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Muslims still in denial

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Link

June 22, 2006
Muslims 'Still in Denial' About 9/11, Pew Survey Finds
By MEG BORTIN International Herald Tribune

PARIS, June 22 ? Non-Muslim Westerners and Muslims around the world have widely different views of world events, and each group tends to view the other as violent, intolerant, and lacking in respect for women, a new international survey of more than 14,000 people in 13 nations indicates.

In what the survey, part of the Pew Global Attitudes Project for 2006, called one of its most striking findings, majorities in Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan and Turkey ? Muslim countries with fairly strong ties to America ? said, for example, that they did not believe that Arabs carried out the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States. The findings, illustrating the chasm in beliefs, follow another year of violence and tension centered around that divide. In the past 12 months, there have been terrorist bombings in London, riots in France by unemployed youths, many of them Muslim, a global uproar over Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, and no letup to the war in Iraq.

This led majorities in the United States and in countries in Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East to describe relations between Muslims and people in Western countries as generally bad, Pew found.

Over all, Muslims in the survey worldwide, including the large Islamic populations in Britain, France, Germany and Spain, broadly blamed the West, while Westerners tended to blame Muslims for the bad relations. Muslims in the Middle East and Asia depicted Westerners as immoral and selfish, while Westerners saw Muslims as fanatical.

The results were not uniform, however, and delivered some surprises: Support for terrorism declined in some Muslim countries surveyed, dropping dramatically in Jordan, where terrorist bombings killed more than 50 people in Amman in November.

Two-thirds of the French people surveyed expressed positive views of Muslims, and even larger majorities of French Muslims felt favorable toward Christians and Jews. Muslims in Europe surveyed were less inclined to see a "clash of civilizations" than general publics in Europe and Muslims elsewhere.

Pew found sharp divergences on respect toward women: Non-Muslims in the West view Muslims as lacking respect, the survey indicated, while Muslims outside Europe say the same of Westerners.

In the West, where many view as discriminatory Islamic customs like mandatory veils for women and prohibitions on women working outside the home or driving, big majorities saw Muslims as not respectful of women. In contrast, fewer than half of the Muslims asked in Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Nigeria, Pakistan and Turkey said they associate Westerners with respect toward women. European Muslims surveyed were more likely to view Westerners as respectful of women, though, in some places by wide margins. Pew, which interviewed Muslims in Europe as a group for the first time this year, said their views represented "a bridge" between the widely divergent views of other Europeans and Muslims in Asia and the Middle East.

The overall results, said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center, show that "even though relations are not good, there hasn't been a spike in outright hostility between the two groups over the past year." While both sides see relations as bad, he said, "at least it's not getting worse."

Nonetheless, majorities in every country surveyed except Pakistan expressed pessimism about Muslim-Western relations, with Germany most strongly viewing the situation as bad (70 percent), followed by France (66 percent), Turkey (64 percent), Spain and Britain (61 percent), and Egypt (58 percent).

Pew surveyed 14,030 people from March 31 to May 14 in Britain, Egypt, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Jordan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Russia, Spain, Turkey and the United States. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus two to four percentage points in every country except Britain and Germany, where it is six points.

For analytical purposes, Muslims were oversampled in Britain, France, Germany and Spain, and the margin of sampling error for their responses is plus or minus five or six points.

Interviews were conducted face to face, except in the United States, Britain, France and Germany, where they were done by telephone. The poll was conducted nationwide except in India and Pakistan, where is mostly covered only urban areas. In follow-up interviews in countries surveyed about the results, Muslims attributed the poor relations with the West to a variety of causes. But many pointed to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians as the main cause and accused the West of double standards on terrorism.

"Whenever the Israelis strike the Palestinians, the international community and the U.N. turn a blind eye or keep quiet," said Saleh Bayeri, a politician and Muslim community leader in Jos, Nigeria. "But when the Palestinians launch a counterattack, it is condemned by America, the U.K. and other friends of Israel as a terror attack."

Pew asked respondents to give their opinions of Christians, Muslims and Jews, and it found anti-Jewish sentiment to be "overwhelming" in the Muslim countries surveyed. It reached 98 percent in Jordan and 97 percent in Egypt.

Majorities in the Muslim world, Pew said, also expressed the opinion that the victory of the militant group, Hamas, in Palestinian elections in January would "be helpful to a fair settlement between Israel and the Palestinians ? a view that is roundly rejected by non-Muslim publics."

Disbelief was strong among Muslims that Arabs were behind the Sept. 11 attacks, with 65 percent in Indonesia and 59 percent in Turkey, for example, expressing that viewpoint. Even in Britain, 56 percent of the Muslims surveyed did not believe that Arabs carried out the attacks. The results, Mr. Kohut said, show that "many Muslims are still in denial" about something that even Osama bin Laden has acknowledged.
None of this is really surprising at all, it reflects past polls. I really don't hold out any hope that any of this lunacy will decline, regardless of our actions in Iraq, and I don't think there's any answer. Fundamental Islam is a cancer, and it's very pervasive through the religion.

I wish we had invested a trillion in figuring out alternate energies, then let the lunatics drink their oil and eat their sand.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Link

June 22, 2006
Muslims 'Still in Denial' About 9/11, Pew Survey Finds
By MEG BORTIN International Herald Tribune

PARIS, June 22 ? Non-Muslim Westerners and Muslims around the world have widely different views of world events, and each group tends to view the other as violent, intolerant, and lacking in respect for women, a new international survey of more than 14,000 people in 13 nations indicates.

In what the survey, part of the Pew Global Attitudes Project for 2006, called one of its most striking findings, majorities in Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan and Turkey ? Muslim countries with fairly strong ties to America ? said, for example, that they did not believe that Arabs carried out the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States. The findings, illustrating the chasm in beliefs, follow another year of violence and tension centered around that divide. In the past 12 months, there have been terrorist bombings in London, riots in France by unemployed youths, many of them Muslim, a global uproar over Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, and no letup to the war in Iraq.

This led majorities in the United States and in countries in Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East to describe relations between Muslims and people in Western countries as generally bad, Pew found.

Over all, Muslims in the survey worldwide, including the large Islamic populations in Britain, France, Germany and Spain, broadly blamed the West, while Westerners tended to blame Muslims for the bad relations. Muslims in the Middle East and Asia depicted Westerners as immoral and selfish, while Westerners saw Muslims as fanatical.

The results were not uniform, however, and delivered some surprises: Support for terrorism declined in some Muslim countries surveyed, dropping dramatically in Jordan, where terrorist bombings killed more than 50 people in Amman in November.

Two-thirds of the French people surveyed expressed positive views of Muslims, and even larger majorities of French Muslims felt favorable toward Christians and Jews. Muslims in Europe surveyed were less inclined to see a "clash of civilizations" than general publics in Europe and Muslims elsewhere.

Pew found sharp divergences on respect toward women: Non-Muslims in the West view Muslims as lacking respect, the survey indicated, while Muslims outside Europe say the same of Westerners.

In the West, where many view as discriminatory Islamic customs like mandatory veils for women and prohibitions on women working outside the home or driving, big majorities saw Muslims as not respectful of women. In contrast, fewer than half of the Muslims asked in Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Nigeria, Pakistan and Turkey said they associate Westerners with respect toward women. European Muslims surveyed were more likely to view Westerners as respectful of women, though, in some places by wide margins. Pew, which interviewed Muslims in Europe as a group for the first time this year, said their views represented "a bridge" between the widely divergent views of other Europeans and Muslims in Asia and the Middle East.

The overall results, said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center, show that "even though relations are not good, there hasn't been a spike in outright hostility between the two groups over the past year." While both sides see relations as bad, he said, "at least it's not getting worse."

Nonetheless, majorities in every country surveyed except Pakistan expressed pessimism about Muslim-Western relations, with Germany most strongly viewing the situation as bad (70 percent), followed by France (66 percent), Turkey (64 percent), Spain and Britain (61 percent), and Egypt (58 percent).

Pew surveyed 14,030 people from March 31 to May 14 in Britain, Egypt, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Jordan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Russia, Spain, Turkey and the United States. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus two to four percentage points in every country except Britain and Germany, where it is six points.

For analytical purposes, Muslims were oversampled in Britain, France, Germany and Spain, and the margin of sampling error for their responses is plus or minus five or six points.

Interviews were conducted face to face, except in the United States, Britain, France and Germany, where they were done by telephone. The poll was conducted nationwide except in India and Pakistan, where is mostly covered only urban areas. In follow-up interviews in countries surveyed about the results, Muslims attributed the poor relations with the West to a variety of causes. But many pointed to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians as the main cause and accused the West of double standards on terrorism.

"Whenever the Israelis strike the Palestinians, the international community and the U.N. turn a blind eye or keep quiet," said Saleh Bayeri, a politician and Muslim community leader in Jos, Nigeria. "But when the Palestinians launch a counterattack, it is condemned by America, the U.K. and other friends of Israel as a terror attack."

Pew asked respondents to give their opinions of Christians, Muslims and Jews, and it found anti-Jewish sentiment to be "overwhelming" in the Muslim countries surveyed. It reached 98 percent in Jordan and 97 percent in Egypt.

Majorities in the Muslim world, Pew said, also expressed the opinion that the victory of the militant group, Hamas, in Palestinian elections in January would "be helpful to a fair settlement between Israel and the Palestinians ? a view that is roundly rejected by non-Muslim publics."

Disbelief was strong among Muslims that Arabs were behind the Sept. 11 attacks, with 65 percent in Indonesia and 59 percent in Turkey, for example, expressing that viewpoint. Even in Britain, 56 percent of the Muslims surveyed did not believe that Arabs carried out the attacks. The results, Mr. Kohut said, show that "many Muslims are still in denial" about something that even Osama bin Laden has acknowledged.
None of this is really surprising at all, it reflects past polls. I really don't hold out any hope that any of this lunacy will decline, regardless of our actions in Iraq, and I don't think there's any answer. Fundamental Islam is a cancer, and it's very pervasive through the religion.

I wish we had invested a trillion in figuring out alternate energies, then let the lunatics drink their oil and eat their sand.

I think the problem is that, as the survey really seems to show, a lot of Muslims view everyone else as their enemy to some degree. But before we look down our noses at them, I think we view them the exact same way. I suspect a similar poll about Muslims taken in the US would have similar results. What we need is for both groups to stop thinking of the entire other group as their enemy.
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,767
435
126
Originally posted by: alchemize

None of this is really surprising at all, it reflects past polls. I really don't hold out any hope that any of this lunacy will decline, regardless of our actions in Iraq, and I don't think there's any answer. Fundamental Islam is a cancer, and it's very pervasive through the religion.

I wish we had invested a trillion in figuring out alternate energies, then let the lunatics drink their oil and eat their sand.

There is nothing new in this. The Islamic viewpoint always encourages an 'us versus them' attitude. It basically stems from the Quranic teaching to distrust non believers. Even if Muhammed himself awoke from the dead and tried to convince them of otherwise, they would not believe him because it would not fit within their worldview.

The problem also stems from another cause, the falliability of rationality when confronting Islam. They believe in propoganda and are taught never to question it.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: alchemize

None of this is really surprising at all, it reflects past polls. I really don't hold out any hope that any of this lunacy will decline, regardless of our actions in Iraq, and I don't think there's any answer. Fundamental Islam is a cancer, and it's very pervasive through the religion.

I wish we had invested a trillion in figuring out alternate energies, then let the lunatics drink their oil and eat their sand.

There is nothing new in this. The Islamic viewpoint always encourages an 'us versus them' attitude. It basically stems from the Quranic teaching to distrust non believers. Even if Muhammed himself awoke from the dead and tried to convince them of otherwise, they would not believe him because it would not fit within their worldview.

The problem also stems from another cause, the falliability of rationality when confronting Islam. They believe in propoganda and are taught never to question it.

Heh, the "us versus them" attitude is certainly not confined to Muslims. I hear it every day from a rather large number of Americans. We're trying to promote democracy and peace within a large Muslim country in the Middle East while making it clear that a lot of us think they are all a bunch of comrade terrorists. Not exactly a winning combination if you ask me.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
9/11 was a conspiracy and the US/West is at fault for trouble with Islamism? I wonder if Pew mixed up those numbers with their latest polling of moveon.org
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Frackal
9/11 was a conspiracy and the US/West is at fault for trouble with Islamism? I wonder if Pew mixed up those numbers with their latest polling of moveon.org

Well whatever the reason, we have a VERY bad public image in that area of the world...and we're not doing very much to help the situation. I know it's not our "fault", but it would be fairly easy to take the wind out of bin Laden's sails if we really put our minds to it.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Frackal
9/11 was a conspiracy and the US/West is at fault for trouble with Islamism? I wonder if Pew mixed up those numbers with their latest polling of moveon.org

Well whatever the reason, we have a VERY bad public image in that area of the world...and we're not doing very much to help the situation. I know it's not our "fault", but it would be fairly easy to take the wind out of bin Laden's sails if we really put our minds to it.



$400,000,000,000 spent on bombs and bullets.. and we wonder why our image is not so good?

 

joshw10

Senior member
Feb 16, 2004
806
0
0
Americans 'Still in Denial' About 9/11, Muslim Survey Finds

anyone have the results of that survey?

wait i guess it's the same survey, just published under a different title for the Muslim publications.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,112
930
126
What a fscked up religion. So wrong, in so many ways. I don't understand the attraction, but apparently the following keeps growing, but so do bad diseases.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,787
11,420
136
That's ok. There are still some americans who think Iraq was behind 9/11. Wasn't there a recent poll of the military where a majority believed this?
 

xxxInfidelxxx

Member
Feb 19, 2006
187
1
0
Originally posted by: Pens1566
That's ok. There are still some americans who think Iraq was behind 9/11. Wasn't there a recent poll of the military where a majority believed this?


Why do you hate America and the U.S. military?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Wasn't there a recent poll of the military where a majority believed this?

How about some evidence to back this up. Or are you just spouting hot air?

 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
Lets look at Saddam and 9/11 link in a factual way. Tell me if you think any of these points are wrong.

1. Western countries embargo Iraqi oil to weaken Saddam.
2. people in Iraq suffer food and medicine shortages.

Some people put fact one and fact two together, and blame USA for hunger problem. Among these people are radical Islamists, who blame USA for everything.

1. radical Islamist group, Al keada ataacks USA on 9/11.

Now, here I am in USA, and I get a phone call from Pew research..they ask me is Saddam linked to 9/11 ?

What is correct answer ? looks to me like the 2 things are linked. Not because Saddam had anything to do with attack, as far as I know he didn't. But because one of the reasons we are attacked, is because attackers think we are responsible for starving Iraqi children. It's not the only reason, or even the main reason. But I bet it's a reason.
 

xxxInfidelxxx

Member
Feb 19, 2006
187
1
0
Originally posted by: Tom
Lets look at Saddam and 9/11 link in a factual way. Tell me if you think any of these points are wrong.

1. Western countries embargo Iraqi oil to weaken Saddam.
2. people in Iraq suffer food and medicine shortages.

Some people put fact one and fact two together, and blame USA for hunger problem. Among these people are radical Islamists, who blame USA for everything.

1. radical Islamist group, Al keada ataacks USA on 9/11.

Now, here I am in USA, and I get a phone call from Pew research..they ask me is Saddam linked to 9/11 ?

What is correct answer ? looks to me like the 2 things are linked. Not because Saddam had anything to do with attack, as far as I know he didn't. But because one of the reasons we are attacked, is because attackers think we are responsible for starving Iraqi children. It's not the only reason, or even the main reason. But I bet it's a reason.

The Oil for Food program was designed to, well, fill the coffers of Kofi's son and the French Banks and Saddam's golden palaces...but the USA is to blame.
 

joshw10

Senior member
Feb 16, 2004
806
0
0
Originally posted by: Tom
Lets look at Saddam and 9/11 link in a factual way. Tell me if you think any of these points are wrong.

1. Western countries embargo Iraqi oil to weaken Saddam.
2. people in Iraq suffer food and medicine shortages.

Some people put fact one and fact two together, and blame USA for hunger problem. Among these people are radical Islamists, who blame USA for everything.

1. radical Islamist group, Al keada ataacks USA on 9/11.

Now, here I am in USA, and I get a phone call from Pew research..they ask me is Saddam linked to 9/11 ?

What is correct answer ? looks to me like the 2 things are linked. Not because Saddam had anything to do with attack, as far as I know he didn't. But because one of the reasons we are attacked, is because attackers think we are responsible for starving Iraqi children. It's not the only reason, or even the main reason. But I bet it's a reason.

Those polls were never about that kind of "link"...but about whether Saddam had involvement or aided the planning and/or execution of the 9/11 attacks.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
"Muslims in the Middle East and Asia depicted Westerners as immoral and selfish, while Westerners saw Muslims as fanatical. "

Did everyone ignore this sentence? The westerners are just as guilty.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
"Muslims in the Middle East and Asia depicted Westerners as immoral and selfish, while Westerners saw Muslims as fanatical. "

Did everyone ignore this sentence? The westerners are just as guilty.
That statement is totally correct. Westerners are immoral and selfish, and Muslims are fanatical.

I'd rather be the former than the latter.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
"Muslims in the Middle East and Asia depicted Westerners as immoral and selfish, while Westerners saw Muslims as fanatical. "

Did everyone ignore this sentence? The westerners are just as guilty.
That statement is totally correct. Westerners are immoral and selfish, and Muslims are fanatical.

I'd rather be the former than the latter.


As far as selfishness goes, I can say I've never received any funds from Muslims.

Are there lots of Muslim countries handing out cash to anyone besides other Muslims ?

What did Muslim countries contribute to Tsunami relief, for example ?



 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Tom
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
"Muslims in the Middle East and Asia depicted Westerners as immoral and selfish, while Westerners saw Muslims as fanatical. "

Did everyone ignore this sentence? The westerners are just as guilty.
That statement is totally correct. Westerners are immoral and selfish, and Muslims are fanatical.

I'd rather be the former than the latter.


As far as selfishness goes, I can say I've never received any funds from Muslims.

Are there lots of Muslim countries handing out cash to anyone besides other Muslims ?

What did Muslim countries contribute to Tsunami relief, for example ?
Didn't the Saudi's or some other Oil Rich Shiekdom donate money to the Katrina Disaster relief?

 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
"Muslims in the Middle East and Asia depicted Westerners as immoral and selfish, while Westerners saw Muslims as fanatical. "

Did everyone ignore this sentence? The westerners are just as guilty.
That statement is totally correct. Westerners are immoral and selfish, and Muslims are fanatical.

I'd rather be the former than the latter.
Why be either?
 

6000SUX

Golden Member
May 8, 2005
1,504
0
0
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
"Muslims in the Middle East and Asia depicted Westerners as immoral and selfish, while Westerners saw Muslims as fanatical. "

Did everyone ignore this sentence? The westerners are just as guilty.

Not guilty-- seen as immoral by people who support terrorism. Way to confuse the issue. :cookie:
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Tom
As far as selfishness goes, I can say I've never received any funds from Muslims.

Are there lots of Muslim countries handing out cash to anyone besides other Muslims ?

What did Muslim countries contribute to Tsunami relief, for example ?
Didn't the Saudi's or some other Oil Rich Shiekdom donate money to the Katrina Disaster relief?
According to a list I found, countries offering to help include Afghanistan, Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the UAE, and over 50 others. I don't know how much each offered or what we accepted.

Edit: Kuwait also donated $500 million in "oil products".

Edit 2: Found a better list from Foreign Policy: Ante up for America

Afghanistan: $100K
Bahrain: $5 million
Iran: (offered 20 million barrels of oil ... if U.S. lifted sanctions :roll: )
Iraq: $1 million
Jordan: (not listed)
Kuwait: $100 million + $400 million in oil
Pakistan: $1 million
Qatar: $100 million ("pledged" ?)
Saudi Arabia: $100 million ("pledged" ?) + $250K from Agfund + $5 million via Red Cross
Turkey: $1.5 million ("pledged via Red Cross")
UAE: $100 million
Yemen: $100K ("pledged" ?)
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: alchemize

None of this is really surprising at all, it reflects past polls. I really don't hold out any hope that any of this lunacy will decline, regardless of our actions in Iraq, and I don't think there's any answer. Fundamental Islam is a cancer, and it's very pervasive through the religion.

I wish we had invested a trillion in figuring out alternate energies, then let the lunatics drink their oil and eat their sand.

There is nothing new in this. The Islamic viewpoint always encourages an 'us versus them' attitude. It basically stems from the Quranic teaching to distrust non believers. Even if Muhammed himself awoke from the dead and tried to convince them of otherwise, they would not believe him because it would not fit within their worldview.

The problem also stems from another cause, the falliability of rationality when confronting Islam. They believe in propoganda and are taught never to question it.

Heh, the "us versus them" attitude is certainly not confined to Muslims. I hear it every day from a rather large number of Americans. We're trying to promote democracy and peace within a large Muslim country in the Middle East while making it clear that a lot of us think they are all a bunch of comrade terrorists. Not exactly a winning combination if you ask me.


Yeah, but isn't this more because of 9/11? Islam was and is the fastest growing religion in the world and I would think this is because the west is more open and has a less "us versus them" attitude.

When I was young, I saw an interview with a Quaker who gave the following reason for asking an exemption from going to war, "My religion forbids me to kill".

Years later when we were gearing up for the Afghan war, my local news channel interviewed some Muslim students in George Washington University about their feelings. The news reporter then asked, "There has been talks of a draft -- you're of age -- how would you feel if there is a draft?" and the Muslim student replied, "I don't know. I would have a problem going over there and having to kill innocent Muslims".

And then I thought, "Why use the term Muslim and not just people?"

I really do feel that Muslims have a more "us" attitude than other people. Whenever you have conflicts between Muslims and non-Muslims in other countries, you always see Muslims of other countries streaming in. In Thailand, you have jihiadists from Saudi Arabia etc. becoming involved. Same with Russia, China, Philippines, Afghanistan, etc.

But I have never heard of this happening in other rellgions. I have never seen a Philippino Catholic saying, "I want to go to Ireland and wage "crusade" against the Protastants and help my fellow Catholics". Maybe this happens a lot but I just never knew it.