MTA paying 6 figure salaries to 8000 people.

[Bowfinger]

Answer the questiuon, rather than attack.

-John

Piss off. There was no "questiuon" [sic] to answer, just more noise from a clueless nutter desperately dodging the fact that he's been owned about fifty different ways in this thread. Clown on, my child, clown on.

 

[Zorkorist]

You piss off.

-John

 

[Hacp]

More mindless parroting of the nutter propaganda with no clue what you're talking about. Unlike you, I've worked in both the public and private sector.

There is tremendous budget pressure within most government agencies. That's not to say there isn't waste in government. Of course there is. It's an inevitable byproduct of fallible and selfish people coupled with the poor accountability within larger organizations. If you want to see truly epic waste, however, spend time in a few Fortune 500 corporations. I've seen literally tens of millions of dollars at a time pissed away because some executive wanted to save face after a bad decision, or was trying to impress the new salesrep with the great rack. I know this doesn't match your indoctrination, but money is much easier to come by in large corporations.

(Small businesses usually don't suffer from this problem, at least not for long. You're correct for small businesses; they will fail if they aren't fairly efficient. Large corporations are an entirely different animal.)

Of course there is budget pressure. Thats cause most of the budget(60%) goes to paying union salaries and pensions, while 40% is left for taxpayer services.

 

[Pulsar]

Its funny how you deny video evidence of census workers blatantly clocking in hours they didn't work. Government efficiency at its finest.

Way to go. When challenged, randomly change your argument to a new one. Now that you've been shot down factually on your initial arguments you jump to new ones. Classic.

$100K isn't insane or outrageous. I'm going to have to agree that you've never worked a professional job in your life. Yet. I know college grads who hire in as engineers and have 1/10th this guy's responsibility who make loads more. Of course, you still think this guy is a lazy good-for-nothing union loser who clocks in when he isn't working and makes overtime he doesn't deserve.

Another point in fact: unions aren't this giant evil conglomerate. Hey, I said they were too when I was 16. Before I knew the facts. Before I watched what companies will do to make a buck if left unchecked. Unions are the balance to corporate greed. Sometimes they go to far. Sometimes they don't.

The UAW is a perfect example. These guys have given HUGE consessions to help their companies. HUGE. However, that would not have been needed if these companies had actually managed themselves even halfway decently. I should know - I'm a salaried worker at one of them. For instance - the hire in rate is under $14/hour here. It isn't easy, or simple, work. You need a working grasp of statistical analysis (x-bar R charts, running averages, etc), a working grasp of basic mechanics (since operators are now expected to troubleshoot their own machines), and the ability to work on any shift without a choice, since you can get moved around at a manager's whim.

Not something your average burger flipper could pull off...... yet a burger flipper can make $14/hour if he hangs around a year or two.

The stuff a lot of those lazy "UAW" workers have to go through on a daily basis would blow your juvenile little mind. I've wached them climb into 50 foot tall machines, worm their way between grease covered and hot components, to get to a stuck valve. I've watched them lift 100 ton presses and move them. I've watched them perform near miracles on getting and keeping crappy machines running purchased by clueless college grads (like myself).

Yet those same guys have to know how to reprogram robots and troubleshoot multi-million dollar computerized systems.

The funniest part is that I've seen just as many white-collar workers take advantage and abuse the company as I have blue-collar. Those same white collar workers wouldn't have 1/4 of what they do without the unions. Yet somehow unions are evil and blue collar workers are lazy.

Wake up. Moron.

 

[Hacp]

Way to go. When challenged, randomly change your argument to a new one. Now that you've been shot down factually on your initial arguments you jump to new ones. Classic.

$100K isn't insane or outrageous. I'm going to have to agree that you've never worked a professional job in your life. Yet. I know college grads who hire in as engineers and have 1/10th this guy's responsibility who make loads more. Of course, you still think this guy is a lazy good-for-nothing union loser who clocks in when he isn't working and makes overtime he doesn't deserve.

Another point in fact: unions aren't this giant evil conglomerate. Hey, I said they were too when I was 16. Before I knew the facts. Before I watched what companies will do to make a buck if left unchecked. Unions are the balance to corporate greed. Sometimes they go to far. Sometimes they don't.

The UAW is a perfect example. These guys have given HUGE consessions to help their companies. HUGE. However, that would not have been needed if these companies had actually managed themselves even halfway decently. I should know - I'm a salaried worker at one of them. For instance - the hire in rate is under $14/hour here. It isn't easy, or simple, work. You need a working grasp of statistical analysis (x-bar R charts, running averages, etc), a working grasp of basic mechanics (since operators are now expected to troubleshoot their own machines), and the ability to work on any shift without a choice, since you can get moved around at a manager's whim.

Not something your average burger flipper could pull off...... yet a burger flipper can make $14/hour if he hangs around a year or two.

The stuff a lot of those lazy "UAW" workers have to go through on a daily basis would blow your juvenile little mind. I've wached them climb into 50 foot tall machines, worm their way between grease covered and hot components, to get to a stuck valve. I've watched them lift 100 ton presses and move them. I've watched them perform near miracles on getting and keeping crappy machines running purchased by clueless college grads (like myself).

Yet those same guys have to know how to reprogram robots and troubleshoot multi-million dollar computerized systems.

The funniest part is that I've seen just as many white-collar workers take advantage and abuse the company as I have blue-collar. Those same white collar workers wouldn't have 1/4 of what they do without the unions. Yet somehow unions are evil and blue collar workers are lazy.

Wake up. Moron.

Responsibility? You could take a college grad working at starbucks, train him for a few months and he'll be just as effective as the previous conductor. All Unions do is contribute to government inefficiency.

 

[Red Dawn]

Responsibility? You could take a college grad working at starbucks, train him for a few months and he'll be just as effective as the previous conductor. All Unions do is contribute to government inefficiency.

No the College grad working @ Starbucks is more suited to be a Barista or at most a Mid Level Paper Pusher.

 

[Bowfinger]

Of course there is budget pressure. Thats cause most of the budget(60&#37 goes to paying union salaries and pensions, while 40% is left for taxpayer services.

You can lead a horse to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

We've given you the kind of information you need to start your journey out of ignorance and potentially become someone who is useful to the world (or at least to P&N). Unfortunately, you are determined to remain a clueless sock puppet, blindly parroting the nutter propaganda points without a glimmer of understanding or thought. Sad, but not unusual. You have good company here.

Were you ever to crawl out of Mommy's basement, you might learn that for most industries -- including government -- people expenses are the single greatest expense. You might also learn that people are the main component of "taxpayer services" (and of most other businesses that aren't producing actual physical goods, i.e., most American companies). You might even come to recognize you don't have the faintest understanding of how government actually works (hint: it's nothing like the caricature you've been indoctrinated with). And maybe, just maybe, you'll gain the maturity to realize you should keep your mouth closed and your ears and eyes open when you're tempted to start pontificating about subjects you have no actual knowledge of.

Until then, however, you're just another nobody in an army of wing-nut dupes, doomed to a life of raging on cue. You are entertaining, but totally useless for intelligent discussion, a pointless waster of electrons.

 

[CitizenKain]

You can't make Hacp think. He lives off his parents, so he doesn't have any real world experience, and just sends email forwards all day. He's a brainwashed college republican who runs around shrieking about the FREE MARKET while mooching off others.

 

[Siddhartha]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/nyregion/03mta.html?ref=nyregion



I say lets pay these lazy union employees what they're worth: 25-30k a year! If conductors started making 25k instead of 250k, we might get out of this fiscal mess.

Let's first cut the pay of your lazy ass to $1.00 a hour you are worth and then talk about cutting the pay of other people.

 

[fleshconsumed]

Anyone knows when Hacp graduates? It'd be really interesting to see if he changes his attitude/views when he has to find a job and support himself.

 

[MrEgo]

I was pretty liberal when I going through high school, but since then, my views have definitely started shifting to the right. 10 years later, after being on my own and supporting myself on just my income alone, I'm about right in the middle of the spectrum. I've seen both sides of the argument, and I understand the pros and cons of each ideology.

I don't know Hacp personally, but he does strike me as an uninformed conservative. His views may stay the same once he experiences the big bad world, but at least he will have a good reason to feel that way instead of sheepishly copy/pasting from the daily outrage blog.

 

[Acanthus]

Johns ideology is what is driving this country into the ground.

"we can find a way to pay someone less! govt inefficiency!"

Do you know what happens when we float the economy to the top? 2008.

People getting a fair wage with ONE THOUSAND HOURS OF OVERTIME logged into their payrolls is not appalling.

Not to mention you guys hit him with a trainload of facts about the private sector paying similarly or even more and he just keeps going.

I sincerely feel for the students that have to have this "professor."

 

[ShawnD1]

There is tremendous budget pressure within most government agencies. That's not to say there isn't waste in government. Of course there is. It's an inevitable byproduct of fallible and selfish people coupled with the poor accountability within larger organizations. If you want to see truly epic waste, however, spend time in a few Fortune 500 corporations.

Similar to government, private business has "you suck my dick, i suck your dick" going on. This happens a lot in big business. If I'm supposed to build some kind of electrical system and I need to pick between the Semens system and the Eaton system, I'll probably order based on which company rep sucks my dick the hardest.
Fisher vs Aldrich chemicals for my reactors? Again, I will use company money to buy from the seller gave me the most hand outs.

 

[sao123]

Responsibility? You could take a college grad working at starbucks, train him for a few months and he'll be just as effective as the previous conductor. All Unions do is contribute to government inefficiency.

apparently you fail at understanding the skilled part of skilled labor. These are trained professionals. You cant just stick some college junkie into the position and expect the same results.

Train engineers and conductors got to years of schooling, with yearly upkeep on licenses and certifications. Driving a train a hundred cars long with hundreds of people or hazardous materials aint like driving your chevy to the mall friday night to hang with the kiddies.

if you want to eliminate government waste? how about reducing welfare handouts, instead of trying to reduce pay to people who actually work for it.

 

[ShawnD1]

Train engineers and conductors got to years of schooling, with yearly upkeep on licenses and certifications. Driving a train a hundred cars long with hundreds of people or hazardous materials aint like driving your chevy to the mall friday night to hang with the kiddies.

Further proof that the government slows things down. You shouldn't need a license to drive a train loaded with nitrocubane or ammonium perchlorate. We should let the free market handle this. We'll put untrained baristas at the wheel and save thousands!

 

[Hacp]

apparently you fail at understanding the skilled part of skilled labor. These are trained professionals. You cant just stick some college junkie into the position and expect the same results.

Train engineers and conductors got to years of schooling, with yearly upkeep on licenses and certifications. Driving a train a hundred cars long with hundreds of people or hazardous materials aint like driving your chevy to the mall friday night to hang with the kiddies.

if you want to eliminate government waste? how about reducing welfare handouts, instead of trying to reduce pay to people who actually work for it.

So you're telling me a college grad can't learn the ins and outs after a year of training?

 

[Hacp]

Johns ideology is what is driving this country into the ground.

"we can find a way to pay someone less! govt inefficiency!"

Do you know what happens when we float the economy to the top? 2008.

People getting a fair wage with ONE THOUSAND HOURS OF OVERTIME logged into their payrolls is not appalling.

Not to mention you guys hit him with a trainload of facts about the private sector paying similarly or even more and he just keeps going.

I sincerely feel for the students that have to have this "professor."

Fair wage means free market which means the unions and government needs to get its slimy hands off. I would have no problem with the same conductor making the same amount of money if he were in a private company. Why? Because if the private company overpays the conductor, the private company fails and a new company will sprout up and hire the same conductor for less.

 

[fleshconsumed]

Hacp. Please answer the question. When are you graduating/entering free market/real world?

 

[Hacp]

Hacp. Please answer the question. When are you graduating/entering free market/real world?

Give me your address and phone number along with your SS# and I might tell you.

 

[sao123]

So you're telling me a college grad can't learn the ins and outs after a year of training?

no. If the college kid wanted the job, they should have chosen railroad school instead of college.

Its (2) 20 week courses of school, with an actual degree at the end, recertification every 2 years. $25K out of pocket, there are no grants.
Minimum 21 years of age. No criminal history in the last 8 years. No drunk driving record ever. 1st drunk driving results in immediate suspension of certification.

and that doesnt even include your hazmat training or passenger train certification.

 

[Hacp]

no. If the college kid wanted the job, they should have chosen railroad school instead of college.

Its (2) 20 week courses of school, with an actual degree at the end, recertification every 2 years. $25K out of pocket, there are no grants.
Minimum 21 years of age. No criminal history in the last 8 years. No drunk driving record ever. 1st drunk driving results in immediate suspension of certification.

So there are plenty of people qualified enough to replace the conductor then. The only thing stopping taxpayers from getting a better deal is the unions.

 

[fleshconsumed]

Give me your address and phone number along with your SS# and I might tell you.

ROFL. What's the problem? Are you really that afraid of giving out a date? It's just a date. Or are you afraid that you won't be able to graduate on time?

I graduated spring 2007. See? Not that hard.

Now please, would you tell your graduation date. I promise I won't make fun of it, I'm just genuinely curious to know when you graduate so that I can compare your responses before and after.

 

[Hacp]

ROFL. What's the problem? Are you really that afraid of giving out a date? It's just a date. Or are you afraid that you won't be able to graduate on time?

I graduated spring 2007. See? Not that hard.

Now please, would you tell your graduation date. I promise I won't make fun of it, I'm just genuinely curious to know when you graduate so that I can compare your responses before and after.

So you're not giving me your private info? I just want a plain old SS# and some other personal information. If you give me the info and I can verify it, I will provide you with your date. If you want a date so bad, I can also provide a paypal address. It'll cost 100 bucks.

 

[ShawnD1]

So there are plenty of people qualified enough to replace the conductor then. The only thing stopping taxpayers from getting a better deal is the unions.

Nope. Not too many people have the certification required to drive a train. That's why they get paid so well.

Everyone and their dog knows how to fix a computer, so most A+ tech support jobs pay incredibly bad. Do you see how this works?

 

[Hacp]

Nope. Not too many people have the certification required to drive a train. That's why they get paid so well.

Everyone and their dog knows how to fix a computer, so most A+ tech support jobs pay incredibly bad. Do you see how this works?

Or maybe they don't have a certification because they know they won't get a job because a union guy already has it. Its a 1 year certification. Not a huge barrier of entry. If the guy's job was open to the free market, it would have already been taken for a lower salary by someone willing to work harder and cheaper.