Mushkin follows OCZ into the PSU game

[jonnyGURU]

Luckyboy lost me at "cap noise." 🙂

I'm sure he meant coil or transformer noise, but whatever.

Facts are facts. Luckyboy lacks them.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Luckyboy lost me at "cap noise." 🙂

I'm sure he meant coil or transformer noise, but whatever.

Facts are facts. Luckyboy lacks them.

Didn't you know dielectrics make noise when you pass a current through them?

 

[Operandi]

Nice posts jonnyGURU. :beer:

 

[TrevorRC]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
2) The OCZ PowerStream models are warranted better.

3) The idea that OCZ simply calls a company and tells them to repackage a product and send it out without having their own EE's dictate exactly what OCZ wants is nonsense. What, are you trying to say that OCZ simply goes on faith?

Amigo, do you have any idea how manufacturing works in general, let alone PSU/Computer mfg?

Starts off with a company. They:
A) Draw up a CAD/Solidworks file for a part they want made.
B) Send out a RFQ saying "We want the specs to be this: Make it for us."

The manufacturer makes it, sends it to them.

From there, the company dolls it up, does whatever they'd like to it...

That's the difference between OEMs and Retail PSUs.

Example:
OEM Enhance 600W PSU is the EXACT same PSU as the Silverstone 600W PSU--the Silverstone version just has a shinier finish on it and a logo.

They'll dictate what they want, but whether or not they test it themselves and everything else is completely open for discussion.

Now, if a large amount of units started failing the OEM would have hell to pay... but otherwise, probably not.

Take your fanboyism elsewhere.


Also... his power supply brand of choice [Zippy] usually comes along with a 3 year warranty, but last roughly 10 years. 🙂


Meaning... warranty isn't all that important, quality of construction is.

You get lemon cars warrantied for the same length as perfect ones. Which would you rather have?


Just though I'd point that out. He's reminded me of that fact numerous times. 😉

--Trevor

Also Johnny, :beer: a toast to you. I've read quite a few of your posts; but never actually participated in the same thread as you 😉 Quite a fan of the site.

 

[MDE]

I talked to my Mushkin contact and got this info from him:

Me: just wondering, who's the OEM for mushkin's PSUs?
Mushkin Guy: toppower
Mushkin Guy: custom spec
Mushkin Guy: much better voltage reg
Mushkin Guy: we have consultant redesign vreg on 3.3 and 12v rails
Mushkin Guy: practially no ripple
Mushkin Guy: among best in class 😉
Me: so you'd say they're worth the extra money over a generic toppower?
Mushkin Guy: yeah
Mushkin Guy: it's like
Mushkin Guy: erm stock cobalt to the supercharged and then modified further cobalt 😉
Mushkin Guy: I mean reg toppower better than alot of PS
Mushkin Guy: but these are much much better

EDIT: I copied and pasted our Xfire convo pretty much word-for-word. The names were changed because I felt like it 😛.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: MDE
I talked to my Mushkin contact and got this info from him:

Me: just wondering, who's the OEM for mushkin's PSUs?
Mushkin Guy: toppower
Mushkin Guy: custom spec
Mushkin Guy: much better voltage reg
Mushkin Guy: we have consultant redesign vreg on 3.3 and 12v rails
Mushkin Guy: practially no ripple
Mushkin Guy: among best in class 😉
Me: so you'd say they're worth the extra money over a generic toppower?
Mushkin Guy: yeah
Mushkin Guy: it's like
Mushkin Guy: erm stock cobalt to the supercharged and then modified further cobalt 😉
Mushkin Guy: I mean reg toppower better than alot of PS
Mushkin Guy: but these are much much better

EDIT: I copied and pasted our Xfire convo pretty much word-for-word. The names were changed because I felt like it 😛.

I seriously doubt your conversation...
becuase I have called 1/2 dozen PSU manufacturers and NOT ONE would divulge who made the PSU.......hmmmm

 

[MDE]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: MDE
I talked to my Mushkin contact and got this info from him:

Me: just wondering, who's the OEM for mushkin's PSUs?
Mushkin Guy: toppower
Mushkin Guy: custom spec
Mushkin Guy: much better voltage reg
Mushkin Guy: we have consultant redesign vreg on 3.3 and 12v rails
Mushkin Guy: practially no ripple
Mushkin Guy: among best in class 😉
Me: so you'd say they're worth the extra money over a generic toppower?
Mushkin Guy: yeah
Mushkin Guy: it's like
Mushkin Guy: erm stock cobalt to the supercharged and then modified further cobalt 😉
Mushkin Guy: I mean reg toppower better than alot of PS
Mushkin Guy: but these are much much better

EDIT: I copied and pasted our Xfire convo pretty much word-for-word. The names were changed because I felt like it 😛.

I seriously doubt your conversation...
becuase I have called 1/2 dozen PSU manufacturers and NOT ONE would divulge who made the PSU.......hmmmm

Doubt all you want, I have no reason to jump into this thread and make that up. I've got a 1GB kit of Mushkin XP4400 from this guy that I didn't pay for (search for my RAM posts, I recommend value RAM all the way) and would never pay for because he had it laying around.

EDIT: This isn't some customer service lackey, either. He's got no reason to BS me.

 

[Howard]

Maybe he's just exceedingly enthusiastic about the new PSUs?

 

[jonnyGURU]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

I seriously doubt your conversation...
becuase I have called 1/2 dozen PSU manufacturers and NOT ONE would divulge who made the PSU.......hmmmm

That's not altogether true. It depends on who you talk to. Some people inside are smart enough to not assume that a person (like MDE) is so naive that Mushkin all of the sudden fired up a power supply factory.

And kudos to Mushkin if this is true. The better regulation explains the lower combined wattage claims. It's so obvious, I'm mad at myself for not thinking of it first. True independent regulation, minimal rectification and exacting regulation. It might not even do 650W under load, but who cares? Who really needs 650W?

$200? Still, no. 😀

 

[Luckyboy1]

Who really needs 650W?


Well, you'd have to define the word "need" as it fits your application. The truth is many of the heating problems people are running into with the more powerfull video cards has its roots in the fact that most power supplies simply are not up to running them, especially on the 12 volt side of life. If a given power supply can't deliver the needed wattage to run a component at 12 volts, it will try to make up that wattage in amps and that means more heat.

The truth is, from a complete answer standpoint, my 520 watt OCZ PowerStream is just barely adequate and that's not "best". Is it good enough?... well, that would depend on how you define "good enough". The way I define it is that if you've attended to total case cooling and you still are running on the hot side with any components, it's time to look to a more powerfull power supply.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
Who really needs 650W?


Well, you'd have to define the word "need" as it fits your application. The truth is many of the heating problems people are running into with the more powerfull video cards has its roots in the fact that most power supplies simply are not up to running them, especially on the 12 volt side of life. If a given power supply can't deliver the needed wattage to run a component at 12 volts, it will try to make up that wattage in amps and that means more heat.

... I'm sorry? Power supplies deliver wattage at a fixed voltage(s), AFAIK. Or are you trying to say that voltage necessarily goes up once a power supply hits its limit?

 

[jonnyGURU]

:Q :Q :Q

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
Who really needs 650W?


Well, you'd have to define the word "need" as it fits your application. The truth is many of the heating problems people are running into with the more powerfull video cards has its roots in the fact that most power supplies simply are not up to running them, especially on the 12 volt side of life. If a given power supply can't deliver the needed wattage to run a component at 12 volts, it will try to make up that wattage in amps and that means more heat.

The truth is, from a complete answer standpoint, my 520 watt OCZ PowerStream is just barely adequate and that's not "best". Is it good enough?... well, that would depend on how you define "good enough". The way I define it is that if you've attended to total case cooling and you still are running on the hot side with any components, it's time to look to a more powerfull power supply.

Lucky something just is not right about the above statement.

You would think that if a Video card was having a heat issue that it would have nothing to do with the power supply not being able deliver enough power.

heres why I say this....
Correct me if I am wrong....
You need a certain amount of power to run a Video card.
If you are not getting that power your video card will not work properly correct?

Then how is NOT getting enough power to the video card going to increase the temps of the video card........sounds confusing to me!!

Use to be iether the card worked or it didn`t. I never knew you could under volt a video card....

 

[jonnyGURU]

Maybe he's talking about how a power supply drops in efficiency when the amperage is greater? And/or a drop in voltage because a load is to great, the load would have to be greater to compensate in order to produce the same wattage thus creating an exponential drop in performance?

Either way, you're drawing the conclusion that the OCZ Power Stream is a superior product with no room for improvement. That is so far from the truth it's mind blowing.

I'm not talking about an OCZ 520ADJ. I'm talking about a premium power supply with better efficiency (80%+) and independent voltage regulation that is capable of maintaining it's voltages. Furthermore, if the power supply did not "waste" some of it's wattage claims on 3.3V and 5V rails that don't need to be 30A, 40A or 50A, then you wouldn't have 200W of unnecessary capability sitting in your power supply.

If you had a power supply that was "perfect" in this sense, you could get by with a mere 300W power supply even if you're running a dual GPU rig.

 

[Luckyboy1]

For beginners, let's start over a bit. Ohm's Law says...

Amps X Voltage = Watts of power.

Many things electrical and electronic will run on a range of voltages. If this is not the case, why do we even bother watching voltages or are concerned with it dropping any? I've seen video card run on anything from 10-14 volts. Did they run cool and well this way? No, but they worked. Again, as the power supply reaches the maximum amount of power it can produce on a given rail, the voltage starts to sag. As it does, the components demand no less wattage to run, so they try to a degree to get the shortfall in voltage made up in amperage and that means more heat.

This is why I ask people who say their power supply might be garbage to download and run under load of heavy applications something like Mommaboard Monitor that can keep track of high, lows and averages in voltages and temps. If the person's voltages are not sagging under load, I become less suspicious of the power supply. If the voltages sag by multimeter readings, the I ask them to confirm by multimeter their findings. This way, no probe or software or bios error can cause a false reading. If the voltages are fine by multimeter and don't sag, then I say stick with that power supply and look for some other cause for whatever problems they may be having. If by multimeter the voltages still show some saging under load of an application, then I say ditch the power supply for something more powerfull.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
For beginners, let's start over a bit. Ohm's Law says...

Amps X Voltage = Watts of power.

Many things electrical and electronic will run on a range of voltages. If this is not the case, why do we even bother watching voltages or are concerned with it dropping any? I've seen video card run on anything from 10-14 volts. Did they run cool and well this way? No, but they worked. Again, as the power supply reaches the maximum amount of power it can produce on a given rail, the voltage starts to sag. As it does, the components demand no less wattage to run, so they try to a degree to get the shortfall in voltage made up in amperage and that means more heat.

This is why I ask people who say their power supply might be garbage to download and run under load of heavy applications something like Mommaboard Monitor that can keep track of high, lows and averages in voltages and temps. If the person's voltages are not sagging under load, I become less suspicious of the power supply. If the voltages sag by multimeter readings, the I ask them to confirm by multimeter their findings. This way, no probe or software or bios error can cause a false reading. If the voltages are fine by multimeter and don't sag, then I say stick with that power supply and look for some other cause for whatever problems they may be having. If by multimeter the voltages still show some saging under load of an application, then I say ditch the power supply for something more powerfull.

What
The
Hell

As power draw increases, the voltage doesn't mysteriously sag. I gets gradually less efficient.

I've seen video card run on anything from 10-14 volts. Did they run cool and well this way?

Ok, umm and how in the hell do you know what the Video Card is drawing in volts from the powersupply. Obviously you looked up your formula on the internet and have no understanding of what it means.

There are other components which draw power from the 12V Rail in a computer. Not only that, if it were running on less power why would the heat output increase?? You are effectively undervolting your video card. So unless the fan isn't able to run anymore, then it should be running cool, just not entirely stable since all the various components on the Video Card are not receiving the necessary power.

Before you reply back to any of our comments, PLEASE think about what you are typing.

-Kevin

Edit: And just for sh!ts and giggles:

the default setup has ?Application Preference? set. What this means is that no matter how you set up the quality levels, the game
(in this case, IL-2 FB) or application will choose what it thinks is the best setting. Most people wish to have their settings stick, so in the ATI driver control panel, you will want to uncheck the ?Application Preference? box.

That is MOST DEFINITELY FALSE!!! Application preference merely means that the driver uses whatever you specify in game. The game/drivers dont choose for you!!

Edit 2: I seriously wish i hadn't started reading this but:

no, your Soundblaster live card is not one of them, so get to lowering the hardware acceleration for sound

That is also false. The Soundblast live cards use the EMU10K1 APU. Audio processing if offloaded from the CPU to the EMU chip. NOt as effective as the Soundstorm APU or the other Soundblaster cards (Which still use EMU chip, except IIRC the X-Fi).

Edit 3: Having just wasted a lot of time reading, there are quite a bit more erros in that "guide" of yours. I dont have the time to address anymore.

 

[jonnyGURU]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
For beginners, let's start over a bit. Ohm's Law says...

Amps X Voltage = Watts of power.

Lucky needs to stop while he's..... whatever.....

Ohm's law is not A * V = W.

Ohm's law is a law of resistance:

R * A = V.

Edited for... the hell of it....

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1Many things electrical and electronic will run on a range of voltages.

Correct.

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1If this is not the case, why do we even bother watching voltages or are concerned with it dropping any? I've seen video card run on anything from 10-14 volts. Did they run cool and well this way? No, but they worked. Again, as the power supply reaches the maximum amount of power it can produce on a given rail, the voltage starts to sag. As it does, the components demand no less wattage to run, so they try to a degree to get the shortfall in voltage made up in amperage and that means more heat.

Voltages on a POORLY REGULATED POWER SUPPLY will sag, but spec is 5% and most power supplies are only rated to operate within spec. And typically peripheral cease to function properly if voltage is considerably below spec. Why? If voltage drops, the peripheral is not going to pull more amperage to compensate for the loss in wattage. The voltage is sagging BECAUSE there is an increase of amperage and then the peripheral stops functioning properly because it's not getting the wattage (V * A = W) that it needs!!!!!

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1This is why I ask people who say their power supply might be garbage to download and run under load of heavy applications something like Mommaboard Monitor that can keep track of high, lows and averages in voltages and temps. If the person's voltages are not sagging under load, I become less suspicious of the power supply. If the voltages sag by multimeter readings, the I ask them to confirm by multimeter their findings. This way, no probe or software or bios error can cause a false reading. If the voltages are fine by multimeter and don't sag, then I say stick with that power supply and look for some other cause for whatever problems they may be having. If by multimeter the voltages still show some saging under load of an application, then I say ditch the power supply for something more powerfull.

Do you tell them to whip out an O-scope as well? What's the fluctuation of the voltage? It might be 12V on a DMM, but it could be bouncing from 11 to 13V if you were to look at it on an O-scope. What kind of noise and ripple do you have on that rail? Typically not that great at that high of a load.

 

[TrevorRC]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
For beginners, let's start over a bit. Ohm's Law says...

Amps X Voltage = Watts of power.

Many things electrical and electronic will run on a range of voltages. If this is not the case, why do we even bother watching voltages or are concerned with it dropping any? I've seen video card run on anything from 10-14 volts. Did they run cool and well this way? No, but they worked. Again, as the power supply reaches the maximum amount of power it can produce on a given rail, the voltage starts to sag. As it does, the components demand no less wattage to run, so they try to a degree to get the shortfall in voltage made up in amperage and that means more heat.

This is why I ask people who say their power supply might be garbage to download and run under load of heavy applications something like Mommaboard Monitor that can keep track of high, lows and averages in voltages and temps. If the person's voltages are not sagging under load, I become less suspicious of the power supply. If the voltages sag by multimeter readings, the I ask them to confirm by multimeter their findings. This way, no probe or software or bios error can cause a false reading. If the voltages are fine by multimeter and don't sag, then I say stick with that power supply and look for some other cause for whatever problems they may be having. If by multimeter the voltages still show some saging under load of an application, then I say ditch the power supply for something more powerfull.

Onboard volt sensors blow.
End of story.

Mine told me I was 'perfect'.

Used a DMM... they sucked.

The reverse happens quite often, too.
--Trevor

 

[Bobthelost]

Luckyboy1: You're getting confused, internal resistance is why you get a voltage drop off when you increase the current draw in a battery. SMPS systems shouldn't tend to fail in the same manner, ie when you draw too much power it overheats the components or the PSU goes discontinuos, which will generate a fluctuating voltage between the design voltage and 0V depending on different factors.

PSUs use buck systems don't they? Any online diagrams of a comercial model, all i have are my lecture notes.

 

[Luckyboy1]

As power draw increases, the voltage doesn't mysteriously sag. I gets gradually less efficient. ...

Less effifient? And where did I use the word Mysteryous?

Ok, umm and how in the hell do you know what the Video Card is drawing in volts from the powersupply. Obviously you looked up your formula on the internet and have no understanding of what it means....

No, it's called a voltmeter hooked up to the 4 pin Molex connector between the yellow 12 volt lead and the black lead used for its ground. Are you stoned or just that stupid?

Not only that, if it were running on less power why would the heat output increase??

I never said anything about less power dummy! Power is in watts! I was talking about how the component needs a certain amount of POWER... that's in watts DUMMY! Volts X Amps = Watts! So, if the voltage gets lower and the card needs a certain amount of power, it will try to get it in amps instead. Come on, you guys really aren't this dumb? You guys from the website CWOS?

Before you reply back to any of our comments, PLEASE think about what you are typing...

You'll want to practice before you preach on that one.

About the Ohm's Law thing... Yes, the formula V X A = Watt's is simply an extension and based on Ohm's Law of V = IR

A bit of voltage ripple here and there needs no pulling out of a scope. A simple multimeter will do nicely here.

when you draw too much power it overheats the components...

You make my point for me! The components include the video card, the CPU and anything else that might heat up!


Come on, you guys can't be this dumb!

 

[Bobthelost]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
I never said anything about less power dummy! Power is in watts! I was talking about how the component needs a certain amount of POWER... that's in watts DUMMY! Volts X Amps = Watts! So, if the voltage gets lower and the card needs a certain amount of power, it will try to get it in amps instead. Come on, you guys really aren't this dumb? You guys from the website CWOS?

You are a jibbering idiot with less analytical ability than five monkeys behind keyboards.

The chips require a certain voltage to drive a certain current. If the voltage drops so does the current. Components do not get to mix and match what current and what voltage it is running on.

If it were being powered by a battery type source with only internal resistance to worry about then at 12V the current that is being drawn would be too much, causing some of the voltage to be lost across the internal resistance of the power source. As such the voltage would drop off, if it dropped too far then the chips would stop working at the correct timings, and crash. I don't know how a SMPS would fail when overstressed, most PSU deaths you hear about are when a component fails catestrophically rather than overstressed where it just doesn't work at all.

Just because E=MC^2 it does not mean you can throw your sandwich into a powerplant and use it to light the country for a day.

 

[Luckyboy1]

The chips require a certain voltage to drive a certain current. If the voltage drops so does the current. Components do not get to mix and match what current and what voltage it is running on....


Garbage, they can and do to a degree use a range of voltages from let's see, the 5% spec everyone is so fond of using as a standard makes for a range of values from 11.4 to 12.6 on the 12 volt rail and we've all seen posts where someone has commented their video card is running on less or more than those values by multimeter. What a component can't do is go without a certain wattage regardless. Again, if it can't get it from the volts, it will try and draw more amps.

Are you trying to say that by some elfin majic that the cards will run on less wattage?

 

[Bobthelost]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
The chips require a certain voltage to drive a certain current. If the voltage drops so does the current. Components do not get to mix and match what current and what voltage it is running on....


Garbage, they can and do to a degree use a range of voltages from let's see, the 5% spec everyone is so fond of using as a standard makes for a range of values from 11.4 to 12.6 on the 12 volt rail and we've all seen posts where someone has commented their video card is running on less or more than those values by multimeter. What a component can't do is go without a certain wattage regardless. Again, if it can't get it from the volts, it will try and draw more amps.

If you decrease the voltage then the switching speed of the diodes decreases, this may result in the videocard artifacting or just a full blown crash. Of course if the switching speeds don't decrease that much then it won't be a problem. As to the 5% rating, they are specified to work with a 5% variation, in engineering terms that means they will work with higher variation, but that they will manage 5% or more.

You don't know that much about this, but it's not too late to learn.

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
Are you trying to say that by some elfin majic that the cards will run on less wattage?

You can undervolt CPUs, why do you think you can't do it for other parts?

 

[Luckyboy1]

You can undervolt CPUs, why do you think you can't do it for other parts?...

I think I just said you could do that. Didn't I just say people report stuff running on a whole range of values even beyond the 5% spec everyone tends to point to?

 

[Bobthelost]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
You can undervolt CPUs, why do you think you can't do it for other parts?...

I think I just said you could do that. Didn't I just say people report stuff running on a whole range of values even beyond the 5% spec everyone tends to point to?

If you undervolt something then it draws less power, less watts. Unlike what you said:

if the voltage gets lower and the card needs a certain amount of power, it will try to get it in amps instead.

Which is just flat out wrong.