MSNBC-Melissa Harris-Perry says "kids belong to whole communities"

[werepossum]

Fact: Food distribution issues had nothing to do with poverty levels in the 50s.

Fact: Advances in farming technology during the 50s actually caused massive unemployment (primarily among blacks in the South migrating from rural areas to the Northern cities in search of employment) and was the predominent reason for increased poverty levels during this period.

Two sides of the same coin, really. Advances in farming technology made it possible to produce more food with fewer people, leading directly to more people in poverty because they had no jobs. However, the relatively high cost of food before that point also led to poverty, in two ways. First, if something essential like food is expensive, each wage earner has less income available to spend on other things, meaning fewer (and less well-paid) non-food-producing jobs and therefore more poverty. And second, low productivity in food production means that the majority of these jobs must be low paid - and thus, they are the working poor. If one defines poverty as a lack of food security - a wide-spread definition prior to mechanized farming - the vast majority of people were poor even though they were employed. Thus mechanized farming largely abolished poverty as it was then understood, so that now our definition of poverty includes air conditioned apartments and flat screen HD televisions and XBoxes and automobiles and hundred dollar tennis shoes.

Incidentally I can remember when my grandfather switched from mules to a tractor. It was in the early to mid sixties.

 

[werepossum]

Hunger and poverty are related.

Malnutrition was a significant problem in the US before the mass-fortification of foods began in the late 50s. What causes malnutrition? That's a food quantity, quality, and access problem... ie, hunger and poverty.

Malnutrition can also be a driver for poverty. Seminal studies in Britain in the very late nineteenth/very early twentieth century found that low wage families' children tended to be dull, non-inquisitive, and poor students because of malnutrition, thus dooming them to the same subsistence jobs as their fathers and mothers. Childhood deaths could also be greatly reduced, and funerals were one key expense among the very, very poor, so that often death insurance and non-covered expenses knocked out some of the food budget for everyone except the father - who had to be kept in working shape or the family had no income, and thus took a greatly disproportionate chunk of the food budget. Experimental private charity programs to provide better nutrition via supplemental food gifts showed that to a large extent this artificial deficit could be erased.

Nowadays we have the opposite problem and obesity is rampant among the poor, but malnutrition can still occur from poor diet.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Two sides of the same coin, really. Advances in farming technology made it possible to produce more food with fewer people, leading directly to more people in poverty because they had no jobs. However, the relatively high cost of food before that point also led to poverty, in two ways. First, if something essential like food is expensive, each wage earner has less income available to spend on other things, meaning fewer (and less well-paid) non-food-producing jobs and therefore more poverty. And second, low productivity in food production means that the majority of these jobs must be low paid - and thus, they are the working poor. If one defines poverty as a lack of food security - a wide-spread definition prior to mechanized farming - the vast majority of people were poor even though they were employed. Thus mechanized farming largely abolished poverty as it was then understood, so that now our definition of poverty includes air conditioned apartments and flat screen HD televisions and XBoxes and automobiles and hundred dollar tennis shoes.

Incidentally I can remember when my grandfather switched from mules to a tractor. It was in the early to mid sixties.

Good points. Here's a little color on food prices during that period. It's interesting to note that food prices were very high in the 40s and significantly moderated during the 50s.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40545.pdf

See Figure 2 on Page 6.

 

[fskimospy]

This was a good response to this whole uproar over on Andrew Sullivan's blog:

Look, none of us want your kids, okay? None of us want to take them away from you, or force you to make certain decisions. She is saying that we all need to think of children as a collective asset of our society. I don’t want your kids, but I do want your kids to grow up educated, productive, and thoughtful members of society. That’s good for me, for my kids, and everyone else. That’s why we need to vote to fund schools, to keep funding for school lunches and other programs that benefit less well-off kids, not mention public preschools and all-day kindergartens, programs that are proven effective.

My in-laws would probably vote to cut funding for public education because their kids don’t go to public schools, and anyway they think the curriculum is extremely suspect because it doesn’t involve enough Christian(ist!) values. They think that raising their kids is a private endeavor, and increasingly try to do it away from society. This intensely private mindset is what Harris-Perry is railing against. Society has an interest in the welfare of our kids, and we should continue to try to support them as best we can. It’s called a civilization. Everybody should try it.

 

[nehalem256]

This was a good response to this whole uproar over on Andrew Sullivan's blog:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2312365

D: Civilization not found

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

This was a good response to this whole uproar over on Andrew Sullivan's blog:

How does Andrew Sullivan know what she meant? How did he extract so much detail from so little information? It's obvious that he's just guessing at what she meant.

I'm surprised that she hasn't come forward yet to explain what she meant in her own words. Instead all we have is pure speculation from progressive apologists. Andrew Sullivan cannot speak for Harris-Perry and idle speculation on what she meant is not a "good response" in my opinion.

 

[Matt1970]

How does Andrew Sullivan know what she meant? How did he extract so much detail from so little information? It's obvious that he's just guessing at what she meant.

I'm surprised that she hasn't come forward yet to explain what she meant in her own words. Instead all we have is pure speculation from progressive apologists. Andrew Sullivan cannot speak for Harris-Perry and idle speculation on what she meant is not a "good response" in my opinion.

She has, but it's just damage control and in her own terms a double down.

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/04/09/why-caring-for-children-is-not-just-a-parents-job/

And she keeps mentioning the collective......

 

[fskimospy]

How does Andrew Sullivan know what she meant? How did he extract so much detail from so little information? It's obvious that he's just guessing at what she meant.

I'm surprised that she hasn't come forward yet to explain what she meant in her own words. Instead all we have is pure speculation from progressive apologists. Andrew Sullivan cannot speak for Harris-Perry and idle speculation on what she meant is not a "good response" in my opinion.

Andrew Sullivan is not a progressive, he is in fact an an avowed conservative.

 

[ivwshane]

Wow. I post her response, I quoted it and I linked to her blog and maybe one person read it.
Typical righty mentality when proven wrong change the subject. Sorry Charles you fell for it hookline and sinker.

 

[werepossum]

Andrew Sullivan is not a progressive, he is in fact an an avowed conservative.

LOL Sometimes I can't believe that progressives can be so stupid as to persist in believing that non-progressives are that stupid.

 

[werepossum]

Wow. I post her response, I quoted it and I linked to her blog and maybe one person read it.
Typical righty mentality when proven wrong change the subject. Sorry Charles you fell for it hookline and sinker.

I read it. My reaction was "I'll just sit on the couch since you've already climbed up on the cross."

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Wow. I post her response, I quoted it and I linked to her blog and maybe one person read it.
Typical righty mentality when proven wrong change the subject. Sorry Charles you fell for it hookline and sinker.

Sorry...I missed your post. I looked everywhere possible yesterday and couldn't find her response. I probably should have checked again today.

 

[fskimospy]

LOL Sometimes I can't believe that progressives can be so stupid as to persist in believing that non-progressives are that stupid.

Please define to me exactly what political positions of Andrew Sullivan's you believe are 'progressive'.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Andrew Sullivan is not a progressive, he is in fact an an avowed conservative.

Is that why he made #19 on Forbes "The 25 Most Influential Liberals In The U.S. Media" list? Now your just being silly.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/22/influential-media-obama-oped-cx_tv_ee_hra_0122liberal.html

http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/22/influential-media-obama-oped-cx_tv_ee_hra_0122liberal_slide_8.html

 

[xBiffx]

Is that why he made #19 on Forbes "The 25 Most Influential Liberals In The U.S. Media" list? Now your just being silly.

Left is right, up is down. Black is white in another thread here. Just sayin....

 

[nehalem256]

Is that why he made #19 on Forbes "The 25 Most Influential Liberals In The U.S. Media" list? Now your just being silly.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/22/influential-media-obama-oped-cx_tv_ee_hra_0122liberal.html

http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/22/influential-media-obama-oped-cx_tv_ee_hra_0122liberal_slide_8.html

I guess we need that liberal to English dictionary again

 

[monovillage]

Left is right, up is down. Black is white in another thread here. Just sayin....

Q: How can you tell when a progressive is lying?

A: When their lips are moving or they're typing.

 

[fskimospy]

Is that why he made #19 on Forbes "The 25 Most Influential Liberals In The U.S. Media" list? Now your just being silly.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/22/influential-media-obama-oped-cx_tv_ee_hra_0122liberal.html

http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/22/influential-media-obama-oped-cx_tv_ee_hra_0122liberal_slide_8.html

Did you read his own entry? Their reasons for labeling him 'liberal' were his support of gay rights and endorsement of Obama. That's it. You know that rejecting the Republican Party doesn't make you a liberal, right?

I think that actual limited government conservatives would view ceasing government sponsored discrimination against gays to be a conservative value. If you feel that he's a liberal, spell out the positions that you believe he holds that make him liberal. I bet you I can find far, far more positions he holds that are conservative.

EDIT: For his response to the Forbes article, read here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2009/01/forbes-definition-of-liberal/206413/

Does he sound like a liberal to you?

 

[ivwshane]

Change of subject number 2.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Change of subject number 2.

Well FWIW I read your post of her clarification. Makes much more sense and I haven't a problem with it.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Change of subject number 2.

Personally, I appreciate a little latitude in the area of tangent discussions. Perhaps you should spend more time in DC where such things matter.

 

[zinfamous]

Sorry, that preface simply doesn't apply here. There is no conclusion being drawn by that graph. It is simply showing child poverty rates with regards to number of parents. No need to say one caused the other. The numbers speak for themselves.

The logic contained within these statements is unfathomable.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

No surprise here that most of the people posting in this thread are on my ignore list. She never said state, she said community as in we should all care about all the children. When did it become a disgusting trait to possess empathy?

 

[xBiffx]

The logic contained within these statements is unfathomable.

Do tell. Exactly what needs explaining?

 

[xBiffx]

No surprise here that most of the people posting in this thread are on my ignore list. She never said state, she said community as in we should all care about all the children. When did it become a disgusting trait to possess empathy?

Perhaps you missed my post way back then. I'm probably on your ignore list so whats the use.

Edit: Here's a link. http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34856163&postcount=66