us hostage. Blame still goes to the Republicans for CAUSING the problem in the first place.

By refusing to hold the Republicans accountable first and foremost for STARTING this problem in the first place, you are supporting the idea that the US and world's economy should be held hostage to get what one political party wants. If they don't like the budget, don't vote on one and then complain afterwards.

Makes no difference who started the problem; one can go back to when Congress chose to spend more revenue that it was taxing for and said some other Congress can worry about it.

Tough to blame anyone but the Republicans for this.

Debt ceiling needs raising. Republics refuse to get anything done. Our debt is downgraded. Now they still can't get anything done.

Trying to foster the blame on one party is wrong.

Congress (as a whole) refuses to be responsible.

They as a group decision, have chosen for years to kick the deficit/budget can down the road.

Eventually, some stood up and said that this is wrong to pass the buck.
Most others agreed, either openly or by nodding their heads.

Then others said that if we know this is wrong; lets do something about it.
Most others agreed, either openly or by nodding their heads.

When asked how to do it; everyone said; get a select group together to figure this out.
The select group came up with a plan and also realized that the plan would be opposed because it was in everyone's best interest; not just one sides.
this group also realized that unless it was forced down the throat of Congress; it would not happen.
So a "worse" alternative was added to ensure the primary goal was acceptable.

Everyone said great job; then most said - nope, the other side has to give more.
Everyone felt that the "worst case" scenario would cause the other side to fold.

No, everyone stood pat and here we are.

No side is willing to bend a little for fear it is seen as weakness.
No side is willing to put out a common sense solution.

Continue to play the blame game makes it more difficult to correct the issues.
Instead of having to point a finger; look at where the other three fingers are pointing.

Extend the hand to solve the issue. Pointing makes it worse even though it may make you feel better.

 

[ivwshane]

"what are the forces that are creating a toxic civic environment that's leading to a failure of governance and creating all these problems?"

That's an easy one! Redistricting. Redistrtricting has allowed politicians (both sides do it but republicans have predominantly benefited from it) to be protected from any opposition.

Without the threat of losing ones job there isn't any incentive for compromise and in fact the incentive is just the opposite, not to compromise.

So the real question is; how do we fix redistricting and even more difficult how do you get it passed?


Applying equal blame when the blame isn't equal doesn't seem like that would help.
If accountability wont be held at the district level then it must be done at the national level.

 

[cwjerome]

That's an easy one! Redistricting. Redistrtricting has allowed politicians (both sides do it but republicans have predominantly benefited from it) to be protected from any opposition.

Without the threat of losing ones job there isn't any incentive for compromise and in fact the incentive is just the opposite, no compromise.

So the real question is; how do we fix redistricting and even more difficult how do you get it passed?


Applying equal blame when the blame isn't equal doesn't seem like that would help.
If accountability wont be held at the district level then it must be done at the national level.

Wow, you are actually spot on. Gerrymandering is one of the main problems we will have to change.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Tough to blame anyone but the Republicans for this.

Really? It's really that tough? It looks damn easy to me.

 

[ivwshane]

Really? It's really that tough? It looks damn easy to me.

You are right, it's not difficult, especially when republican leaders hold "secret" meetings discussing how they will oppose everything the president does and make their primary focus to have Obama be a one term president.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You are right, it's not difficult, especially when republican leaders hold "secret" meetings discussing how they will oppose everything the president does and make their primary focus to have Obama be a one term president.

Tell me something...don't you think Democratic leaders met to discuss political strategies for winning the 2004 election with their "primary focus" to make Bush a one term president as well? Don't you think they talked about ways to circumvent various aspects of his politcal agenda as well?

Anyway...I was talking about the sequester...not sure what you're talking about that's relevant to the topic....or anything else for that matter.

 

[fskimospy]

Really? It's really that tough? It looks damn easy to me.

Guys, all the Republicans did was manufacture a crisis, accept Obama's offer to end the crisis they created, and then publicly celebrate the agreement. I think we can all agree that holding them responsible for events that they precipitated and then welcomed at the time would be deeply unfair.

Furthermore, Republicans put forth a super responsible plan to replace defense cuts by reducing funding for food stamps and other cushy quasi-communist programs while pledging to not allow for a single penny in tax increases as part of an overall deficit reduction plan. What could be more reasonable than that? I mean a single chamber of government passed a plan, they did their job. How can you hold them responsible if the entire rest of the elected government is against what they want? When you think about it, the most logical thing to do is to blame the other 2/3rds of government for not doing whatever 1/3rd of it wants to do.

By the way, I am really enjoying the GOP try and describe how government spending is terrible but you can't cut this government spending.

 

[shadow9d9]

The budgetary breakdowns before 2011 were bipartisan. The 2011sequestration rule was strongly bipartisan. The blame, bickering, and failures since then is bipartisan. You may be happy assigning more blame to Republicans. To me it doesn't matter if the blame is 65% Rep or 35% Rep, the whole business leading up to this and what's happening now is a systemic breakdown. This isn't about one decision a party made, or 10 decisions 10 people made, this is much bigger than that. Once again people are superficially asking the wrong questions (who is to blame?) while the basic structure everyone is operating under is crumbling. What we need to be asking is, "what are the forces that are creating a toxic civic environment that's leading to a failure of governance and creating all these problems?"

Trying to blame Reps or Dems will not solve anything, it will not actually change anything significant, but that's where most people operate, in the shallow end where things just go round-and-round in the petty partisan game of fools.

Umm, the sequestration has nothing to do with the budget. This "fight" was started because the Republicans wanted to hold the world's economy hostage over raising the debt ceiling... If they had a problem with the budget, they should pick a fight when PASSING THE BUDGET.

The blame is solely on them.

 

[Craig234]

Makes no difference who started the problem

Yes, it does.

Trying to foster the blame on one party is wrong.

No more wrong than trying to blame parties equally who are not equally to blame.

No side is willing to bend a little for fear it is seen as weakness.

First, they 'are willing to bend a little', each side on different things, different amounts. Hell, Obama splits the difference, then moves more to them, and starts negotiating there.

Some refusal to 'compromise' is very justified. Is it a compromise if you give up things you think are good for the country, and get nothing in return? Why do that?

No side is willing to put out a common sense solution.

Common sense is an abused phrase. There are some fighting for very corrupt things; some fighting for ideological things; some fighting for power; some the good of the country.

Continue to play the blame game makes it more difficult to correct the issues.

Not assigning blame to people causing problems make it more difficult. They just keep causing more.

Pointing makes it worse even though it may make you feel better.

Adolf, we don't mean to point fingers, but can't we find a common sense solution to the problem of your invading countries, recognizing we're all guilty?

Sorry, but the aversion to 'blame' is very destructive, preventing the public from understanding the issues.

Not every issue has a solution by splitting the difference - that just makes the sides change their demands so the middle moves their direction.

 

[fskimospy]

The budgetary breakdowns before 2011 were bipartisan. The 2011sequestration rule was strongly bipartisan. The blame, bickering, and failures since then is bipartisan. You may be happy assigning more blame to Republicans. To me it doesn't matter if the blame is 65% Rep or 35% Rep, the whole business leading up to this and what's happening now is a systemic breakdown. This isn't about one decision a party made, or 10 decisions 10 people made, this is much bigger than that. Once again people are superficially asking the wrong questions (who is to blame?) while the basic structure everyone is operating under is crumbling. What we need to be asking is, "what are the forces that are creating a toxic civic environment that's leading to a failure of governance and creating all these problems?"

Trying to blame Reps or Dems will not solve anything, it will not actually change anything significant, but that's where most people operate, in the shallow end where things just go round-and-round in the petty partisan game of fools.

You might not want to hear this, but things like this post are part of the problem. When you try to assign blame to the system as a whole or take 'a pox on both your houses' approach you allow those who are truly to blame escape consequences for their bad behavior. If you knew that no matter how irresponsibly you acted that you wouldn't be held accountable for it, that's an incentive to act irresponsible.

In this case we had one of our two political parties decide to hold the world economy hostage to get cuts in domestic programs that it wanted. When a solution to the ransom it demanded was come up with they accepted it. Now they have come back screaming about how it was all the other guys' fault this happened... when they were the ones who forced the crisis to begin with.

Effective political reform in this country begins with holding people accountable for their actions. Much like we should hold Obama's feet to the fire for his egregious violations of civil liberties we need to hold Republicans accountable for their incredibly irresponsible legislative behavior over the last few years.

 

[chucky2]

How were the Fed numbers allowed to get so incredibly high so as to come up against the incredibly high limit? It seems to me that is the question people should be asking. Insane things like "remove the limit" or "just raise it automatically" or other such delusions are a waste of time. It's like someone screaming that there's a saltwater taste to the freshwater while standing on the Titanic as it's going down, and demanding that we get more freshwater brought onboard. Yeah dude, we know the freshwater is tainted, but we've got far bigger problems...

 

[cwjerome]

You might not want to hear this, but things like this post are part of the problem. When you try to assign blame to the system as a whole or take 'a pox on both your houses' approach you allow those who are truly to blame escape consequences for their bad behavior. If you knew that no matter how irresponsibly you acted that you wouldn't be held accountable for it, that's an incentive to act irresponsible.

In this case we had one of our two political parties decide to hold the world economy hostage to get cuts in domestic programs that it wanted. When a solution to the ransom it demanded was come up with they accepted it. Now they have come back screaming about how it was all the other guys' fault this happened... when they were the ones who forced the crisis to begin with.

Effective political reform in this country begins with holding people accountable for their actions. Much like we should hold Obama's feet to the fire for his egregious violations of civil liberties we need to hold Republicans accountable for their incredibly irresponsible legislative behavior over the last few years.

When I say there's no point in blaming them I'm saying that you can blame the Reps for this all you want but nothing will change. You can blame Obama all you want for civil liberties violations but the blame does nothing. You can't seem to grasp the idea that for the most part there is no real accountability. In the end, there will still be Reps and still be Dems, blaming each other while nothing gets done and it's groundhog day or week or month or year all over again. We are stuck in a corrupt two party paradigm and the two parties are locked into a perverse, never-ending routine where most of the time, the politically advantageous thing to do is also the worst thing to do for good governance. That's truth and the truth is depressing.

You may not want to hear this but what 95% of the people, including you, are doing is dutifully playing the shallow game in front of your nose instead of thinking deeply about the cause and effect of fundamental problems that are causing massive damage. You're just scraping the surface. Effective political reform in this country will only happen when we change the conditions of the game to promote fresh alternatives.

 

[Craig234]

How were the Fed numbers allowed to get so incredibly high so as to come up against the incredibly high limit? It seems to me that is the question people should be asking. Insane things like "remove the limit" or "just raise it automatically" or other such delusions are a waste of time. It's like someone screaming that there's a saltwater taste to the freshwater while standing on the Titanic as it's going down, and demanding that we get more freshwater brought onboard. Yeah dude, we know the freshwater is tainted, but we've got far bigger problems...

They're expected to hit the limit - the limit is always just a temporary measure.

The relevant question is about the appropriations, not the debt ceiling - and why we have the 'debt ceiling' at all.

It's like you go to a restaurant and eat a meal, and they give you the check, and you say 'whoops, I have a debt ceiling I'm over so you don't get paid'.

The appropriations are for 'controlling spending'. The debt limit is not. It's paying bills.

 

[fskimospy]

When I say there's no point in blaming them I'm saying that you can blame the Reps for this all you want but nothing will change. You can blame Obama all you want for civil liberties violations but the blame does nothing. You can't seem to grasp the idea that for the most part there is no real accountability. In the end, there will still be Reps and still be Dems, blaming each other while nothing gets done and it's groundhog day or week or month or year all over again. We are stuck in a corrupt two party paradigm and the two parties are locked into a perverse, never-ending routine where most of the time, the politically advantageous thing to do is also the worst thing to do for good governance. That's truth and the truth is depressing.

You may not want to hear this but what 95% of the people, including you, are doing is dutifully playing the shallow game in front of your nose instead of thinking deeply about the cause and effect of fundamental problems that are causing massive damage. You're just scraping the surface. Effective political reform in this country will only happen when we change the conditions of the game to promote fresh alternatives.

Uhmm, no. With just some cursory searching of my posts you cam find numerous cases, going back years, where I advocate for electoral reform. Since that isn't going to happen though, we are stuck with improving what we have, and the first step is dropping the false equivalence.

 

[ivwshane]

Tell me something...don't you think Democratic leaders met to discuss political strategies for winning the 2004 election with their "primary focus" to make Bush a one term president as well? Don't you think they talked about ways to circumvent various aspects of his politcal agenda as well?

Anyway...I was talking about the sequester...not sure what you're talking about that's relevant to the topic....or anything else for that matter.

Do you have proof? Otherwise you are just assuming and that's not a valid argument.

 

[chucky2]

They're expected to hit the limit - the limit is always just a temporary measure.

The relevant question is about the appropriations, not the debt ceiling - and why we have the 'debt ceiling' at all.

It's like you go to a restaurant and eat a meal, and they give you the check, and you say 'whoops, I have a debt ceiling I'm over so you don't get paid'.

The appropriations are for 'controlling spending'. The debt limit is not. It's paying bills.

Right, that's what I'm saying. The debt ceiling is only important because it signals that the Pols failed to properly budget and spend money. They should never be hitting the debt ceiling. Not because they should remove it or raise it to some astronomical number so they can spend with impunity for eternity, but because we should expect the Pols to reign in spending inline with income so as to not hit it ever.

Using your analogy, when I want to go out to eat and I look at my almost maxed credit card and empty bank account, what I do is instead of heading to Shaw's, I head downstairs and eat some leftovers: That is, I don't spend the money I don't have in the first place.

Chuck

 

[shadow9d9]

When I say there's no point in blaming them I'm saying that you can blame the Reps for this all you want but nothing will change. You can blame Obama all you want for civil liberties violations but the blame does nothing. You can't seem to grasp the idea that for the most part there is no real accountability. In the end, there will still be Reps and still be Dems, blaming each other while nothing gets done and it's groundhog day or week or month or year all over again. We are stuck in a corrupt two party paradigm and the two parties are locked into a perverse, never-ending routine where most of the time, the politically advantageous thing to do is also the worst thing to do for good governance. That's truth and the truth is depressing.

You may not want to hear this but what 95% of the people, including you, are doing is dutifully playing the shallow game in front of your nose instead of thinking deeply about the cause and effect of fundamental problems that are causing massive damage. You're just scraping the surface. Effective political reform in this country will only happen when we change the conditions of the game to promote fresh alternatives.

Assigning and recognizing who is at fault for a problem is the first step in fixing it...

 

[shadow9d9]

Tell me something...don't you think Democratic leaders met to discuss political strategies for winning the 2004 election with their "primary focus" to make Bush a one term president as well? Don't you think they talked about ways to circumvent various aspects of his politcal agenda as well?

Anyway...I was talking about the sequester...not sure what you're talking about that's relevant to the topic....or anything else for that matter.

Except they didn't use record breaking amounts of fillibusters and didn't refuse to play ball on EVERY bill, including a bill that passed with flying colors twice before dealing with violence and women... and they certainly didn't fillibuster their own bill for the first time in Senate history...