Much Ado About Not Much

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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(From my blog.)


For weeks after Newtown, liberals said the government needed to “do something”, and conservatives were on the defensive. At one point, President Obama talked about using the power of the executive branch to make changes, and then conservatives went from being merely defensive to utterly freaking out. The calls of “dictator” and “overreach” and “molon labe” etc. grew to a crescendo as gun owners jumped to conclusions about this representing their worst fears coming to pass.


I never bought any of this hysteria, of course. But even given that, I was surprised when I saw Obama’s list of proposed changes. My initial reaction was: “that’s it?” Most of the measures, at first glance, struck me as either impractical or just mom-and-apple-pie pablum. But I figured I’d wait a couple of days and then go through the list point by point and try to see what’s really what here.


Here are Obama’s 23 executive orders and my comments, for what they are worth.
1. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.
A bit too vague to assess. In general, I think information sharing to improve the background check system is a good idea.
2. Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.
Okay, good idea, but I doubt it will have much impact on gun violence.
3. Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system.
Not likely to have much impact, nor to be terribly effective. “Incentives” also usually implies a carrot but ends up being more of a stick. This will be resisted heavily.
4. Direct the Attorney General to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.
Another item that nobody would really disagree with, but is too vague to properly assess. What “dangerous people” are being discussed here, and what cracks are they slipping through?
5. Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.
Fine, but how often does this even happen? My guess is pretty rarely.
6. Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.
This is a good idea, but frankly, FFLs shouldn’t be getting licenses at all if they don’t already know this. It’s basically an admission that the background check system is failing.
7. Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.
This is one of the better ideas here. Cheap, effective, and mostly non-controversial. Should cut down on accidental deaths and cost pretty much nothing.
8. Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).
Feel-good provision that will have little impact on anything, IMO.
9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.
You mean they don’t already?
10. Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement.
More efforts to deal with stolen guns are required. I know someone who thought he had a gun stolen, and tried to inform the state police. They basically told him “not to worry about it”.
11. Nominate an ATF director.
Well, yes.
icon_smile.gif

12. Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations.
Can’t disagree here.
13. Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.
Meaningless pablum.
14. Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.
This is going to be pretty controversial, and if I’m not mistaken, would come into direct conflict with a congressional prohibition on same. Expect this to end up in court.
15. Direct the Attorney General to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies.
I’m in favor, but this will be heavily opposed, not just for the usual reasons, but because these technologies often make firearms less accessible or effective when they are needed.
16. Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.
I don’t think doctors should be asking patients about guns in their homes. Either way, this is not going to have much impact on anything.
17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.
Seems reasonable, but again, I would think they know that already. Some of these measures seem more about padding the count than anything substantive.
18. Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.
What does that even mean?
19. Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.
Good idea.
20. Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.
Again a good idea, but strikes me as not going nearly far enough to address the massive mental health issues in this country.
21. Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges.
Beyond some of the other measures that won’t really curb gun violence, this seems pretty irrelevant.
22. Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations.
Maybe I just don’t know enough about the ACA, but again, this seems exceedingly vague.
23. Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health.
Ah, a “national dialog”. Who could possibly oppose that?


In the end, my initial impressions were confirmed: there is not much here. I don’t think this shows that Obama doesn’t care about gun control, nor that he wouldn’t like to do more. I think it demonstrates two facts: first, that there isn’t actually that much he can legally about gun control using executive orders; and second, he’s nowhere near the “dictator” or “power grabber” that right-wing mouth-foamers portrayed him to be.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
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i agree. all (but 16) are things i agree with. unless more information comes out they are good.

16 though bugs me. it's not my doctors business if i have guns in the house. And what is the point anyway?

heh my kids doctor is pro-gun anyway. We have talked hunting often and does ask when i'm going to get my daughter hunting (she has gone small game hunting already).
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,973
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i agree. all (but 16) are things i agree with. unless more information comes out they are good.

16 though bugs me. it's not my doctors business if i have guns in the house. And what is the point anyway?

heh my kids doctor is pro-gun anyway. We have talked hunting often and does ask when i'm going to get my daughter hunting (she has gone small game hunting already).

They ask because a lot of people don't take adequate safety precautions with kids in the house. So if you day yes they can provide you with info. You are of course free to say 'none of your business.

It seems like people were so worked up and prepared to be outraged that they didn't quite know what to do when there wasn't something to be outraged about. So... Default to outrage.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
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It's funny how he seems to be acting within the purview of his office and not doing a significant overreach.

Now let's see if Congress does anything at all before the next major shooting.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
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It's funny how he seems to be acting within the purview of his office and not doing a significant overreach.

Now let's see if Congress does anything at all before the next major shooting.




I don't think Congress can do much about the mental health problems in this country that quickly.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
It's funny how he seems to be acting within the purview of his office and not doing a significant overreach.

Now let's see if Congress does anything at all before the next major shooting.

LOL they can't do jack shit. in fact NOBODY can and no amount of laws will stop it.

As a nation we need to take Mental health seriously. instead of dumping them on the street and forgetting about them (well trying to).

i like that he put in better background checks. I have no problem with his suggestions (well all but the one i mentioned).
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
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It's all a bunch of horse shit. How many of the shooters in the recent mass shootings would even qualify as metally ill? And the big question is what can we really do about it? Are we going to start ramdomly testing people or start lock up every person we deem to be metally ill?

This is all crap designed to make politicians look like they care and are doing something but none of it will do a damn but of good.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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Well, some of it will do some good. Some of it is window dressing.

But by far the biggest pile of "horse shit" was that crapped out by the right-wingers who jumped to conclusions about Obama's executive orders that, predictably, turned out to be hysterical nonsense.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
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It's all a bunch of horse shit. How many of the shooters in the recent mass shootings would even qualify as metally ill? And the big question is what can we really do about it? Are we going to start ramdomly testing people or start lock up every person we deem to be metally ill?

This is all crap designed to make politicians look like they care and are doing something but none of it will do a damn but of good.



I don't know, but the Joker in Aurora qualified. Hell the guy who shot Reagan is still in a mental hospital and the kid in Connecticut was insano. I'm sure someone else here has a full breakdown on the last few shootings and these fuckers are bonafied nuts. Many diagnosed as nuts too.

I would like to see more research and restrictions in giving little kids mind altering drugs to control behavior. Logic is just telling me that can't be good long term for developing brains. We really over prescribe drugs in this country to include antibiotics and we're creating a ton of troubles for ourselves in the years to come.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
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Well, some of it will do some good. Some of it is window dressing.

But by far the biggest pile of "horse shit" was that crapped out by the right-wingers who jumped to conclusions about Obama's executive orders that, predictably, turned out to be hysterical nonsense.




You can't wait for something to happen before trying to mount political opposition. By then it's too late. Look at the crap in the Patriot Act and we can't get rid of it for anything. Hell, it's expanding. If you give the government an inch they take everything. Look at all the warrantless GPS tracking and phone tracking going on now. Even after the Supreme Court said that shit was illegal the Feds are trying to skirt the ruling to keep doing it.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
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Well, some of it will do some good. Some of it is window dressing.

But by far the biggest pile of "horse shit" was that crapped out by the right-wingers who jumped to conclusions about Obama's executive orders that, predictably, turned out to be hysterical nonsense.
So you're saying if Obama could have legally pushed through a ban by EO he wouldn't have? Or are you just saying that many didn't know how far he could go and just assumed the worst, which if possible would be exactly what he would have done?
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
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I don't know, but the Joker in Aurora qualified. Hell the guy who shot Reagan is still in a mental hospital and the kid in Connecticut was insano. I'm sure someone else here has a full breakdown on the last few shootings and these fuckers are bonafied nuts. Many diagnosed as nuts too.

I would like to see more research and restrictions in giving little kids mind altering drugs to control behavior. Logic is just telling me that can't be good long term for developing brains. We really over prescribe drugs in this country to include antibiotics and we're creating a ton of troubles for ourselves in the years to come.

How many of them were diagnosed as nuts pre-incident and how many would we have locked up?
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
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The daily show did a great job of highlighting how the NRA, neutered the ATF.

Some of the EOs seem to address that neutering. Which is a good thing.

The RW hyperbole surrounding the issue is pure fucking insanity.

Worse is we get to see the machine in action, it's effective and people are stupid, that's sad.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
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How many of them were diagnosed as nuts pre-incident and how many would we have locked up?

Sounds like a national program that covers mental health might be helpful... assuming that mental health issues could be de-stigmatized so folks would be less ashamed about getting checked out and maybe getting some help.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
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The daily show did a great job of highlighting how the NRA, neutered the ATF.

Some of the EOs seem to address that neutering. Which is a good thing.
The Daily Show is a joke, literally...and the ATF is far from neutered
The RW hyperbole surrounding the issue is pure fucking insanity
So are you saying you knew for a fact that there was no way Obama could have done an EO for a ban? No chance at all? 100% sure? Somehow I doubt that...
Worse is we get to see the machine in action, it's effective and people are stupid, that's sad.
This has to be about the shit they just passed in NY and I completely agree, the propaganda machine in action and the laws stupid people push through without review is sad:'( Funny that they rammed it through so quick they didn't even think about exempting police, fucking morons:D
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,072
1,476
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The daily show did a great job of highlighting how the NRA, neutered the ATF.

Some of the EOs seem to address that neutering. Which is a good thing.

The RW hyperbole surrounding the issue is pure fucking insanity.

Worse is we get to see the machine in action, it's effective and people are stupid, that's sad.

Here's the Daily Show clip that went over it. It's sickening to think that thanks to laws put in place by the GOP thanks to NRA influence make it almost impossible for the ATF to enforce any gun laws or even prosecute those who break them.
Daily Show clip.

Edit: Let's see if this link works better.
 
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corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
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Here's the Daily Show clip that went over it. It's sickening to think that thanks to laws put in place by the GOP thanks to NRA influence make it almost impossible for the ATF to enforce any gun laws or even prosecute those who break them.
Daily Show clip.

You getting your "news" from the Daily Show is laughable...buggering up the link is just down right hilarious:D
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,072
1,476
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You getting your "news" from the Daily Show is laughable...buggering up the link is just down right hilarious:D

Actually I didn't screw up the link, there must be a filter of some sort on Anandtech that prevents it. That same link embedded fine on facebook. And while the Daily Show is a comedy program, they actually cite their sources on the air and will play video clips showing people contradicting themselves. They intend to be comedic, unlike conservative media which intends to be false and get people to believe lies.
 
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lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
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The Daily Show is a joke, literally...and the ATF is far from neutered

So are you saying you knew for a fact that there was no way Obama could have done an EO for a ban? No chance at all? 100% sure? Somehow I doubt that...

This has to be about the shit they just passed in NY and I completely agree, the propaganda machine in action and the laws stupid people push through without review is sad:'( Funny that they rammed it through so quick they didn't even think about exempting police, fucking morons:D

I know I find it sad I get better information from a comedy show than Mass Media. I suggest you watch it then discuss it, ATF in large part is neutered, Indisputable fact.

Yes I know for a fact Obama could not have banned guns without congress. I have read a lot on the issue, which is why as a gun owner, I didn't put any stock into the outrage.


http://protectpolice.org/facts
 
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monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
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Well, some of it will do some good. Some of it is window dressing.

But by far the biggest pile of "horse shit" was that crapped out by the right-wingers who jumped to conclusions about Obama's executive orders that, predictably, turned out to be hysterical nonsense.

Not really, you seem to forget that Vice-President Biden came out and very publicly announced that Obama was going to take some type of mysterious action with executive orders days ahead of Obama's announcement.
http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...pared-to-take-executive-action-on-gun-control

You can hardly blame pro-gun groups for reacting to the threat even when no particulars were mentioned.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,973
47,880
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Not really, you seem to forget that Vice-President Biden came out and very publicly announced that Obama was going to take some type of mysterious action with executive orders days ahead of Obama's announcement.
http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...pared-to-take-executive-action-on-gun-control

You can hardly blame pro-gun groups for reacting to the threat even when no particulars were mentioned.

You can totally blame them for unfounded hysteria. Hell, i still remember the NRA saying that a first term Obama presidency would be disastrous for gun rights. Then when nothing happened they said it was because he was trying to fool everyone so that he could steal all your guns in his second term.

These people are paranoid lunatics.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,072
1,476
126
Not really, you seem to forget that Vice-President Biden came out and very publicly announced that Obama was going to take some type of mysterious action with executive orders days ahead of Obama's announcement.
http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...pared-to-take-executive-action-on-gun-control

You can hardly blame pro-gun groups for reacting to the threat even when no particulars were mentioned.

We can very much blame. This hysterical assuming the worst and jumping to the most insane conclusions is just as bad as 9/11 truthers, birthers, and everything Anarchist or Incorruptible posts. The sane ones didn't overreact. It wasn't "pro-gun groups" that went crazy. It was gun nuts. That's the only appropriate phrase for it. Gun nuts.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
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I know I find it sad I get better information from a comedy show than Mass Media. I suggest you watch it then discuss it, ATF in large part is neutered, Indisputable fact.

Yes I know for a fact Obama could not have banned guns without congress. I have read a lot on the issue, which is why as a gun owner, I didn't put any stock into the outrage.


http://protectpolice.org/facts

Yeah that's not neutered...nor is that site anything less than propaganda for gun control. While the law may have drawbacks it was drafted to prevent a national "registry" of gun owners, which is a good thing. That it has in a few cases hampered law enforcement is sad but hardly can any rational person say it's neutered the ATF.

And I highly doubt you're versed enough to know he wouldn't try an EO for the AWB or at least the magazine limit...but I'll accept that you were certain he couldn't legally do it, doesn't mean he might not have tried;)