Solved! My 5800x + 3080 thoughts - Read if upgrading

[Zstream]

Hi Everyone,

I thought I would post this in the CPU section, because the majority of time spent tweaking has been on the CPU side of things. If you want this thread moved, feel free to move it.

Just to give everyone a quick overview of what I've been dealing with.

Old Setup:

• Asus TUF Gaming (wifi) x570 board
• AMD 3600
• 32gb 3200 (b-die) O/C to 3400 16/17/17/36
• Two Intel 512GB SSD's 545S Series
• Cooler Master 240 AIO
• Nvidia 2060 EVGA

New Setup:

• Asus TUF Gaming (wifi) x570 board
• AMD 5800X
• 32gb 3200 (b-die) O/C to 3400 16/17/17/36
• Two GAMMIX S11 PRO
• Cooler Master 360 AIO
• Nvidia 3080 EVGA

The journey started when I upgraded the BIOS to 2607 from ASUS the day before I picked up my 5800X. After I updated the BIOS, I unplugged the machine, took out the cooler, and CPU and proceeded to wait. After the extremely long wait at Microcenter, I picked up the chip, put it in and did all the usual with paste and what not for the new AIO. I did not swap out my SSD's as of yet, because I wanted to see the differences right away, and to be honest, installing Window 10 isn't exactly five minutes of work

Well the CPU was stuck on 1.1GHZ because that bios didn't support the version I was running. To be honest I either clicked the wrong download for the BIOS or did multiple downloads on the USB drive, because the chip wasn't really acting properly at all. I ended up download the latest version again, even though I thought I downloaded it before. Apparently not! I finished installing the latest bios that had support for the new chips (2802). At least Windows started up properly, and the speed was all good. I did notice however that the core being fed to this chip was around 1.4/1.49... I was shocked and frankly scared to proceed any further after I found that out.

I went into the Asus BIOS and struggled with getting this thing to accept the bios vcore setting of 1.25, or any other rational setting for that matter. I ended up running Asus O/C tuner which somehow managed to feed the CPU 1.09 while maintaining 4.2ghz. With Ryzen master reporting better temps, and core voltage I felt a little better as there is no way it needs that much to function.

After that cooled my emotions for a bit, I also noticed that ASUS had new chipset drivers. Noob Tip: Check for bios and chipset drivers at the same time!

Upgraded the latest chipset drivers and while installing the drivers the install screen went to **** and either the GPU panicked or CPU went crazy because it kept launching in a one inch by inch window.. I managed to install the drivers and all went well. Noticed that the Ryzen power setting went away, which if I'm being honest.. annoyed me.

After all said and done I ran some benchmarks and compared that to my 3600 + 3080 scores, and nothing really showed distinct increase in measurement. Now, maybe my benchmarks aren't a list of the latest games, but it was within a 10-15% range. Some FPS managed to stay higher longer, and the rapid change in FPS was much less. Outside of that, not much of a difference.

Once that was all done, I went ahead and went with a clean install of Windows with the new NVME's. Well if you're new to those, you realize that these things run HOT. I mean they both run at 44C, which is often 10 degrees warmer than the CPU. For reference the Intel SSD's run at 20-25C.

Over the past four hours I've moved to the 2812 bios, and again the vcore sky rocketed, and was forced to run the ASUS O/C which stepped in to change vcore setting and max clock. I can't for the life of me be able to set this manually..

TLDR - Update BIOS to the latest version, watch your vcore with Ryzen Master or just enter the bios! There are issues on Nvidia's side with drivers, and what seem to be bios' on motherboards. I'd personally wait a few weeks or maybe a month or two if I had to make this decision again.

 

[Zstream]

This reminds me of some of the discussions we had after Ryzen 3000 was launched. Weren't you around back then @Zstream?

Yes, and it's pretty awful that AMD keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.

 

[Elfear]

Yes, and it's pretty awful that AMD keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.

I'm not sure what you're getting on about. If AMD engineers are saying the voltage fed to the chip is okay, why are you arguing with them?

 

[DrMrLordX]

All you really need to do is look at the temps and power usage. That'll tell you if the high voltages signify anything important.

 

[Zstream]

I'm not sure what you're getting on about. If AMD engineers are saying the voltage fed to the chip is okay, why are you arguing with them?

WOW, ok.. gone are the days of objectivity. Either you're a rabid fan or on the other team eh?

 

[DrMrLordX]

WOW, ok.. gone are the days of objectivity. Either you're a rabid fan or on the other team eh?

It's not like that. It's that reporting software isn't showing you the whole picture, and at extremely low current values, 1.5v isn't a threat to chips on TSMC N7. Just watch temps and PPT/power usage. That tells you more than transient voltage values.

 

[Zstream]

It's not like that. It's that reporting software isn't showing you the whole picture, and at extremely low current values, 1.5v isn't a threat to chips on TSMC N7. Just watch temps and PPT/power usage. That tells you more than transient voltage values.

Yes, but I'm not sure how anyone is taking away what I'm saying and implying it's "my fault" and it's "normal". Who would call a hot chip normal due to insane voltages being sent to it. Low voltage = cool chip being reported. Default voltage = warm/hot chip. Difference in benchmarks between low and high voltage = hardly a difference.

 

[Zstream]

Well it's not just me:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/joyabb

Hell if Ian reported it.

 

[Elfear]

WOW, ok.. gone are the days of objectivity. Either you're a rabid fan or on the other team eh?

I'm not calling you out for saying something negative about AMD. Companies should be accountable when they screw up. But after reading through the thread, your argument seems to be that your processor is being fed too much voltage and that this is an issue that has persisted with AMD for a long time ("Yes, and it's pretty awful that AMD keeps making the same mistakes over and over again."). In general, that is NOT the case as multiple people have pointed out to you. That's the intended behavior of the Zen chips.

If you are bugged by your chip running hotter than is comfortable for you, you can adjust the power limits in the bios.

 

[Rigg]

There is no such thing as safe voltage for a CPU in any practical sense. Voltage is irrelevant. Current is not. If you are talking about what voltage is safe, without the context of the load that's being placed on it, then you simply do not understand Ohms law. The 'safe voltage' concept is nothing but a guide for people. Its based on a worse case scenario load going through a fixed voltage. Safe voltage is an irrelevant concept to Zen 2 & 3 when not using fixed voltage and clock settings.

Zen 2 & 3 are a bit unique in how they operate. When running stock settings the VID adjusts in real time according to the load (current) being placed on the CPU. When the CPU does not have a high current load placed on it it will increase voltage to ramp up clock speed. This has not changed from the previous generation. The CPU's are engineered to exhibit the behavior you are describing. Again, please post some screenshots with HWI64 while running some different loads so we can determine if there is an actual issue or just a complete misunderstanding of how these CPU's are engineered to operate.

 

[Dave3000]

Is the TJmax higher on the 5800x than the 5900x?

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

It's very counter-intuitive. I was asking the same thing with my 3800X a while ago. Right now I'm observing HWinfo64 CPU Core Voltage (SVI2 TFN) bouncing around from 1.0v to 1.494v using a stock AMD Ryzen Balanced plan with nothing running except HWinfo.

When I enable Ultimate Power Plan that is customized & has Processor idle disable set to Disable Idle - Disable idle states the CPU Core Voltage (SVI2 TFN) changes to 1.369v with nothing else running. It stays at those volts.

 

[Rigg]

I guess we need to beat this dead horse again.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/cbls9g

 

[DrMrLordX]

Yes, but I'm not sure how anyone is taking away what I'm saying and implying it's "my fault" and it's "normal". Who would call a hot chip normal due to insane voltages being sent to it. Low voltage = cool chip being reported. Default voltage = warm/hot chip. Difference in benchmarks between low and high voltage = hardly a difference.

Again, the voltage isn't insane if the current level is low. If the PPT is too high for the given workload (or at idle) then yes, you have a problem. But you can't immediately look at the voltage and conclude there's a problem.

 

[Zstream]

There is no such thing as safe voltage for a CPU in any practical sense. Voltage is irrelevant. Current is not. If you are talking about what voltage is safe, without the context of the load that's being placed on it, then you simply do not understand Ohms law. The 'safe voltage' concept is nothing but a guide for people. Its based on a worse case scenario load going through a fixed voltage. Safe voltage is an irrelevant concept to Zen 2 & 3 when not using fixed voltage and clock settings.

Zen 2 & 3 are a bit unique in how they operate. When running stock settings the VID adjusts in real time according to the load (current) being placed on the CPU. When the CPU does not have a high current load placed on it it will increase voltage to ramp up clock speed. This has not changed from the previous generation. The CPU's are engineered to exhibit the behavior you are describing. Again, please post some screenshots with HWI64 while running some different loads so we can determine if there is an actual issue or just a complete misunderstanding of how these CPU's are engineered to operate.

I have in my possession a 1700, 3600, and 5800x. I'm not here to argue with anyone, or have someone attempt to rationalize the hardware. The 5800X has too much voltage being sent to it, causing it to heat like a space heater. There is no rationalizing it, period. To @DrMrLordX - I can certainly tell that voltage is too high because I can lower the voltage and get the same performance with less heat output. This is the very same conversation I had when I rationalized the 480, and how it performed better and provided less heat output because we undervolted the card. I came off as an ASS because I was attempting to rationalize the silliness of AMD at the time, and the reason for the extreme voltages.

All, this isn't about defending "your brand". I just asked a friend to point out his 5900X voltages, and it's around 1.35 max on all core.

Again, I have no idea why people are taking offense, or trying to tell me the chip is good. We're ALL fully aware the chip works, it's functional, it performs relative well, and is within spec of what AMD has said.

It is NOT the best chip to buy in the stack if you're using default settings, it's fed too much voltage, it gets crazy warm by default.

I posted this to warn people to update their bios before and get a general idea of what I went through. Nothing more, nothing less. Close the thread as this has divulged into people getting worked up about a damn CPU.

 

[Hitman928]

I have in my possession a 1700, 3600, and 5800x. I'm not here to argue with anyone, or have someone attempt to rationalize the hardware. The 5800X has too much voltage being sent to it, causing it to heat like a space heater. There is no rationalizing it, period. To @DrMrLordX - I can certainly tell that voltage is too high because I can lower the voltage and get the same performance with less heat output. This is the very same conversation I had when I rationalized the 480, and how it performed better and provided less heat output because we undervolted the card. I came off as an ASS because I was attempting to rationalize the silliness of AMD at the time, and the reason for the extreme voltages.

All, this isn't about defending "your brand". I just asked a friend to point out his 5900X voltages, and it's around 1.35 max on all core.

Again, I have no idea why people are taking offense, or trying to tell me the chip is good. We're ALL fully aware the chip works, it's functional, it performs relative well, and is within spec of what AMD has said.

It is NOT the best chip to buy in the stack if you're using default settings, it's fed too much voltage, it gets crazy warm by default.

I posted this to warn people to update their bios before and get a general idea of what I went through. Nothing more, nothing less. Close the thread as this has divulged into people getting worked up about a damn CPU.

When everything is at 100% stock, what frequency and voltage do you see running cinebench multi-core?

 

[.vodka]

Again, I have no idea why people are taking offense, or trying to tell me the chip is good. We're ALL fully aware the chip works, it's functional, it performs relative well, and is within spec of what AMD has said.

It is NOT the best chip to buy in the stack if you're using default settings, it's fed too much voltage, it gets crazy warm by default.

I posted this to warn people to update their bios before and get a general idea of what I went through. Nothing more, nothing less.

You'll tend to get these kind of responses if you insult people when they're trying to help you.

Having said that,

Problem is (and you've also been told this in this thread), the 5800X is specified for the 105w TDP bracket (142w PPT, 95A TDC, 140A EDC), and it needs to dissipate up to that much from a 80mm² piece of silicon. Thermal density is through the roof. This isn't the case on the 5900X and 5950X that have 12 and 16 cores, but also are specified for the same settings and heat is now distributed over 160mm² of silicon.

You can do a few things until the next AGESA update where tuning will probably be different, bugs will be squashed and you'll also be able to offset undervolt:

1) Lower PPT so you force the entire CPU package and the boost algorithm to a lower limit.

Go to PBO settings in your BIOS, set it to manual, then set PPT to 120w and check how hot it gets. If too hot, keep going down until you're comfortable with what you see. You'll lose multithreaded performance this way, single threaded speed won't be affected. This would be ideal to work with if you could undervolt too, but you can't at the moment. Wait until the next BIOS update.

If still too hot then set the PPT TDC EDC settings for the 65w TDP bracket (PPT 88, TDC 60, EDC 99). You'll lose much more MT performance, but it could be just what you need at the moment.

2) Disable Core Performance Boost (this disables the boost algorithm so it won't try to work against you manually setting things), set a safe static voltage that you're comfortable with (~1.2-1.25v), then set a fixed multiplier that is stable at that voltage. Check thermals, if too hot keep lowering voltage (and the corresponding stable frequency) until you're comfortable with the results. You'll lose single threaded performance this way, but you'll definitely keep thermals in check.

 

[Zstream]

You'll tend to get these kind of responses if you insult people when they're trying to help you.

No, they aren't trying to help. It's an attempt at trying to rationalize a underperforming binned chip. I've found more on Reddit, where people ACTUALLY have the hardware and don't accuse someone of negligence. This isn't a well "it has a small space to dissipate heat". The chips are overvolted, period.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/jqulma

"Not quite. The power draw of the 5800X is disproportionate given the amount of cores it has and its clockspeed. If you normalize for the amount of cores it has, then the 5800X is consuming 40 % more per core and clocking 4-5 % higher than 5600X. The more limited surface is a factor, but it isn't the main reason.

My current working theory is that somebody tried to tune the voltages such that the 5800X generates the same heat as the 5600X relative to the amount of work it does, but whoever did it accidentally used the package power instead of the power used by the cpu cores when tuning the voltages.

If you compute the relative efficiency of the 5600X and the 5800X in e.g. the blender benchmark by gamers nexus, then the amount of energy consumed to complete the benchmark is almost exactly the same (their ratio is about 1.005), which probably isn't a coincidence. Somebody at AMD or at the motherboard manufacturers probably tried to tune the cpus towards that target.

If you do the calculation correctly and only use the power consumed by the cores (which would be the deciding factor for core temp due to being a hotspot), the 5800X is quite inefficient.

The 5800X uses about 10-20 % more power to do the same amount of work per core as the 5600X. In the stock configuration, it is either clocked higher than it should be or its voltages are higher than they should be.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...HVKSoQxJF_6eSLk31n1wAuaG3k/edit#gid=312993919

It's also suspicious that it clocks lower than the 5600X in loads that only use 3-4 cores (see the data by anandtech) while using 40 % more power.

Basically it should be generating 33 % more heat due to having more cores, but it's generating 60-70 % more instead while being clocked only 4 % higher."

Anandtech also has something interesting in their Zen 3 article.

"Also of note are the last two processors – both processors are reporting 4450 MHz all-core turbo frequency, however the 5800X is doing it with 14.55 W per core, but the 5600X can do it with only 10.20 W per core. In this instance, this seems that the voltage of the 5800X is a lot higher than the other processors, and this is forcing higher thermals – we were measuring 90ºC at full load after 30 seconds (compared to 73ºC on the 5600X or 64ºC on the 5950X), which might be stunting the frequency here. The motherboard might be over-egging the voltage a little here, going way above what is actually required for the core."

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16214/amd-zen-3-ryzen-deep-dive-review-5950x-5900x-5800x-and-5700x-tested/7

Maybe instead of accusing people of not reading slides, the community would learn. I'm done with the thread.

 

[Rigg]

I have in my possession a 1700, 3600, and 5800x. I'm not here to argue with anyone, or have someone attempt to rationalize the hardware. The 5800X has too much voltage being sent to it, causing it to heat like a space heater. There is no rationalizing it, period. To @DrMrLordX - I can certainly tell that voltage is too high because I can lower the voltage and get the same performance with less heat output. This is the very same conversation I had when I rationalized the 480, and how it performed better and provided less heat output because we undervolted the card. I came off as an ASS because I was attempting to rationalize the silliness of AMD at the time, and the reason for the extreme voltages.

All, this isn't about defending "your brand". I just asked a friend to point out his 5900X voltages, and it's around 1.35 max on all core.

Again, I have no idea why people are taking offense, or trying to tell me the chip is good. We're ALL fully aware the chip works, it's functional, it performs relative well, and is within spec of what AMD has said.

It is NOT the best chip to buy in the stack if you're using default settings, it's fed too much voltage, it gets crazy warm by default.

I posted this to warn people to update their bios before and get a general idea of what I went through. Nothing more, nothing less. Close the thread as this has divulged into people getting worked up about a damn CPU.

I don't think anyone trying to rationalize anything. You are getting defensive because myself and others have questioned whether this is a misunderstanding or an actual issue. I can only speak for myself, but I haven't dismissed the possibility that there is an actual issue. Since you haven't provided us any screenshots, and haven't clearly articulated what is actually going on, it's impossible to know.

If you were to post some screen shots of HWI64 (with the GUI widened to see as much info as possible) it would go a long way to clearing this up. All it would take is 3 screenshots with default settings enabled (with the latest BIOS). CBR20 single, CBR20 multi, and P95 small fft (AVX disabled).

 

[Blockheadfan]

Is choosing yourself as the "best solution" really the intent of the feature? Makes it difficult to believe you were interested in getting information over having a somewhat misinformed whinge.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Is choosing yourself as the "best solution" really the intent of the feature? Makes it difficult to believe you were interested in getting information over having a somewhat misinformed whinge.

Well I think the takeaway here is, if your Ryzen CPU is running too hot (or something), it's best to describe the temps under what workloads, and to tell people what was the PPT under what circumstances.

 

[.vodka]

@Zstream and any hot running 5800X user

AMD Precision Boost Overdrive 2: Adaptive Undervolting For Ryzen 5000 Coming Soon

www.anandtech.com

Update your BIOS when it's available and get on with this, it'll solve your issues. Proper undervolting with a performance boost.